Andy Gray: UEFA should use goal difference to separate teams level on points.

Nick 0208 Ldn

As opposed to the head-to-head record having primacy.

Tonight's example being that Chelsea would have progressed in place of Shakhtar.

I'm always right

I'm quite fond of head-to-head

Levo

Wonder how much this is influenced by Chelsea being knocked out.

RK

Not goal difference in CL group stages, no. There's too few games.

Randall Flagg

Head to head is better IMO. It should be this way in the PL too.

But I do see argument for GD too.

Scrumpet

Of course they shouldn't.

A team in contention having a game at the end against a team that is already out would make a mockery of the whole thing.

NoLogo

Not at all. You're just being paranoid.

ItsEssexRob

I think Head to head is fairer despite us being knocked out by one away goal.

When its decided on GD it allows the possibility that a team with nothing to play for can get mauled, like tonight, whereas earlier in the competition they might have played the other team much harder.

With head to head that doesn't happen and allows a team to control their own destiny better. We shouldn't have conceded 2 to them, if it had've ended 2-1 to us we would have been through on GD.

NoLogo

I like the head to head comparison because than it's not only important to dominate the weaker teams in your group but also the be the better team in direct comparison to the stronger teams in your group.

Forevergiggs

I think they should just change the rules and let Chelsea go through straight to the knock-outs.

Head to Head is fair enough. What does goal difference mean when a team can play a second string XI any time after 4 games (and qualifying).

Danny1982

I'm sure it has nothing to do with that.. Mere coincidence.

kouroux

Chelsea are embarassing.To think they won the trophy last season

rcoobc

Andy Gray is a twat and we all know that.

Both systems have good and bad points. Goal Difference can be badly skewed by playing a team who has already qualified, and so puts out their B team. Head to Head can be broken in the following situation: When two teams are level on points and so looking to use their head to head to decide who qualifies. Let's call them "Team A" and "Team B" and assume they are playing each other; the game is a draw and Team A has the better head to head. However in the other game Team C who is playing Team D score in the final minute to also equal Team B and A on points. This is fine the Head to Head system still sorts this out, but you have the scenario were Team A are beating Team B on head to head, until Team C join them, and them Team B is the team in the lead instead.

I.E. events with nothing to do with either team can affect who goes through.

ItsEssexRob

It happens, no team has ever retained it in the CL format, we paid for our poor defensive performance vs shaktar at home really, when we could have won 2-1 or more and left it to GD or head to head in our favour.

Lets not forget City also are out and United left at this stage in a far easier group last season. It's the most depressing 6-1 i have watched though!

JustAFan

Yes Andy, lets change the rules because the current rules did not help a English side.

rcoobc

There are probably loads of better systems out there that no one has thought of

Paddy

No winning team has ever gone out in the group stage though

noodlehair

There's questionable credibility in goal difference as you get situations where teams are already through or out so no longer give a shit.

Head to head on the other hand is perfectly credible. It's a fucking cup competition.

rcoobc

They should use my hard way method. In the event of a tie, they use Hard Way points, where 'Hard Way Points' are 'Points Gained Against that team' x 'That teams total points in that competition'

If you beat the best team in the Premier League home and away, who finish on 100 points you get 600 hard way points. If you beat the worst team in the league home and away who finish on 10 points you get 60 points. Essentially you have two league tables, just like 'GD' now. 'PTS' 'HWP' with Goal Difference being the next criteria.

My first redcafe thread was about my HardWay method, and an argument I was having with a friend.

Wowi

Liverpool fans wanted the league to be decided on head-to-head in the season where the were close to us and that favoured them. English journos want GD to be the decider in CL when it favours an English team.

I think I see a pattern.

Rado_N

I agree with this.

GD is best for a league over a full season, but not for so few games and in a cup format.

Dirty Schwein

Although goal difference is more interesting for spectators, head-to-head is better for CL as it is a competition to see who is the best of the best in Europe, not who can score the most/concede the least. If 2 teams have same points, it goes to the team that was better when the two teams played each other which better resembles what the CL is about.

antohan

Cluj also crashed out on that basis, but kudos to Galatasaray for winning away to Braga as well.

Head to head is as fair as you will find: 6 games, tied on points, narrow down to the two you played against each other... No brainer really.

Sarni

That's basically how I see it .

gooDevil

I can think of one...

Dumbstar

And in an alternative reality:

Shakhtar scores 6 goals against some unpronounceable minnows, but Chelsea go through on head to head record. Some failed host comments on some pretend sports channel:

"That's a fair result, shows the quality of two teams and which is superior"

Revan

Where there are only a few games I think that head to head is the best way to go.

In leagues, I am pro goal difference.

Red Dreams

they use head to head at World Cup..not sure if so at the Euros.

nothing wrong with it.

Arruda

Here you go again

Nick 0208 Ldn

We should have two different systems for determining the better of second and third placed teams as opposed to the one for a tie between first and the runner-up.

Double head-to-head for the former category, one which also includes the results involving the side which wins the group.

If more than two clubs are equal then it comes down to rock, paper, scissors at an over long ceremony held in Monaco.

lysglimt

Over 6 games - head to head is more fair
Over an entire season - goal difference is more fair

Snow

Head to head clearly. Not a fan of away goals though. Losing 4-3 away and winning 2-1 at home doesn't merit that you were better than the opposition. Wouldn't mind if they'd scrap the away goal all together.

ghaliboy

Arruda

Me neither, I hate it. Though I think it serves the purpose of offsetting the advantage of playing home in the second leg.

Snow

The advantage should really about playing a team from pot 2, which chances are, will be a an opposition not as good as the ones from pot 1.

I think it's really harsh to drop out because of away goals. I prefer overtime and then penalties to finish it off. There are just too many variables that fuck with the away goal factor. I think the point of it is too encourage away teams to attack. I don't think it does that.

Snow

This pic really should have the creators name on it.

Dargonk

I'd prefer the head to head method used. There are only 6 games played and the final couple of games you have teams fielding weakened teams at times due to already being through.

At least with dead to head, you the team that has beaten the other goes through if equal on points. This way the draw doesn't effect it as much and the progression is in each teams hands

Arruda

I don't think it does either. Away teems, still play cautiously, and home teams play more cautiously than they would because suffering a home goal can be very detrimental. I also think it creates too many unfair situations. Suppose you win 1-0 away then start losing 1-0 home. You are now in a weird situation, that despite being drawn you will be terrified of suffering another goal the whole game. The team that played home first never had to go through that.

Manchester United elimination against Bayern was the perfect example of why I prefer to play home first. You're in control of the away goals after the first game, you know how many you have to score to turn the table in your favour.

Back on topic, no way goal difference should take preponderance. There are enough injustices implicit in a 6 games only league format, you don't need to add goal difference to that. As an example, Benfica played a very weak Barcelona team while neither Celtic or Spartak had that chance. In United's group, by luck of the calendar, Braga had to make two serious games against United while Cluj and Galtasaray were almost gifted a victory each. Using goal difference would only magnify this sort of (inevitable) problems.

rcoobc

Fuck off.

Thats a different level that is. I cant even begin to articulate that one. Mine is just a mathematical model for putting the "best team through".

Completely different level of mental.

MrMarcello

I guarantee he never dreamt of this ludicrous argument prior to matchday six when Chelsea were down on GD to the two clubs above them in the standing. It's an argument he thought up because Chelsea won the last matchday by a large margin against the last placed side while Shakhtar had already advanced irregardless of all group results, which completely skewed the actual group play prior to that final matchday. Shakhtar had a bigger GD lead heading into that matchday and only top of the group to play for.

If Juventus lose then there is no ludicrous comment from Gray. Wonder what his argument would be had Juve drawn - the Italian side would have both head-to-head and GD advantage over Chelsea.

I have a better point - Chelsea should have taken care of business in the previous five matches.