Andy Gray: UEFA should use goal difference to separate teams level on points.

rio's upper lip · 7th December 2012, 20:06

I actually agree with him. I don't really like the concept of away goals even in the knockout stages, and teams aren't really thinking about away goals at all in head-to-heads in the group stage. When you face a team like Genk away or whatever in the first match, the first thought in the managers head isn't "we better put a few past this lot to ensure we don't get beat on away goals". Three points is always the main goal, as it should be. If I'm not mistaken, the whole point of the rule was to make away teams play a little more adventurous, but I'd imagine that teams would play just about the same as they do with the rule in play.

I mean, the Premier League is decided on GD, and I think it works fine. You could argue that teams SHOULD be more focused on head-to-heads since this is the case, but I really don't think its necessary.

Or I might be full of shit.

SilentWitness · 7th December 2012, 20:09

Head to Head is the fairest way of doing it in my opinion.

Goal Difference to me is on the same wavelength as when people consider possession as meaning a team is more deserving of the win than the other. With goals there could be dubious decisions (Such as Shakhtar's this season, can you imagine if that was the goal that let them through?) or lucky goals etc. A win is a win to me no matter how many goals you score.

duffer · 7th December 2012, 20:11

I am a fan of head to head myself (faling foul of it this time) and think it should be used in the Premier League.

Gazza · 7th December 2012, 20:14

Andy Gray's expertise is in dissecting what happens in an individual incident on a football pitch. He's brilliant at that. Not interested in his opinions otherwise.

Goal difference or head-to-head, it's impossible to say one is fairer than the other. It's a matter of opinion after that and you could argue either way.

Snow · 7th December 2012, 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by rio's upper lip

I actually agree with him. I don't really like the concept of away goals even in the knockout stages, and teams aren't really thinking about away goals at all in head-to-heads in the group stage. When you face a team like Genk away or whatever in the first match, the first thought in the managers head isn't "we better put a few past this lot to ensure we don't get beat on away goals". Three points is always the main goal, as it should be. If I'm not mistaken, the whole point of the rule was to make away teams play a little more adventurous, but I'd imagine that teams would play just about the same as they do with the rule in play.

I mean, the Premier League is decided on GD, and I think it works fine. You could argue that teams SHOULD be more focused on head-to-heads since this is the case, but I really don't think its necessary.

Or I might be full of shit.

You can have head to head without the away goal rule. Andy was only talking about head to head and the pretty much only reason why he's talking about it now is because and English team got knocked out because of it.

duffer · 7th December 2012, 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow

You can have head to head without the away goal rule. Andy was only talking about head to head and the pretty much only reason why he's talking about it now is because and English team got knocked out because of it.

That's his job though, he's the host of a daily football phone in show. They talk about all manner of unimportant shite.

Ryan's Beard · 7th December 2012, 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by RK

Not goal difference in CL group stages, no. There's too few games.

I agree with this, goal difference is good if it's averaged over a large(r) number of games in a league, reduces the contribution of any teams getting destroyed because they "have nothing to play for" significantly.

Head to head is the best idea for small groups though I think, not enough time to even out any 6-1s, for example.

x42bn6 · 7th December 2012, 20:35

I don't really have a strong opinion either way. Taking more games into account is always fairer, but where's the fun in that? The Champions League would be pretty boring if it was actually a physical league as opposed to knockout stages (with one group stage in the middle). One-off games give the opportunity for an upset, which is always exciting.

Having said that, I think head-to-head before goal difference is more boring in general. I think it's particularly silly in large leagues, where you can decide placement earlier than goal difference. When you are level on points, in head-to-head, it's likely already decided. With goal difference, anything can happen, such as Torres scoring goals to overhaul a team on goal difference.

Some people say head-to-head is easier to predict - it's only easy when two teams finish on equal points. Three teams is difficult. Four or more? Give it a try.

rcoobc · 7th December 2012, 20:35

To be fair we should have a look at the actual results:

Chelsea and Shakhtar both finished on the same amount of points; 10. They also got the exact same points from the exact same teams; 1 from Juventus, 3 from each other, 6 from Nordsjælland.

On the final day Chelsea beat Nordsjælland whom had nothing to play for, whilst Shakhtar lost to Juventus who had everything to play for. Because Chelsea were playing Nordsjælland who had nothing to play for, they put 6 past them. Because Shakhar were playing Juventus who had everything to play for, they couldn't. When Shakhtar played Nordsjælland they had everything to play for still, in fact Shaktars home game against them was their first group game, whereas it was Chelseas last game.

So what was fairer to use, head-to-head or goal difference? Well given all the above the answer is clearly head-to-head except Chelsea didn't actually go out on "just" head to head. They both beat each other once, by a single goal. What they went out on was the aways goal rule, as part of head-to-head.

On balance, away goals rule is about as unfair as goal difference in my opinion.

Ryan's Beard · 7th December 2012, 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcoobc

On balance, away goals rule is about as unfair as goal difference in my opinion.

To be fair to away goals, at least it's always under your control (in theory). Yes different games might have different levels of importance attached to them but if you ship 2 away goals it's still you that's conceded. With GD it could be someone else who lets 6 in and ruins your day.

The whole ET and Refs gifting shit away goals etc is a problem, true, but it's probably better to tackle the root of those problems than the results they have.

Gazza · 7th December 2012, 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcoobc

On the final day Chelsea beat Nordsjælland whom had nothing to play for, whilst Shakhtar lost to Juventus who had everything to play for. Because Chelsea were playing Nordsjælland who had nothing to play for, the put 6 past them. Because Shakhar were playing Juventus who had everything to play for, they couldn't. When Shakhtar played Nordsjælland they had everything to play for still, in fact Shaktars home game against them was their first group game, whereas it was Chelseas last game.

So what was fairer to use, head-to-head or goal difference? Well given all the above the answer is clearly head-to-head except Chelsea didn't actually go out on "just" head to head. They both beat each other once, by a single goal. What they went out on was the aways goal rule, as part of head-to-head.

On balance, away goals rule is about as unfair as goal difference in my opinion.

They couldn't because Juventus are too good to put 6 past. Chelsea were able to do so against Nords because of the gulf in quality between the teams.

rcoobc · 7th December 2012, 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gazza

They couldn't because Juventus are too good to put 6 past. Chelsea were able to do so against Nords because of the gulf in quality between the teams.

Aye, but if it had been the other way around (Chelsea playing Juventus on the final day and Shaktar playing Nords on the final day) then Shaktar would have put 6 past them.

Shakhtar played Nords at home on day 1, when they were full of hope and confidence. Chelsea played them on day 6 when they were full of despair.

Giggsforever · 7th December 2012, 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by rio's upper lip

I actually agree with him. I don't really like the concept of away goals even in the knockout stages, and teams aren't really thinking about away goals at all in head-to-heads in the group stage. When you face a team like Genk away or whatever in the first match, the first thought in the managers head isn't "we better put a few past this lot to ensure we don't get beat on away goals". Three points is always the main goal, as it should be. If I'm not mistaken, the whole point of the rule was to make away teams play a little more adventurous, but I'd imagine that teams would play just about the same as they do with the rule in play.

I mean, the Premier League is decided on GD, and I think it works fine. You could argue that teams SHOULD be more focused on head-to-heads since this is the case, but I really don't think its necessary.

Or I might be full of shit.

The difference is that the PL is 38 games and goal difference is somewhat more fair than over only 6 games in the CL. Head-to-head is the most fair in the CL because of that.

Dirty Schwein · 7th December 2012, 21:55

As I have said before, it shouldn't matter about goal difference if it can be decided on a head to head basis because the CL is all about the BEST teams and this is better derived from when these teams play each other. In the League (e.g EPL), goal difference is a better indicator for the best team in a league because over the course of the season, it shows which teams performed the best on a median level, and this works because there are 38 games and usually most teams have something to play for right until the last game or two but in the CL, a team can get knocked out of the competition pretty much in 3 or 4 games which makes it unfair on the teams that had to play that knocked out team when they still had a chance in the competition.

Arruda · 7th December 2012, 21:57

What about poor Braga, which had to do two serious games against Manchester United whilst Galatasaray and Cluj were almost gifted 3 points each due to luck of the calendar? Or Benfica, who played an atrociously immature and weak Barcelona team whilst their other rivals had to make two tough games against their first team?

A lot of unfair things will happen in a 6-games long league. Not much we can do about it. But head-to-head is clearly a better contribution do diminish those natural inequalities than goal difference would be.

Dirty Schwein · 7th December 2012, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arruda

What about poor Braga, which had to do two serious games against Manchester United whilst Galatasaray and Cluj were almost gifted 3 points each due to luck of the calendar? Or Benfica, who played an atrociously immature and weak Barcelona team whilst their other rivals had to make two tough games against their first team?

A lot of unfair things will happen in a 6-games long league. Not much we can do about it. But head-to-head is clearly a better contribution do diminish those natural inequalities than goal difference would be.

I was going to say this. This pretty much concludes the debate as far as I'm concerned.

Cantona'sCollar · 7th December 2012, 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arruda

What about poor Braga, which had to do two serious games against Manchester United whilst Galatasaray and Cluj were almost gifted 3 points each due to luck of the calendar? Or Benfica, who played an atrociously immature and weak Barcelona team whilst their other rivals had to make two tough games against their first team?

A lot of unfair things will happen in a 6-games long league. Not much we can do about it. But head-to-head is clearly a better contribution do diminish those natural inequalities than goal difference would be.

Nail on head here. Not only about the timing of the games, but also the fact that 6 games is simply not enough for goal difference to even out. A team having one great game, a 6-0 or something, just kills the group if the teams are relatively close quality wise (and so points wise). No brainer, head to head is the right decision.

Snow · 7th December 2012, 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by duffer

That's his job though, he's the host of a daily football phone in show. They talk about all manner of unimportant shite.

And that's fine. He needs people to call in. I don't agree with him though. I do feel sorry for Chelsea though (in a football way, I'm fine with them being out) because I did loath those times United went out of the knockout stages because of away goals. It's never been fair. Says a lot that you'd prefer penalties to decide a game.

Gazza · 8th December 2012, 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcoobc

Aye, but if it had been the other way around (Chelsea playing Juventus on the final day and Shaktar playing Nords on the final day) then Shaktar would have put 6 past them.

Shakhtar played Nords at home on day 1, when they were full of hope and confidence. Chelsea played them on day 6 when they were full of despair.

Come on, this is Conjecture Central

Stick to what you can measure tangibly, that is what counts

Ruud10 · 8th December 2012, 02:43

Head to head is more "fair", by far.

Ridiculous argument by Andy Gray, Adrian Durham and all the other morons who are peddling this argument because poor Chelsea got knocked out.

Nick 0208 Ldn · 8th December 2012, 02:54

Part of it probably stems from familiarity, GD is the system we sue here. In that context i certainly have to disagree with those who think head-to-head should be the deciding factor here in the Premier League, if fairness if your aim i don't think that holds up at all.

duffer · 8th December 2012, 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow

Says a lot that you'd prefer penalties to decide a game.

Eh? Wherer did you get that idea? I think penalties are terrible way to settle a game.

Arruda · 8th December 2012, 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by duffer

Eh? Wherer did you get that idea? I think penalties are terrible way to settle a game.

I think he's talking in a general way, in that he'd prefer penalties to decide a game rather than away goals (when the situation applies).

rcoobc · 8th December 2012, 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gazza

Come on, this is Conjecture Central

Stick to what you can measure tangibly, that is what counts

How is it?! This happens all the time, its one of the most well known phenomenons in football and the reason that virtually every sport in the world has playoff rounds after the league stage.

Look at the Premier League from 2010:

In the final game of the season Man Utd who are trying to win the league play Stoke City who have nothing to play for.

Man Utd 4 - 0 Stoke City

Likewise Chelsea who are also trying to win the league are playing Wigan who have nothing to play for.

Chelsea 8 - 0 Wigan Athletic

Now lets go back a few years to 2007. Having already won the Premier League Man Utd who have nothing to play for play West Ham United who are trying to survive:

Man Utd 0 - 1 West Ham Utd.

That is, the newly crowned Champions of England play one of the worst teams in England. They play them with nothing to play for but play well regardless, yet lose.

There are always exceptions to the rule, when pride gets in the way. In International Football you rarely see teams giving up even if they are already out, because of the pride associated with wearing the shirt one last time. However the same is not true at all with Club Football, especially with the Champions League or Europa League. After being knocked out, or already having already qualified teams stop trying because its a waste of energy.

This season after already having qualified:

Galatasaray 1 - 0 Man Utd
Man Utd 0 - 1 CFR Cluj
Barcelona 0 - 0 Benfica

For that last one the attendance was 50,659, Xavi didn't play, Iniesta didn't play, Messi came on for 30 minutes.

Honestly, teams with nothing to play for don't try! Call it whatever you like, whether or not its a conscious decision they don't.

Arruda · 8th December 2012, 15:35

Focus rcoobc, focus. I agree with your point but Benfica didn't win in Nou Camp. Though they should have.

rcoobc · 8th December 2012, 16:11

I was so used to writing losses... But yeah I think that Barcelona game is a good example of this despite it "only being a draw", not that the rest aren't.

ghaliboy · 29th January 2013, 02:50

I know this is offtopic but is everyone still happy they don't have to listen to his gobshite commentating? Have a listen to him in this it's fucking unreal.

What a monumental cock walloper. So glad he doesn't commentate anymore..

steeeb · 29th January 2013, 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentWitness

Head to Head is the fairest way of doing it in my opinion.

Goal Difference to me is on the same wavelength as when people consider possession as meaning a team is more deserving of the win than the other. With goals there could be dubious decisions (Such as Shakhtar's this season, can you imagine if that was the goal that let them through?) or lucky goals etc. A win is a win to me no matter how many goals you score.

The main reason for me head to head is better, is that when you have a great team and a couple of dead rubber teams in a group then the good team might beat them 5-0 and then on the last couple of matches put out a weaker team as they're already through and only win 2-0.

So it's fairer to go on head to head.

Steven Seagull · 29th January 2013, 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghaliboy

I know this is offtopic but is everyone still happy they don't have to listen to his gobshite commentating? Have a listen to him in this it's fucking unreal.

What a monumental cock walloper. So glad he doesn't commentate anymore..

Not really. Now I have to hear more of Niall Quim.

adamwest · 29th January 2013, 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghaliboy

I know this is offtopic but is everyone still happy they don't have to listen to his gobshite commentating? Have a listen to him in this it's fucking unreal.

What a monumental cock walloper. So glad he doesn't commentate anymore..

Ha, I quite like Andy Gray. Keys was and still is an epic bellend though.

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7th December 2012, 20:06	#41 (permalink)
rio's upper lip Reserve Team Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: <enter clever line here> Posts: 1,156	I actually agree with him. I don't really like the concept of away goals even in the knockout stages, and teams aren't really thinking about away goals at all in head-to-heads in the group stage. When you face a team like Genk away or whatever in the first match, the first thought in the managers head isn't "we better put a few past this lot to ensure we don't get beat on away goals". Three points is always the main goal, as it should be. If I'm not mistaken, the whole point of the rule was to make away teams play a little more adventurous, but I'd imagine that teams would play just about the same as they do with the rule in play. I mean, the Premier League is decided on GD, and I think it works fine. You could argue that teams SHOULD be more focused on head-to-heads since this is the case, but I really don't think its necessary. Or I might be full of shit.

7th December 2012, 20:09	#42 (permalink)
SilentWitness Everton fan Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Scotland. Posts: 4,259	Head to Head is the fairest way of doing it in my opinion. Goal Difference to me is on the same wavelength as when people consider possession as meaning a team is more deserving of the win than the other. With goals there could be dubious decisions (Such as Shakhtar's this season, can you imagine if that was the goal that let them through?) or lucky goals etc. A win is a win to me no matter how many goals you score.

7th December 2012, 20:11	#43 (permalink)
duffer Sensible and not a complete jerk like most opposition fans on the Caf Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chelsea fan. Posts: 10,696	I am a fan of head to head myself (faling foul of it this time) and think it should be used in the Premier League.

7th December 2012, 20:14	#44 (permalink)
Gazza Magic Carpet Pilot Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: "some place faaar away... yes, that'll do" Posts: 27,938	Andy Gray's expertise is in dissecting what happens in an individual incident on a football pitch. He's brilliant at that. Not interested in his opinions otherwise. Goal difference or head-to-head, it's impossible to say one is fairer than the other. It's a matter of opinion after that and you could argue either way.

7th December 2012, 20:35	#48 (permalink)
x42bn6 First Team Regular Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: 西田麻衣の谷間. Being a nerd, geek and virgin Posts: 17,794	I don't really have a strong opinion either way. Taking more games into account is always fairer, but where's the fun in that? The Champions League would be pretty boring if it was actually a physical league as opposed to knockout stages (with one group stage in the middle). One-off games give the opportunity for an upset, which is always exciting. Having said that, I think head-to-head before goal difference is more boring in general. I think it's particularly silly in large leagues, where you can decide placement earlier than goal difference. When you are level on points, in head-to-head, it's likely already decided. With goal difference, anything can happen, such as Torres scoring goals to overhaul a team on goal difference. Some people say head-to-head is easier to predict - it's only easy when two teams finish on equal points. Three teams is difficult. Four or more? Give it a try.

7th December 2012, 20:35	#49 (permalink)
rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: The treble gone Posts: 23,019	To be fair we should have a look at the actual results: Chelsea and Shakhtar both finished on the same amount of points; 10. They also got the exact same points from the exact same teams; 1 from Juventus, 3 from each other, 6 from Nordsjælland. On the final day Chelsea beat Nordsjælland whom had nothing to play for, whilst Shakhtar lost to Juventus who had everything to play for. Because Chelsea were playing Nordsjælland who had nothing to play for, they put 6 past them. Because Shakhar were playing Juventus who had everything to play for, they couldn't. When Shakhtar played Nordsjælland they had everything to play for still, in fact Shaktars home game against them was their first group game, whereas it was Chelseas last game. So what was fairer to use, head-to-head or goal difference? Well given all the above the answer is clearly head-to-head except Chelsea didn't actually go out on "just" head to head. They both beat each other once, by a single goal. What they went out on was the aways goal rule, as part of head-to-head. On balance, away goals rule is about as unfair as goal difference in my opinion.

7th December 2012, 21:55	#54 (permalink)
Dirty Schwein Should Have Known Better Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: The Infirmary Posts: 1,394	As I have said before, it shouldn't matter about goal difference if it can be decided on a head to head basis because the CL is all about the BEST teams and this is better derived from when these teams play each other. In the League (e.g EPL), goal difference is a better indicator for the best team in a league because over the course of the season, it shows which teams performed the best on a median level, and this works because there are 38 games and usually most teams have something to play for right until the last game or two but in the CL, a team can get knocked out of the competition pretty much in 3 or 4 games which makes it unfair on the teams that had to play that knocked out team when they still had a chance in the competition.

7th December 2012, 21:57	#55 (permalink)
Arruda First Team Sub Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Porto Posts: 5,338	What about poor Braga, which had to do two serious games against Manchester United whilst Galatasaray and Cluj were almost gifted 3 points each due to luck of the calendar? Or Benfica, who played an atrociously immature and weak Barcelona team whilst their other rivals had to make two tough games against their first team? A lot of unfair things will happen in a 6-games long league. Not much we can do about it. But head-to-head is clearly a better contribution do diminish those natural inequalities than goal difference would be.

8th December 2012, 02:43	#60 (permalink)
Ruud10 Reserve Team Player Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: California Posts: 4,277	Head to head is more "fair", by far. Ridiculous argument by Andy Gray, Adrian Durham and all the other morons who are peddling this argument because poor Chelsea got knocked out.

8th December 2012, 02:54	#61 (permalink)
Nick 0208 Ldn News 24 Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: "I'd also like to remind you that we've had bad times here. The club stood by me. All my staff stood by me. The players stood by me. So your job now is to stand by our new manager. That is important. " Posts: 15,445	Part of it probably stems from familiarity, GD is the system we sue here. In that context i certainly have to disagree with those who think head-to-head should be the deciding factor here in the Premier League, if fairness if your aim i don't think that holds up at all.

8th December 2012, 15:35	#65 (permalink)
Arruda First Team Sub Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Porto Posts: 5,338	Focus rcoobc, focus. I agree with your point but Benfica didn't win in Nou Camp. Though they should have.

8th December 2012, 16:11	#66 (permalink)
rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: The treble gone Posts: 23,019	I was so used to writing losses... But yeah I think that Barcelona game is a good example of this despite it "only being a draw", not that the rest aren't.

29th January 2013, 02:50	#67 (permalink)
ghaliboy First Team Sub Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Sydchester Posts: 7,223	I know this is offtopic but is everyone still happy they don't have to listen to his gobshite commentating? Have a listen to him in this it's fucking unreal. What a monumental cock walloper. So glad he doesn't commentate anymore..