Arsecafe: Where now for Arsenal?

B Cantona · 29th November 2009, 19:25

Out of the title race? Possibly

Unlucky today? Yes and no. Thought it was a generous decision giving the foul on Cech, though they'd still have been a goal down. And they were very lucky because Sagna blatantly fouled Anelka where he could have been sent off and a penalty given...

The same old problem. Van Persie injured, the other strikers just don't look good enough. And conceeded some pretty poor goals too

Do Arsenal now fall back and end up competing with the likes of Liverpool and Spurs for 3rd / 4th? Or can they regroup from here and go on a run? The body language of Fabregas particularly at the end didn't bode well

Tumbling-Dice · 29th November 2009, 19:27

Check their run of games in Jan/Feb.

Quote:

Saturday, 9 January 2010
Barclays Premier League
Arsenal v Everton, 15:00

Sunday, 17 January 2010
Barclays Premier League
Bolton v Arsenal, 16:00

Wednesday, 27 January 2010
Barclays Premier League
Aston Villa v Arsenal, 19:45

Sunday, 31 January 2010
Barclays Premier League
Arsenal v Man Utd, 16:00

Saturday, 6 February 2010
Barclays Premier League
Chelsea v Arsenal, 15:00

Tuesday, 9 February 2010
Barclays Premier League
Arsenal v Liverpool, 19:45

Saturday, 20 February 2010
Barclays Premier League
Arsenal v Sunderland, 15:00

Saturday, 27 February 2010
Barclays Premier League
Stoke v Arsenal, 15:00

Dumbstar · 29th November 2009, 19:28

After the sale of their only strength-striker, Adebayor, I couldn't see them doing anything other than fighting for 3rd/4th before the season started. Obviously, wasn't expecting our injury list to fit a machine room so we're in there with them now. Relying on one striker (Van Persie) is as dangerous a folly as us relying on Torres as our only frontman.

JazzG · 29th November 2009, 19:28

Be interesting to see how we react. The scoreline flattered Chelsea but they were rightful winners, no doubt about it.

We are a bit short up top with RvP and Bendtner out, both players have decent hold up play which is vital for us but Eduardo and Vela while both excellent finishers do look suspect in build up play, both look very short of confidence as well, Eduardo in particular.

I got a feeling we will be stuck in some kind of middle ground, higher than the 4th place battle but not good enough to compete for the title

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dumpstar

After the sale of their only strength-striker, Adebayor, I couldn't see them doing anything other than fighting for 3rd/4th before the season started. Obviously, wasn't expecting our injury list to fit a machine room so we're in there with them now. Relying on one striker (Van Persie) is as dangerous a folly as our relying on Torres as our only frontman.

Getting rid of Adebayor has nothing to do with us doing poorly, RvP has stepped up just fine and Adebayor was absolute shit for us last season. We tried to bring in Chamakh in the summer and when we missed out Wenger should of looked at another and that is his big mistake.

29th November 2009, 19:31

Arsenal are a confidence team. This defeat will effect them for a long time. They are already mentally weak, now their confidence will be shattered. Not every team can come back from a battering at home to one of your rivals and back to back defeats like we did last season.

Dumbstar · 29th November 2009, 19:32

Jazz, I think you've just agreed with me. Van Persie is an excellent striker....for 3 months of a season. The rest he's on a table somewhere. Much like Torres nowadays. This is where Wenger and Rafa put all their eggs in one basket, then sat on it.

JazzG · 29th November 2009, 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merman

Arsenal are a confidence team. This defeat will effect them for a long time. They are already mentally weak, now their confidence will be shattered. Not every team can come back from a battering at home to one of your rivals and back to back defeats like we did last season.

Most teams are "confidence teams"....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dumpstar

Jazz, I think you've just agreed with me. Van Persie is an excellent striker....for 3 months of a season. The rest he's on a table somewhere. Much like Torres nowadays. This is where Wenger and Rafa put all their eggs in one basket, then sat on it.

True but at least this time he was fouled to get injured whereas before he would pick up niggly injuries and be out. Wenger was taking a gamble not bringing in anyone else and it hasn't paid off. Like you say same for Liverpool...

anything about now · 29th November 2009, 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazzG

Getting rid of Adebayor has nothing to do with us doing poorly, RvP has stepped up just fine and Adebayor was absolute shit for us last season. We tried to bring in Chamakh in the summer and when we missed out Wenger should of looked at another and that is his big mistake.

You think Chamakh is/could be a better player than Ade?

At least half of the people over at ArseMania still think he's quality, and IMO he wasn't properly motivated last year which led to his poor form.

SirAF · 29th November 2009, 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merman

Arsenal are a confidence team. This defeat will effect them for a long time. They are already mentally weak, now their confidence will be shattered. Not every team can come back from a battering at home to one of your rivals and back to back defeats like we did last season.

This, I've said so for ages. The United's and chelsea's tend to bounce back straight away - remains to be seen with arsenal, history don't back them.

RedRichio · 29th November 2009, 20:23

Eduardo of old would have been a great replacement but he looks like he's going to be one of those players never to fully recover from serious injury.

Grinner · 29th November 2009, 20:44

We dominated Chelsea for most of the first half. RVP or Bendtner would have probably scored what Eduardo missed today. Wenger needs to bring in a power forward when it's obvious that the likes of Arshavin, Ed and Nasri are always going to struggle against a big defence.

Drogba showed today (yet again) that a forward with power and skill wins games for you. Adebayor did have that, but he wasn't interested in showing it for us anymore. I don't think Wenger will bring anybody in January because he'll expect Bendtner to lead the line.

JazzG · 29th November 2009, 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by anything about now

You think Chamakh is/could be a better player than Ade?

At least half of the people over at ArseMania still think he's quality, and IMO he wasn't properly motivated last year which led to his poor form.

I haven't seen a huge amount of him but from what I have seen I think he would in our system very well, Adebayor was a good player but his attitude was completely wrong and he was becoming a disruptive influence on the team. Last season he wasn't motivated because that idiot didn't realise Milan were only using him to put pressure on Barca so they could get Ronaldinho cheap. He became too big for his own boots and had to be moved on.

johnmufc · 29th November 2009, 21:06

Their fluid 4-3-3 system suited van Persie. It doesn't suit Eduardo or any of their other strikers. Eduardo needs someone to play off, he's not suited as a lone striker. Vela is a good prospect but he's clearly not ready. Bendtner has ability but he's far too inconsistent and seems to have a poor attitude.

van Persie is hard-working, links up play well, and is intelligent and experienced compared to the other Arsenal strikers. He's a big loss.

Arsenal also seem to crumble in the biggest of matches. I don't know whether that's down to a lack of experience, lack of leadership, or if they are really just not good enough.

I think Arsenal will finish 3rd, but the real title challengers will be United and Chelsea.

Cold_Boy · 29th November 2009, 21:16

Out of the title race?NO way.

One loss and they are out of title race?No

Alex · 29th November 2009, 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merman

Arsenal are a confidence team. This defeat will effect them for a long time. They are already mentally weak, now their confidence will be shattered. Not every team can come back from a battering at home to one of your rivals and back to back defeats like we did last season.

The second loss of the back to back losses was to Fulham after getting blasted by Liverpool....I wouldnt exactly call that responding to losing to a rival at home, although United did well after the Fulham match for the most part

Dumbstar · 29th November 2009, 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cold_Boy

Out of the title race?NO way.

One loss and they are out of title race?No

Eh?

Liverpool are 2 points behind Arsenal in the league right now, albeit with one game in hand for the Arse. Also the goal difference between us is just 7. Considering LFC have just had the worst run of games since 18 hundred and whatever, doesn't hold much hope for a team just two points above them either.

adexkola · 29th November 2009, 21:58

Of course they are still in it. CHelsea have the ACN coming up, and I think we will gift some stupid points away from home.

Dumbstar · 29th November 2009, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by adexkola

Of course they are still in it. CHelsea have the ACN coming up, and I think we will gift some stupid points away from home.

What percentage would you give them at this stage of winning the league?

ps. they mentioned in today's game that Chelsea are only likely to be playing 4 league games during the ACN. Surely, Chelsea can cope with the likes of Anelka, Joe Cole, Lampard, Sturridge, during this time?

adexkola · 29th November 2009, 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dumpstar

What percentage would you give them at this stage of winning the league?

ps. they mentioned in today's game that Chelsea are only likely to be playing 4 league games during the ACN. Surely, Chelsea can cope with the likes of Anelka, Joe Cole, Lampard, Sturridge, during this time?

I would give them 20%. Dependent on their form from now on. They bounced back pretty well from the defeat at Old Trafford, let's see how they perform in the next few matches.

Nothing is guaranteed until after the hectic Christmas period.

Dumbstar · 29th November 2009, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by adexkola

I would give them 20%. Dependent on their form from now on. They bounced back pretty well from the defeat at Old Trafford, let's see how they perform in the next few matches.

Nothing is guaranteed until after the hectic Christmas period.

That's fair enough.

Just out of interest though, what percentage would you give the team 2 points below them? The one that finished second last season?

x42bn6 · 29th November 2009, 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by adexkola

Of course they are still in it. CHelsea have the ACN coming up, and I think we will gift some stupid points away from home.

Take a look at who Chelsea play during the ACN!

Saturday, 9 January 2010
Barclays Premier League
Hull v Chelsea, 12:45

Saturday, 16 January 2010
Barclays Premier League
Chelsea v Sunderland, 15:00

Wednesday, 27 January 2010
Barclays Premier League
Chelsea v Birmingham, 19:45

Saturday, 30 January 2010
Barclays Premier League
Burnley v Chelsea, 17:30

Chelsea will not miss Essien, Mikel, Kalou and Drogba much unless they run into injuries.

Top · 29th November 2009, 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dumpstar

That's fair enough.

Just out of interest though, what percentage would you give the team 2 points below them? The one that finished second last season?

Christofaux · 29th November 2009, 22:25

Arsenal obviously still can win but have everything to do for it.

We will need to buy a striker in January that much is clear, if we want to win it. Chelsea do look too good at the moment.

Dumbstar · 29th November 2009, 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top

I know. Its crazy what a bit of Wenger-dazzling can do.

I'm hoping (though obviously not happy) to finish 3rd this season. Arsenal lost some key players in the summer and even with our disasterous run we've managed to rein in enough points while others haven't run away.

F-Red · 29th November 2009, 22:32

They keep playing too much side to side football, they hardly troubled Cech or made him work today. Wengers passing style works to an extent but with bigger sides it lacks any form of penetration.

3rd or 4th spot for them this season i think, probably a good Champions League run, Semi's/maybe Final

JazzG · 29th November 2009, 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnmufc

Their fluid 4-3-3 system suited van Persie. It doesn't suit Eduardo or any of their other strikers. Eduardo needs someone to play off, he's not suited as a lone striker. Vela is a good prospect but he's clearly not ready. Bendtner has ability but he's far too inconsistent and seems to have a poor attitude.

van Persie is hard-working, links up play well, and is intelligent and experienced compared to the other Arsenal strikers. He's a big loss.

Arsenal also seem to crumble in the biggest of matches. I don't know whether that's down to a lack of experience, lack of leadership, or if they are really just not good enough.

I think Arsenal will finish 3rd, but the real title challengers will be United and Chelsea.

Very fair points, our system suited RvP and he was thriving in it and getting the best of the players around him. Another thing is some of our fans might say otherwise in my eyes that guy is the only

Our problem going into this team was the team wasn't very balanced, you could see that our front three just didn't have any balance. They are the ones who should stretch play and be able to hold onto the ball to bring others in, they weren't good enough in that department.

Our main problem as always was our defence, just can't defend as a unit. Blame the defence but the midfield need to help as well.

brewlio · 29th November 2009, 23:45

The whole "we're a young team" thing starts to wear a bit thin when you've heard it every year for about the last 6 or seven. Wenger was right to come out and say it's time they were mixing it up with and beating the big boys. But on today's performance they obviously are still falling short of the mark. It is just not enough to play pretty football, which they didn't today as the renties wouldn't let them. pretty football doesn't put 3 points on the board.

Arsenal have a decent core of players, but they just haven't got the quality of squad in depth to get the job done. Until the board realise that the game has moved on, and you have to get the cheque book out, Arsenal will always be challenging for third at best - season after season.

F-Red · 30th November 2009, 00:04

They need a goal poacher type striker

adexkola · 30th November 2009, 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dumpstar

That's fair enough.

Just out of interest though, what percentage would you give the team 2 points below them? The one that finished second last season?

You got me. Taking your current form into account, your squad depth and your manager into account, it's too much to hope for unfortunately.

duffer · 30th November 2009, 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by F-Red

They need a goal poacher type striker

Eduardo?

Kraftwerker · 30th November 2009, 00:14

I didn't think they were cut out to win the league, or perhaps even challenge, but I'm surprised they got raped so badly today.

It's all about how they react. You don't necessarily need to win all the big games to win the league (though their record isn't at all good this year), but two defeats on the trot is never a good thing, and home form is very important.

Arshavin really needs to step up. He's been beyond average this year. In that Arsenal Mania thread posted on here they were ridiculing us for comparing the signings of Arshavin and Valencia.

Right now it's no contest who's making the better contribution to their team (even if I accept that Arshavin on form is a much better player, as he should be given his age).

GlastonSpur · 30th November 2009, 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by brewlio

The whole "we're a young team" thing starts to wear a bit thin when you've heard it every year for about the last 6 or seven. ....

It's also something of a myth.

The Arsenal starting XI today had a slightly higher average age than the starting XI for Spurs at Villa yesterday.

Christofaux · 30th November 2009, 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlastonSpur

It's also something of a myth.

The Arsenal starting XI today had a slightly higher average age than the starting XI for Spurs at Villa yesterday.

It's more of a big 4 thing though...

F-Red · 30th November 2009, 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by duffer

Eduardo?

I see him more as a striker which will hold up the ball, he could and loosely could play as a poacher. I'm thinking more the Van Nistelrooy/Owen character that they need.

When it comes to the final third they lack direct play, its like it comes to the 18 yard line and they just knock it side to side.

If they get someone of that mold they'll yield some better results

EdWeatherall · 30th November 2009, 00:30

A question to Arsenal fans

Is there actually money to spend, as you read that if Wenger wants a player he could go and sign him. So, is he choosing not to use the transfer market, or is there really not money to spend?

Christofaux · 30th November 2009, 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by F-Red

I see him more as a striker which will hold up the ball, he could and loosely could play as a poacher.

AttackingFlair · 30th November 2009, 00:31

They'll need a new striker if Eduardo's going to carry on performing like he did today.

antihenry · 30th November 2009, 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christofaux

It's more of a big 4 thing though...

No it's just an excuse to justify winning nothing year after year by referring to the notion that you're building a team and your players are just youngsters with great potential.

Every year we hear the same crap about bright future for Arsenal and this future somehow fails to arrive time after time. Wenger is a stubborn man who is hell bent on proving that he's right and everyone else is wrong and his attitude transfers onto his team, that mix of arrogance and inability to admit your own failings.

Sarni · 30th November 2009, 00:33

It'll probably be another unexciting season for them, i.e. out of the title race by New Year and playing with no stake in the last 8 or 10 games or so. Too many of these for them lately unfortunately.

Christofaux · 30th November 2009, 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by antihenry

No it's just an excuse to justify winning nothing year after year by referring to the notion that you're building a team and your players are just youngsters with great potential.

Every year we hear the same crap about bright future for Arsenal and this future somehow fails to arrive time after time. Wenger is a stubborn man who is hell bent on proving that he's right and everyone else is wrong and his attitude transfers onto his team, that mix of arrogance and inability to admit your own failings.

Who said anything about being kids after this result anyway? I've only seen United fans saying it.

29th November 2009, 19:25	#1 (permalink)
B Cantona Desperate Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hated, Adored, Never Ignored Posts: 40,401	Arsecafe: Where now for Arsenal? Out of the title race? Possibly Unlucky today? Yes and no. Thought it was a generous decision giving the foul on Cech, though they'd still have been a goal down. And they were very lucky because Sagna blatantly fouled Anelka where he could have been sent off and a penalty given... The same old problem. Van Persie injured, the other strikers just don't look good enough. And conceeded some pretty poor goals too Do Arsenal now fall back and end up competing with the likes of Liverpool and Spurs for 3rd / 4th? Or can they regroup from here and go on a run? The body language of Fabregas particularly at the end didn't bode well

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29th November 2009, 19:28	#3 (permalink)
Dumbstar First Team Sub Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Going nowhere Posts: 6,215	After the sale of their only strength-striker, Adebayor, I couldn't see them doing anything other than fighting for 3rd/4th before the season started. Obviously, wasn't expecting our injury list to fit a machine room so we're in there with them now. Relying on one striker (Van Persie) is as dangerous a folly as us relying on Torres as our only frontman.

29th November 2009, 19:31	#5 (permalink)
Merman Guest Posts: n/a	Arsenal are a confidence team. This defeat will effect them for a long time. They are already mentally weak, now their confidence will be shattered. Not every team can come back from a battering at home to one of your rivals and back to back defeats like we did last season.

29th November 2009, 19:32	#6 (permalink)
Dumbstar First Team Sub Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Going nowhere Posts: 6,215	Jazz, I think you've just agreed with me. Van Persie is an excellent striker....for 3 months of a season. The rest he's on a table somewhere. Much like Torres nowadays. This is where Wenger and Rafa put all their eggs in one basket, then sat on it.

29th November 2009, 20:23	#10 (permalink)
RedRichio Man on a mission Join Date: May 2006 Location: Birminghamium Posts: 7,019	Eduardo of old would have been a great replacement but he looks like he's going to be one of those players never to fully recover from serious injury.

29th November 2009, 20:44	#11 (permalink)
Grinner fat gutted, hairy shouldered stinky arse Join Date: May 2003 Location: Gumbroski draws mud.... Posts: 20,665	We dominated Chelsea for most of the first half. RVP or Bendtner would have probably scored what Eduardo missed today. Wenger needs to bring in a power forward when it's obvious that the likes of Arshavin, Ed and Nasri are always going to struggle against a big defence. Drogba showed today (yet again) that a forward with power and skill wins games for you. Adebayor did have that, but he wasn't interested in showing it for us anymore. I don't think Wenger will bring anybody in January because he'll expect Bendtner to lead the line.

29th November 2009, 21:06	#13 (permalink)
johnmufc More space between ears than Scholesy Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 4,070	Their fluid 4-3-3 system suited van Persie. It doesn't suit Eduardo or any of their other strikers. Eduardo needs someone to play off, he's not suited as a lone striker. Vela is a good prospect but he's clearly not ready. Bendtner has ability but he's far too inconsistent and seems to have a poor attitude. van Persie is hard-working, links up play well, and is intelligent and experienced compared to the other Arsenal strikers. He's a big loss. Arsenal also seem to crumble in the biggest of matches. I don't know whether that's down to a lack of experience, lack of leadership, or if they are really just not good enough. I think Arsenal will finish 3rd, but the real title challengers will be United and Chelsea.

29th November 2009, 21:16	#14 (permalink)
Cold_Boy Gloom & Doom Spastic Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: London,UK Posts: 15,656	Out of the title race?NO way. One loss and they are out of title race?No

29th November 2009, 21:58	#17 (permalink)
adexkola First Team Sub Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brooklyn. "Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of tea..." Posts: 8,112	Of course they are still in it. CHelsea have the ACN coming up, and I think we will gift some stupid points away from home.

29th November 2009, 22:25	#23 (permalink)
Christofaux First Team Sub Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Le Australie Posts: 9,195	Arsenal obviously still can win but have everything to do for it. We will need to buy a striker in January that much is clear, if we want to win it. Chelsea do look too good at the moment.

29th November 2009, 22:32	#25 (permalink)
F-Red First Team Sub Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Over there Posts: 5,341	They keep playing too much side to side football, they hardly troubled Cech or made him work today. Wengers passing style works to an extent but with bigger sides it lacks any form of penetration. 3rd or 4th spot for them this season i think, probably a good Champions League run, Semi's/maybe Final

29th November 2009, 23:45	#27 (permalink)
brewlio Brophs brother Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sack Geebs, Sell Sults Posts: 24,185	The whole "we're a young team" thing starts to wear a bit thin when you've heard it every year for about the last 6 or seven. Wenger was right to come out and say it's time they were mixing it up with and beating the big boys. But on today's performance they obviously are still falling short of the mark. It is just not enough to play pretty football, which they didn't today as the renties wouldn't let them. pretty football doesn't put 3 points on the board. Arsenal have a decent core of players, but they just haven't got the quality of squad in depth to get the job done. Until the board realise that the game has moved on, and you have to get the cheque book out, Arsenal will always be challenging for third at best - season after season.

30th November 2009, 00:04	#28 (permalink)
F-Red First Team Sub Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Over there Posts: 5,341	They need a goal poacher type striker

30th November 2009, 00:14	#31 (permalink)
Kraftwerker Formerly RedAddict Join Date: May 2008 Location: We can't stop here. This is bat country. Posts: 8,761	I didn't think they were cut out to win the league, or perhaps even challenge, but I'm surprised they got raped so badly today. It's all about how they react. You don't necessarily need to win all the big games to win the league (though their record isn't at all good this year), but two defeats on the trot is never a good thing, and home form is very important. Arshavin really needs to step up. He's been beyond average this year. In that Arsenal Mania thread posted on here they were ridiculing us for comparing the signings of Arshavin and Valencia. Right now it's no contest who's making the better contribution to their team (even if I accept that Arshavin on form is a much better player, as he should be given his age).

30th November 2009, 00:30	#35 (permalink)
EdWeatherall First Team Sub Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 6,727	A question to Arsenal fans Is there actually money to spend, as you read that if Wenger wants a player he could go and sign him. So, is he choosing not to use the transfer market, or is there really not money to spend?

30th November 2009, 00:31	#37 (permalink)
AttackingFlair First Team Sub Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 7,699	They'll need a new striker if Eduardo's going to carry on performing like he did today.

30th November 2009, 00:33	#39 (permalink)
Sarni nice guy, unassuming, objective United fan. Thinks hes intelligent though. Nutter Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Krakow Posts: 20,481	It'll probably be another unexciting season for them, i.e. out of the title race by New Year and playing with no stake in the last 8 or 10 games or so. Too many of these for them lately unfortunately.