Arsecafe: Where now for Arsenal?

Raees

Well you kind of answered your own question, the 'getting of chamakh', the acquisition of a big fast clinical frontman is essential.

They had a big striker in Adebayor and a DM in flamini & it still wasn't enough, why?

Wingers like Hleb, all fanciful ball retention and passing, but couldn't pull the trigger in front of goal. Arshavin is a good step in the right direction by Wenger, a wide player who can score goals.. they need a complementary wide player on the opposite flank.

A good goalkeeper is also crucial, out of the traditional top 4 they have the worst keeper.

Their back 4 need to sharpen up as a whole too, they possess two very talented full backs, Vermalean is also very talented but Gallas is the one who has to 'Galvanise' them into a title winning back four.

I think the above issues are of more concern than a aggressive DM, I think Song is sufficient enough but I accept your arguments with regards to them needing to acquire a better DM. My point merely is that the above issues are of more immediate concern.

yeah but when you're constantly playing your way to the opposition box and then it all breaks down, it means you're constantly striving to score and pushing men forward which leaves alot of gaps at the back.

If Arsenal were capable of scoring goals first against top opposition with ease, they'd be able to sit back and counter.. they just don't have the tools at the moment to put themselves in such a position.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

They had that already in RVP. What they lacked was cover for him and Bendtner. after all RVP is so injury prone.

No squad depth. Now they have some but in the wrong balance.

Nasri and Rosicky IMO are that. I feel the worst problem they face in midfield is Song being bereft of any support in the midfield 3.

But Barca have shown with the right personnel infront of one you can still be ace tbf.

That about right. But I also blame Wenger for neglecting to organise them too. IMO the personnel is ace but the organisation is pathetic at times.

That's not really what I was saying. I love song, IMO he is ace. I feel he needs help though. For example, we play Carrick with Fletcher in a 3 man midfield. Not Carrick or Fletcher alone carrying like a Scholes and a Rooney. The way Arsenal do playing Fabregas and the rest alongside Song. He can't cover an adventurous defence, 2 attacking midfielders and 2 wingers and and forward who don't track back. That's too much work if you ain't Keane or Vieira and are not excepted to play like Makelele and be a 3rd center half.


Which can be covered by 2 holding players. They currently employ only one. As I said earlier if they had Song + Flamini alongside Cesc..they'd be far harder to beat compared to their current state. Even with the same back 4, keeper and attack.

Well they can't even defend against petty counter attacks. Even when they have superior numbers. which IMO is down to the composition of their midfield, and poor back 4 organization. So scoring is the least of their issues as of now.

Eric's Collar

Exactly, their goalkeeper is shit, they are suspest at left back, Vermaelen is more like a holding midfielder than a centre half, lightweight in midfield, no width, no plan B, no plan C, hate physical games/teams, injury prone strikers, no depth, no winning mentality, defeatist attitude running throughout the club...

You could go on.

Interval Level

You do realise that they are 3rd, right? They did give us a hell of a game at OT. WITHOUT Fabregas. With what you've said, it would be assumed that they're in the 2nd half of the table.

Talk about exaggeration

Brwned

They do have some glaring flaws though, and have done for far too long.

Will be interesting to see how much money the next manager will have to spend.

Raees

He cannot be relied upon for a whole season, nothing has suggested to me he is anything but injury prone. We have Berbatov and Rooney, before that we had Tevez too. Chelsea have Anelka and Drogba, Liverpool are in a similar position...one top class striker in Torres and little backup - though even Kuyt > Eduardo, Vela and Bendtner.

No squad depth, but even in Adebayor they possessed a striker who wasn't clinical enough and would go missing on the big occassions,

They are both essentially attacking mids pushed out wide and don't demonstrate enough cutting edge or pace on the flanks.

Fair point, but I think in the prem especially and with so many teams being adept at set pieces.. that a quality all-round goalkeeper is of more importance than it would be in spain, where a mere shotstopper is seen as enough.


Yep.

Ah I see, fair point.. again what I'd say though is that if they were able to score goals and penetrate in big games with more ease.. they'd be less likely to be all gung-ho trying so hard to score a goal. They'd score and sit back, playing on the counter and thus Song wouldn't have to cover so many holes with so little help. The better and more effiecient your attackng players, the less you need to push forward in order to create a goal. I.E. Ancelotti and Fergie having faith in their three forwards to create and score with little help and thus keeping a solid defensive foundation in the process if the ball is lost.

Linked to the above point I made^.

If they were creating chances and missing them, whilst conceding goals than yes you'd be right.. but the fact they consistently look so toothless v us and Chelsea points to the fact its their attack which needs investment. Not being able to score goals, means they place too much emphasis on pushing men forward which leaves them short of numbers at the back.

Eric's Collar

It's not an exaggeration, it's only subtle differences but it's the critical points that make the difference.

They've had these little problems for years, how many now since they won something?

Correct me if I'm wrong;

their goalkeeper is shit - Almunia, seriously. Compared to Cech/VDS/Reina?
they are suspest at left back - Gibbs and Clichy are good, but they are suspect
Vermaelen is more like a holding midfielder than a centre half - Just an opinion of mine
lightweight in midfield - As we've seen in the last two weeks
no width - Play a narrow defence and let them swing in crosses and you'll clean up against them
no plan B - A known fact
no plan C - See above
hate physical games/teams - Hence why they lose to the likes of Bolton/Stoke
injury prone strikers - Van Persie and Eduardo
no depth - Not in comparison to United/Chelsea
no winning mentality - How many players in their side have won trophies?
defeatist attitude running throughout the club - See Arshavin's comments the other day.

peterstorey

Come back in 2016 if you want the answer to that one.

Brwned

Aye, he'll definitely be there a while yet, but it doesn't look like he's planning on changing his spending plans any time soon so it'll still give me the answer I'm looking for!

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

Hell no. I'd take Bendtner as a center foward over Kuyt any day. But he alone couldn't cover RVP.


But that season they lost out because they had no cover for their big guns in any shape of form. They simply burn't out.

Right now they have an over abundance of attacking midfielders and players who can play wide attacking roles. But not enough DM's and no cover for Bendtner and RVP.

I don't really agree. Arsenal still score loads with such layers wide. & Wenger's style has never ever relied on true wingers. His fullbacks have always provided width. But his left fullbacks have been poor this year. & Sagna has been far from his best.


True.

The thing is though Arsenal's style is naturally adventurous. So they should shape the midfield to account for that adventurousness. Rather than throw it to the dogs. Becuase all the other big team do now is give them the ball and rape them on the counter.



Trust me even with a fit RVP or Chamakh and good wingers they'd still be walloped the same way and look as helpless. The midfield is the true problem. It is not equipped to help their adventurous style. Worse still the back 4 behind it are not organized well enough and have a Valdes in goal behind them. A recipt for consistent disaster.


For me Arsenal are just 2 players away from the near perfect team.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

Even with his current spending habits he could sort his team out tbf. He just has too look in the right places and for the right things. Not for players like Sol and Silvestre.

Raees

Kuyts very underrated, he's a far better finisher and mentally more tough.. just a shame he's been used as a defensive winger for so long due to Rafa's inability to find a half decent wideman.

There was the game v Chelsea in the latter part of that season, whereby they dominated posession and created plenty of chances but again finished second best due to a match winning performance by Didier.. and the 2-1 win by us when Hargreaves scored, both big matches proved they lacked clincal finishers... an underlying problem against big teams which has nothing to do with burn out.

Attacking mids, yes.. but very little talent out wide bar Arshavin. Nasri and Rosicky are pretty versions of Park.

Likes of Ljungberg, Overmars, Pires, Wltord... goalscorers, assist makers... impact players who didn't just look pretty but were pretty direct and matchwinners. Rosicky and Nasri haven't demonstrated matchwinning ability consistently enough and seem obesessed with keeping the ball rather than making an impact. Walcott should be this type of player but sadly doesn't posess the variety and technique in his play to cut it out wide.

Why are teams so content with giving them the ball? because they do fuck all with it.. linked to their impotence up front. If they could split you open with ease, you would see teams come out and close them down.


Strikers and out wide on the right is the more pressing problem. They just end up looking like they're out of ideas.

I'd say they're 5 players away from a near perfect team, and 3 away from a possible title-winning team.

peterstorey

I reckon the money shackles are off in terms of transfer fees, the problem is wage inflation.

antihenry

People talking about Arsenal missing a striker, a holding midfielder or a top quality keeper forget one important thing: even with all that Arsenal are still missing a very important ingredient: winning mentality.

For all Wenger's brilliant scouting and coaching (and you have to give a man credit for keeping the club competitive without spending much) there's this glaring weakness that I see every time the going gets tough for them; instead of pulling it together they fall apart. They seriously lack leadership within the team, apart from Fabregas who may have a potential in that respect there's really no one that can step up and lead the charge. They are a soft team, they lack balls and all the pretty attacking patterns in the world won't change that.

Ramshock

these Arsenal -Barca comparisons are laughable...what Arsenal dont have is someone like Xavi or Iniesta that and their best two attacking players Percy and Cesc are injury prone...like I said in a thread earlier, that got Sambas tampon stuck in his vag, Wenger needs to STFU and buy some decent players

F-Red

I think the one obvious difference in the comparisons that people make between the two is the leadership in the team. You have someone like Puyol as a captain at Barca, he's a fully fledged Catalan, he knows what its like to play for the shirt/team/crowd etc. Arsenal's captain, as good a player he is, doesn't have the captain ability that Tony Adams had.

That should be Wengers priority. Fabregas isn't and will never be a leader on the pitch.

Christofaux

Aston Villa at the emirates was a prime example he can be a leader on the pitch. By the time he can do it more regularly he will probably be playing in spain.

Sam.G

How do you define that though? How does he not lead? What would you expect him to do that he doesn't.

Captaincy in football is over-hyped in my view. You need strong characters all over the pitch.

x42bn6

He doesn't inspire the rest of the team, cajole the team, perk their spirits up or anything like that.

He's not a "quiet leader" either.

It's not a slight on his ability but he doesn't strike me as a leader of any sort. He's often the one dragging his team around rather than leading it.

Devilton

I'm sorry, but that's rubbish. Arsenal's problem isn't that they have Fabregas as captain, it's that they have a squad of too many similar type of players, and a manager who despite having the funds has not strengthened areas of the team that have needed fresh blood. Wengers priority isn't replacing Fabregas as captain, rather it's to take a honest look at his strategy over the last 5 years and realize he has won fuck all with it. His priority should be to admit he needs to bring in 3 maybe 4 quality players to transform a team that's good into a team that will be able to compete consistently for titles.

Fabregas may not have the big personality of Adams but he's been amazing for the Gunners this season. He's their best player and the engine that drives the gunners. If that's not captain material I don't know what is. (and lets say for arguments sake Wenger decides to appoint someone else captain, who would he pick ? Gallas - who is mentally weak, Vermalen - he's only just been bought. Permacrock Rosicky? The other kids in the squad?)

Captaincy has done wonders for Fabregas's form. Wenger would have to be a madman to take it away from him when there are no other candidates in the squad who could do a better job.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

I'd say he is mentally tougher. I'd still back Bendtner to finish better than him if both are fit and in form.

True. Personally I like Kuyt. But he stopped being of use as a CF. When he plays as one he is a Heskey. Decent play and no real threat. I like him on the flank. He is capable of some serious attacking play from there as the Dutch have showed in international football.

Most big teams are not clinical vs each other t be fair. That season in question though Arsenal's season collapsed because they had nothing left in the tank during the run in.


Yet they score loads with them in general. I assure width is less of problem for them than people realise. The football there side play really caters for that problem. As we found out during our 2-0 loss at the Emirates last season.

If they have cf that suits their game in the middle, they don't really need serious width to get behind most sides. Because their pass and move game becomes really effective with the proper tools.


I'd say he is young. He has time.


I disagree. Have a look at their goals scored column. They can split open most teams. The difference is big teams have realised how easy it is to hit them on the counter and are the few teams capable of easily shutting them out. So there is no point opening up to make it easier for Arsenal to compete. All they do is wait for them to lose the ball and tear them open on the break. If Arsenal were hard to do on the break, most big sides would attack them more, and Arsenal would as a result score more in big games. Just remember our loss to them last season. We played very open football. Yet when we didn't we had fun with them.


Any side would ran out of idea attacking the big side in England, with the big side. There is no point in them, being good up front if they can't keep teams out.

Fair enough, that's your opinion.

I say if they sign Chamakh, plus a Flamini like player plus organise the back 4 a bit better. They'd rape all the other teams in the league and compete very well against the big 4 since they'd no longer just be done on the counter by big teams, who would be forced to be less cagey vs them. They would also never miss RVP as badly against those sides since they'd have a good alternative.

Which would turn them into a title contending side overnight.

F-Red

I don't think given the captaincy has actually done anything to his form, merely coincidence infact. Fabregas was always knocking on the door of having a good season. Injuries to Van Persie & Bendtner and the departure of Adebayor has probably forced Wenger to tell him to do what he likes in front of goal.

The captain though is what they lack, the whole team is mentally weak. You look at the other teams in the top four and they all have characters in that team, leaders all over the pitch that can organise & stir up the team. I look at Arsenal & they just look soulless.

Wenger needs a character, like an Adams or a Vieira, to give that team the direction on the field. If Wenger's with holding spending huge amounts on a varying amount of players (for the weaker areas of the team), a player who can fit that role of captain will be an added bonus to the team as currently I can't see one.

Donkey's Ears

The main problem is Wenger and its blindingly obvious. He moves like lightning to try and secure the next big thing like Ramsay or Smalling. With that sort of decision he is comfortable and so moves quickly.

But other decisions (such as the three year long keeper issue) he hesitates and prevaricates and hides behind money issues etc etc. If he is truly as constricted as he claims then he has no purpose buying people like Ramsay etc because there are glaring first team needs that he has to address now. Its the same for arguing that he doesn't want to block potential first teamers because if they're good enough then play them and if not then its not an issue.

He is consistently indecisive in the transfer market and given that doesn't receive anywhere near enough criticism.

Donkey's Ears

You lose credibility when you say things like organise the back four a bit better. If it was that easy then they would do it.

Sarni

He's spent over £25m in order to secure Arshavin and Vermaelen for the first team lately. Both true talents with the former arguably close to being world class.

I don't really think the lack of players is what holds them back. It's their mentality.

F-Red

Well when a team counter attacks at them (as shown in the last two games) they look anything but organised, unless you truly believe already that their back four is organised then your credibility argument is thrown out of the window.

Donkey's Ears

They don't look organised against lots of teams. I'm simply saying that claiming they only need two players and then saying they need to organise a bit better is not that useful an analysis and undermines the statement they only need two players. Liverpool could say they only need one player but need to show more flair, imagination and skill.

Donkey's Ears

It's the lack of certain types of players. They are full to the brim with young, inventive midfielders and Wenger still moves to secure the next great one rather than focus on securing a goalkeeper, an experienced DM, a striker, a good right winger.

Their mentality is partly wrong because he never moves for the players with the right mentality.

Anyway, you're missing my point. My point is Wenger is the guy who is fiddling with the icing on his cake which already looks amazing but can't produce a decent starter or main course. If you see what I mean. Ramsay, for a guy in his position, was a completely unnecessary purchase. I'm not saying he isn't good but was it the best use of that money at that time? No - they had much more pressing needs which he won't address.

They don't have a proper striker, and have no back up for their best version which is RVP, etc etc.

Ekeke

Arshavin may be the genuine article, but Vermaelen is just a prospect and will take time till he's at a level to compete with the defenders at the likes of United and Chelsea. A propsect like the majority of the Arsenal team, thus its no surprise when Arsenal show a lack of winning mentality, a lack of leadership and so on. These things come with experience and Arsenal have so little of it.