Eric Cantona - 'Cause Football Is An Art'

cesc's_mullet · 21st July 2008, 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Younited.7

Over an 11 year period.

No doubting that he was great, but not quite The King.

For the record, Cantona scored 79 goals for us in 5 seasons, you can't add 5 of Bergkamps best seasons to equal that record. Only two of his best ended in Premiership titles, 4 of Cantonas ended in title wins.

You were a better, and more importantly, an established side.

It's a fault-riddled arguement to claim he's better simply because he played in a side that won more. Would you also claim Fletcher is better then Fabregas?

cesc's_mullet · 21st July 2008, 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Younited.7

Please, you're pointing out the obvious.

As not many people can differentiate between them, i used stats to paint a picture, after giving my opinion on the matter.

It seemed to me, following from the thread title, that greatness was the matter at hand. And in terms of greatness, stats are very important.

I'm not trying to pick on you here. But like Ceks said, Bergkamp played on well after his peak. Cantona retired at the age of what? 32?

No doubt his ratio would've tumbled had he played on to his mid-30's (an extra 4 seasons) like Bergkamp had.

Anyway, obviously Cantona left a more illustrious career behind him. But you cannot argue that both had a trumendous impact on each side - equally so.

Revolutionisers.

Younited.7 · 21st July 2008, 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by cesc's_mullet

You were a better, and more importantly, an established side.

It's a fault-riddled arguement to claim he's better simply because he played in a side that won more. Would you also claim Fletcher is better then Fabregas?

I didn't, originally i said that i thought that he was better, then i looked at the statistics to make further analysis. Simply doesn't come into it, i was comprehensive in my analysis.

It's a very silly argument to level, especially as i have already stated these factors - everybody knows the limitations of statistics - i even stated them, but you would be going round in circles with the David May argument (Fletcher vs Fabregas). It is obvious that Cantona was playing for a different team, arguably "more estabilished" etc, but, does this mean we discount all statistical based player comparisons because they were playing for a different clubs? Do we discount Fabregas' passing statistics because Arsenal never pass more than 10 feet in front of them

?

It's a very slippery slope if you decide to go that direction.

In answer to your other post:

I did take Bergkamps most fruitful 5 years, and Cantonas only 5, with Cantona slightly edging that one in terms of games and goals. That is in favour of Bergkamp by the way. Interestingly, Bergkamp is the premiership record assist holder, with 166, as we don't have any stats for Cantona, and he played for 6 years less than Bergkamp, it is impossible to compare them in this area of their game.

It is undeniable that they were both two of the Premierships greatest players, in terms of greatness though, Cantona was the greatest. The way to compare this, now, is to look at titles won and goals scored over what period of time - nobody can give 10 reasons why one is better than the other from what they have seen, it is far too debatable, and as you have seen, it can very easily be doubted, it is much of a muchness at the end of the day.

Younited.7 · 21st July 2008, 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by cesc's_mullet

I'm not trying to pick on you here. But like Ceks said, Bergkamp played on well after his peak. Cantona retired at the age of what? 32?

No doubt his ratio would've tumbled had he played on to his mid-30's (an extra 4 seasons) like Bergkamp had.

Anyway, obviously Cantona left a more illustrious career behind him. But you cannot argue that both had a trumendous impact on each side - equally so.

Revolutionisers.

I wouldn't argue the first bit, slipping "equally so" in there is a bit dubious though. It depends how much weight you add to certain factors, Cantona brought home our first title in 26 years (winning 3 more) and won two doubles. He laid the foundations for a treble and back to back to back titles, you can even say that he is very much responsible for our current success - him and Ferguson are godfathers of the modern Utd. As an Arsenal supporter i understand that it is very hard to comprehend our feeling for this man, though he was the catalyst for much of our modern success.

I remember the goal he scored against Liverpool in the FA cup final, it wasn't the Champions League, but it was Liverpool and it was for the double, an absolutely critical goal that year, especially after he almost quit football the previous year.

Of all people in the premierships history, Cantona is more revered than any other, his personality and his football make him untouchable, i doubt any other player will ever be held in the same regard as the king.

I mean, how many other players will be called The King by opposing supporters?

I know plenty that do.

cesc's_mullet · 21st July 2008, 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Younited.7

I wouldn't argue the first bit, slipping "equally so" in there is a bit dubious though. It depends how much weight you add to certain factors, Cantona brought home our first title in 26 years (winning 3 more) and won two doubles. He laid the foundations for a treble and back to back to back titles, you can even say that he is very much responsible for our current success - him and Ferguson are godfathers of the modern Utd. As an Arsenal supporter i understand that it is very hard to comprehend our feeling for this man, though he was the catalyst for much of our modern success.

I remember the goal he scored against Liverpool in the FA cup final, it wasn't the Champions League, but it was Liverpool and it was for the double, an absolutely critical goal that year, especially after he almost quit football the previous year.

Of all people in the premierships history, Cantona is more revered than any other, his personality and his football make him untouchable, i doubt any other player will ever be held in the same regard as the king.

I mean, how many other players will be called The King by opposing supporters?

I know plenty that do.

WOOPS.

I meant to say you cannot argue that both DIDN'T have a tremendous impact on each respective side - equally so.

Younited.7 · 21st July 2008, 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by cesc's_mullet

WOOPS.

I meant to say you cannot argue that both DIDN'T have a tremendous impact on each respective side - equally so.

I know what you meant fella.

reddevilcanada · 21st July 2008, 11:09

Both had great footballing brains, they weren't just about scoring goals and magnificent ones at that, but their ability to pick a pass and setting up goals is generally ignored.

green demon · 21st July 2008, 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by cesc's_mullet

You were a better, and more importantly, an established side.

It's a fault-riddled arguement to claim he's better simply because he played in a side that won more. Would you also claim Fletcher is better then Fabregas?

Slight quibble on your first statement, you were a more established side when Cantona joined as you had won two championships in the previous five years and we hadn't won one for 26. I can't remember what year Bergkamp joined you butyou must have been in a similar position as were in 1992.

I obviously agree with your other statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cesc's_mullet

Anyway, obviously Cantona left a more illustrious career behind him. But you cannot argue that both had a trumendous impact on each side - equally so.

Revolutionisers.

Absolutely agree. Which you think was better depends on which team you support. Both were outstanding and it was great watching both youtubes.

Ixion · 21st July 2008, 12:15

Regarding assists, found this link

http://www.premiersoccerstats.com/Re...=All%20Seasons

Its actually Giggsy with the most assists, by quite a margin! But mind-bogglingly its Darren Anderton with the most assists from deadball situations!

kristinson · 21st July 2008, 12:39

geez I forgot how awesome bergkamp was, he was phenominal for arsenal, and well words cant sum up Eric, but thanks for the vids some great memories.

Younited.7 · 21st July 2008, 12:41

Eric has a better average assist record than Bergkamp, but Wikipedia states a different assist total for Dennis.

Age whatever.

Very well done Ixion - you hammered the final nail in the coffin...

Ryan Giggs is the greatest Premiership footballer, ever.

KingEric7 · 21st July 2008, 13:27

Two of the most influential players in the history of the Premiership.

Bergkamp could do absolutely phenomenal things with a football and was simply an incredibly gifted and natural footballer. He was one of that select bunch of footballers that could be stripped of any strength, pace or athleticism whatsoever, and still be a world beater. There are very few players in recent years that can match Bergkamp's control over a football.

However, without Cantona, we would not be where we are today. I can say with absolute certainty that had Fergie opted for Hirst from Wednesday instead of getting Cantona, the last 15 years would've been hugely less decorated. 4 leagues in 5 seasons after a 26 year wait for the league. That speaks for itself. He obviously wasn't the only factor, but fuck me he was essential. Like Bergkamp, Eric had that ability to do something out of this world from very little and that is always a sign of the most special footballers.

Arsenal fans will claim Bergkamp was greater and we will claim Cantona was greater. There's not much in it, but i will stand by my opinion that Cantona is the most influential footballer that has played for this club. I find it difficult to even talk about him without coming over all giddy and nostalgic whilst thinking of his goal from heaven against Liverpool in 96.

KingEric7 · 21st July 2008, 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don16

May I just say I think the best player in the history of the premiership wasn't either of them...

Aye. That would go to Thierry Henry, and debatably Peter Schmeichel.

Iron Stove · 21st July 2008, 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddevilcanada

reminds of this goal from Mancini

Funny, I was certain you were talking about this goal by Roberto Mancini until I clicked the youtube link. One of the best I've ever seen.

One of my all time favourite players and another underrated intelligent forward who somehow reminded me of Bergkamp. I recall Sven saying something like "There will never be another footballer like Roberto". Here's a compilation (with complimentary cheesy music of course):

Ceks · 23rd July 2008, 13:06

http://www.caughtoffside.com/2008/07...yer-thinks-so/

Only The Sun could bring us an ex-Arsenal legend sticking his oar in over the Berbatov to Man Utd saga, claiming that the Spurs striker could be the new Cantona if he joined the Old Trafford outfit.
Yep, that’s right CaughtOffsiders, Ian Wright reckons that Berba could be the new Cantona and even claims that he has a touch of Bergkamp about him. Hmmmm…

Where there is hope, at least there is Dimitar Berbatov.

The moody Bulgarian is bang on Alex Ferguson’s radar and I reckon he is the Eric Cantona clone the United faithful have been praying for.

The languid style. The look of not being interested — before turning on the stunning skill. The pure class.

Cantona had bucketloads of it and so does Berba. He’s just got the vibe, if you know what I mean.

There is a bit of Dennis Bergkamp about him, too but the Cantona comparison is spot on.

KingEric7 · 23rd July 2008, 13:10

If that article had been about Ibrahimovic, he may have had a point.

However, what we must consider is that Ian Wright has an IQ of approximately 32, and that we should expect the complete opposite of what he expects to occur.

Ceks · 23rd July 2008, 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingEric7

If that article had been about Ibrahimovic, he may have had a point.

However, what we must consider is that Ian Wright has an IQ of approximately 32, and that we should expect the complete opposite of what he expects to occur.

That's about right, but I still love the guy.

Still, I see where he's coming from, and I made comparisons before I read that shitty article. I think Berbatov has a big future at Utd nevertheless.

Ceks · 23rd July 2008, 13:16

Found a bit of Bergkamp - Cantona debate on the bbc, thought I'd post some of the responses.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A37478343

comment by therealeverton (U10822719)
posted 4 Weeks Ago

The people who are saying Cantona should realise they are making the case for Bergkamp. How? all of your examples are from the EPL. He did virtually nothing in either Eyrope or for France. That's why Bergkamp is better. You can arggue the techniique, football brain, finishing, scoring etc all day long, but all round, outside of the PL there's not even a competition.

Also I haven't mentioned this so far, it should be remembered that the Pl was absoloute garbage the 1st 3 or 4 seasons Cantona was in England, amazingly poor. Now you can only ever beat what's in front of you, but you might want to consider that the reasosn for his relatively poor record in Europe and for France may partially be down to him having vastly inferior players to dominate in the EPL.

He was a great Premier league player, but bergkamp was a Great Player.

comment by SquareGoat (U11599187)
posted 4 Weeks Ago

I'll be biased (but honest) and say Cantona because I'm a Red but that's not to say Bergkamp was a worse player. Cantona was immense for United and brought something to the side we needed at the time to help us win out first League title in 26 years. His contribution to the club can never be underestimated. Bergkamp will always be mentioned on those 'Premiership's top players' programs because he was an absoulte master on a football pitch. I watched the 3-3 draw with Leicester from 96/97 the other day. Bergkamp's last goal was pure genius. Same as his goal against Argentina in 98. I'd say Cantona had more charisma and character which added to his ability and made him a legend in every United fan's eyes but Bergkamp was an unbelievably talented footballer. I'm glad when I first started going to football matches I grew up watching these sort of players. Especially Eric.

comment by James 'Garlic Bread' Roby (He's The Future) (U1722150)
posted 4 Weeks Ago

Cantona (Six seasons - 5 League Titles) the one year he missed out he got banned !!!
He was the one reason why all the Utd kids matured so quickly. As an Everton fan I could only watch in awe and from afar at some of things he did and how he influenced the Leeds team first and Utd players, turning them from good players into winners. Ooh Aah one legend who's name will be chanted on the terraces for years to come, long after the likes of Ronaldo and Bergkamp have been long forgotten.

comment by therealeverton (U10822719)
posted 4 Weeks Ago

I'm not an Arsenal fan, Cantona was average at best for France, and If you're honest was mostly Average for Man U in Europe. he was outstanding in the Pl. Bergkamp was outstanding at all three levels, in the PL, In Europe and for Netherlands on a world stage.

It's nothing to worry about, Ian Wright wass amazing in the league, not bad in europe either, but (possibly due to poor timing) never really got going at international level. that doesn't make him a bad player does it?

CapeTownRed · 23rd July 2008, 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Younited.7

Henry?

He'd get my vote. Greatest footballer the Premiership has seen in my view, despite the fact that I worshop the ground The King walks on.

crappycraperson · 23rd July 2008, 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by cesc's_mullet

I'm not trying to pick on you here. But like Ceks said, Bergkamp played on well after his peak. Cantona retired at the age of what? 32?

No doubt his ratio would've tumbled had he played on to his mid-30's (an extra 4 seasons) like Bergkamp had.

Anyway, obviously Cantona left a more illustrious career behind him. But you cannot argue that both had a trumendous impact on each side - equally so.

Revolutionisers.

It's true what he said though. even if you take Bergkamp's five best season you can't match Cantona's record of 79 goals in 5 seasons. It was by chance that I checked his goal scoring record that day when Peter was banging on about Berbatov. And for someone who is regarded as one of the best players to play n the league, Bergkamp's goal scoring record is shockingly bad.

Spoonatov · 23rd July 2008, 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by crappycraperson

It's true what he said though. even if you take Bergkamp's five best season you can't match Cantona's record of 79 goals in 5 seasons. It was by chance that I checked his goal scoring record that day when Peter was banging on about Berbatov. And for someone who is regarded as one of the best players to play n the league, Bergkamp's goal scoring record is shockingly bad.

Maybe he's just a tad overrated? Zola's another one. Both Serie A rejects. (When the SerieA was the best league in the world.)

Spoonatov · 23rd July 2008, 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ceks

I'm not an Arsenal fan, Cantona was average at best for France, and If you're honest was mostly Average for Man U in Europe. he was outstanding in the Pl. Bergkamp was outstanding at all three levels, in the PL, In Europe and for Netherlands on a world stage.

It's nothing to worry about, Ian Wright wass amazing in the league, not bad in europe either, but (possibly due to poor timing) never really got going at international level. that doesn't make him a bad player does it?

Substitute Cantona and Ian Wright for Henry. And it still fits.

crappycraperson · 23rd July 2008, 13:53

Zola is definitely overrated, very easy on the eye but not as good or effective as some make him out to be.

KingEric7 · 23rd July 2008, 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapeTownRed

He'd get my vote. Greatest footballer the Premiership has seen in my view, despite the fact that I worshop the ground The King walks on.

Aye. It's bizarre how downhill he's gone these past 2 years; i don't even see him as the same player anymore.

The Henry at Arsenal was pretty similar to the Ronaldo we currently have.

CapeTownRed · 23rd July 2008, 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingEric7

Aye. It's bizarre how downhill he's gone these past 2 years; i don't even see him as the same player anymore.

The Henry at Arsenal was pretty similar to the Ronaldo we currently have.

The list of injuries he's had haven't helped, and the fact that he decided to join a club where he wouldn't be a guarenteed starter unless he was playing his best hasn't helped either. I get the feeling he could still get pretty close to his best with a run of games under his belt, despite him getting on a bit now. I really hope so anyway - world football just isn't the same without him and Ronaldinho adding to the highlight reels...

rotherham_red · 23rd July 2008, 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ceks

Found a bit of Bergkamp - Cantona debate on the bbc, thought I'd post some of the responses.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A37478343

comment by therealeverton (U10822719)
posted 4 Weeks Ago

The people who are saying Cantona should realise they are making the case for Bergkamp. How? all of your examples are from the EPL. He did virtually nothing in either Eyrope or for France. That's why Bergkamp is better. You can arggue the techniique, football brain, finishing, scoring etc all day long, but all round, outside of the PL there's not even a competition.

Also I haven't mentioned this so far, it should be remembered that the Pl was absoloute garbage the 1st 3 or 4 seasons Cantona was in England, amazingly poor. Now you can only ever beat what's in front of you, but you might want to consider that the reasosn for his relatively poor record in Europe and for France may partially be down to him having vastly inferior players to dominate in the EPL.

He was a great Premier league player, but bergkamp was a Great Player.

comment by SquareGoat (U11599187)
posted 4 Weeks Ago

I'll be biased (but honest) and say Cantona because I'm a Red but that's not to say Bergkamp was a worse player. Cantona was immense for United and brought something to the side we needed at the time to help us win out first League title in 26 years. His contribution to the club can never be underestimated. Bergkamp will always be mentioned on those 'Premiership's top players' programs because he was an absoulte master on a football pitch. I watched the 3-3 draw with Leicester from 96/97 the other day. Bergkamp's last goal was pure genius. Same as his goal against Argentina in 98. I'd say Cantona had more charisma and character which added to his ability and made him a legend in every United fan's eyes but Bergkamp was an unbelievably talented footballer. I'm glad when I first started going to football matches I grew up watching these sort of players. Especially Eric.

21st July 2008, 11:09	#87 (permalink)
reddevilcanada First Team Regular Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 10,108	Both had great footballing brains, they weren't just about scoring goals and magnificent ones at that, but their ability to pick a pass and setting up goals is generally ignored.

21st July 2008, 12:15	#89 (permalink)
Ixion Reserve Team Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Greater Manchester Posts: 3,495	Regarding assists, found this link http://www.premiersoccerstats.com/Re...=All%20Seasons Its actually Giggsy with the most assists, by quite a margin! But mind-bogglingly its Darren Anderton with the most assists from deadball situations!

21st July 2008, 12:39	#90 (permalink)
kristinson Reserve Team Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Dubai Posts: 947	geez I forgot how awesome bergkamp was, he was phenominal for arsenal, and well words cant sum up Eric, but thanks for the vids some great memories.

21st July 2008, 12:41	#91 (permalink)
Younited.7 united.7 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: St Evenage Posts: 2,083	Eric has a better average assist record than Bergkamp, but Wikipedia states a different assist total for Dennis. Age whatever. Very well done Ixion - you hammered the final nail in the coffin... Ryan Giggs is the greatest Premiership footballer, ever.

21st July 2008, 13:27	#92 (permalink)
KingEric7 Winner of the Tabata bet Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Patrice Evra is that which no greater can be conceived. Posts: 13,577	Two of the most influential players in the history of the Premiership. Bergkamp could do absolutely phenomenal things with a football and was simply an incredibly gifted and natural footballer. He was one of that select bunch of footballers that could be stripped of any strength, pace or athleticism whatsoever, and still be a world beater. There are very few players in recent years that can match Bergkamp's control over a football. However, without Cantona, we would not be where we are today. I can say with absolute certainty that had Fergie opted for Hirst from Wednesday instead of getting Cantona, the last 15 years would've been hugely less decorated. 4 leagues in 5 seasons after a 26 year wait for the league. That speaks for itself. He obviously wasn't the only factor, but fuck me he was essential. Like Bergkamp, Eric had that ability to do something out of this world from very little and that is always a sign of the most special footballers. Arsenal fans will claim Bergkamp was greater and we will claim Cantona was greater. There's not much in it, but i will stand by my opinion that Cantona is the most influential footballer that has played for this club. I find it difficult to even talk about him without coming over all giddy and nostalgic whilst thinking of his goal from heaven against Liverpool in 96.

23rd July 2008, 13:06	#95 (permalink)
Ceks Cekscrayons Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: 'Everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home' 'I think the word is respect. I can’t say there is friendship on both sides.' - Arsene Wenger Posts: 1,928	http://www.caughtoffside.com/2008/07...yer-thinks-so/ Only The Sun could bring us an ex-Arsenal legend sticking his oar in over the Berbatov to Man Utd saga, claiming that the Spurs striker could be the new Cantona if he joined the Old Trafford outfit. Yep, that’s right CaughtOffsiders, Ian Wright reckons that Berba could be the new Cantona and even claims that he has a touch of Bergkamp about him. Hmmmm… Where there is hope, at least there is Dimitar Berbatov. The moody Bulgarian is bang on Alex Ferguson’s radar and I reckon he is the Eric Cantona clone the United faithful have been praying for. The languid style. The look of not being interested — before turning on the stunning skill. The pure class. Cantona had bucketloads of it and so does Berba. He’s just got the vibe, if you know what I mean. There is a bit of Dennis Bergkamp about him, too but the Cantona comparison is spot on.

23rd July 2008, 13:10	#96 (permalink)
KingEric7 Winner of the Tabata bet Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Patrice Evra is that which no greater can be conceived. Posts: 13,577	If that article had been about Ibrahimovic, he may have had a point. However, what we must consider is that Ian Wright has an IQ of approximately 32, and that we should expect the complete opposite of what he expects to occur.

23rd July 2008, 13:16	#98 (permalink)
Ceks Cekscrayons Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: 'Everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home' 'I think the word is respect. I can’t say there is friendship on both sides.' - Arsene Wenger Posts: 1,928	Found a bit of Bergkamp - Cantona debate on the bbc, thought I'd post some of the responses. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A37478343 comment by therealeverton (U10822719) posted 4 Weeks Ago The people who are saying Cantona should realise they are making the case for Bergkamp. How? all of your examples are from the EPL. He did virtually nothing in either Eyrope or for France. That's why Bergkamp is better. You can arggue the techniique, football brain, finishing, scoring etc all day long, but all round, outside of the PL there's not even a competition. Also I haven't mentioned this so far, it should be remembered that the Pl was absoloute garbage the 1st 3 or 4 seasons Cantona was in England, amazingly poor. Now you can only ever beat what's in front of you, but you might want to consider that the reasosn for his relatively poor record in Europe and for France may partially be down to him having vastly inferior players to dominate in the EPL. He was a great Premier league player, but bergkamp was a Great Player. comment by SquareGoat (U11599187) posted 4 Weeks Ago I'll be biased (but honest) and say Cantona because I'm a Red but that's not to say Bergkamp was a worse player. Cantona was immense for United and brought something to the side we needed at the time to help us win out first League title in 26 years. His contribution to the club can never be underestimated. Bergkamp will always be mentioned on those 'Premiership's top players' programs because he was an absoulte master on a football pitch. I watched the 3-3 draw with Leicester from 96/97 the other day. Bergkamp's last goal was pure genius. Same as his goal against Argentina in 98. I'd say Cantona had more charisma and character which added to his ability and made him a legend in every United fan's eyes but Bergkamp was an unbelievably talented footballer. I'm glad when I first started going to football matches I grew up watching these sort of players. Especially Eric. comment by James 'Garlic Bread' Roby (He's The Future) (U1722150) posted 4 Weeks Ago Cantona (Six seasons - 5 League Titles) the one year he missed out he got banned !!! He was the one reason why all the Utd kids matured so quickly. As an Everton fan I could only watch in awe and from afar at some of things he did and how he influenced the Leeds team first and Utd players, turning them from good players into winners. Ooh Aah one legend who's name will be chanted on the terraces for years to come, long after the likes of Ronaldo and Bergkamp have been long forgotten. comment by therealeverton (U10822719) posted 4 Weeks Ago I'm not an Arsenal fan, Cantona was average at best for France, and If you're honest was mostly Average for Man U in Europe. he was outstanding in the Pl. Bergkamp was outstanding at all three levels, in the PL, In Europe and for Netherlands on a world stage. It's nothing to worry about, Ian Wright wass amazing in the league, not bad in europe either, but (possibly due to poor timing) never really got going at international level. that doesn't make him a bad player does it?

23rd July 2008, 13:53	#103 (permalink)
crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: <Insert something funny here> Posts: 11,490	Zola is definitely overrated, very easy on the eye but not as good or effective as some make him out to be.