Greek Player banned for giving Nazi Salute

sparky

I never said it did.

Keltoi

Hence why I said "others".

Brosstan

You sound like you read this on a left-ish propaganda site. Their flag has obvious similarities to the Nazi flag but its not a swastika. There is no "self-proclaimed jew-hate" in their manifesto, nor the focus on violence that is one of the key points of fascist ideology. They do stand for views of state ownership and economics that are in concordance with fascism but that is a legitimate political stance.

Jeez I sound like I vote for the Norwegian Defence League right now I vote left or central btw, but it annoys me when people take any right-wing thoughts and twist it into "lol nazi bastards".

Oh and you certainly didnt get any info from "their website" unless you are one of very few Irishmen below 20 years old who can read Greek fluently.

Kaos

The "Get rich or die trying" tattoo he has suggests he's a big 50 cent fan.

Definitely not racist.

SteveJ

But it's about more than 'just' the Holocaust. Yes, cases of this kind should ideally be evaluated on a case-by-case basis but it's difficult to be so impartial about a legacy which plunged the world into chaos. The bigger picture is the knock-on effect of Nazi glamorisation in the modern world: how many young people, including that Greek player, wrongly equate Nazism with a kind of macho idea of strength, bravery and martial heroism? Yet their victims were often the most defenceless people of all; some fucking heroes, those Nazis...

Keltoi

Hey Suarez's great great grandfather was black remember!

Brosstan

You make good points. The problem as I see it arises when people like Jake here jump on the opportunity just by hearing the word "nationalist" to make them seem like violent bastards who cant wait to instigate a new holocaust as soon as they get an opening, when there is no proof that they are planning genocide or other monstrosities. One group's actions in the past has made a much broader spectrum of thoughts forbidden ground politically.

Should we ban communism just because Stalin, Mao et al. were responsible for the deaths of millions (more people than the nazis actually)

This thread is on the path of being moved to CE.

Snake Plissken

Had Di Canio not left he might have got a contract at Swindon

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

I applaud his club and Nation for their reaction. If only racism was treated the same way....

Eboue

That's my position as well so I'm not sure why you quoted me

Brosstan

I hadnt read your other posts so I misinterpreted it.

Big Papi

That's the first thing I thought of!

jakec

No I don't Brosstan.

I just actually know what I'm talking about. I know about the Nationalist Parties in Greece, and they're not passive parties. They are violent.

I'd advise you to research Golden Dawn, and the history of the Nazi Salute before you accuse others of jumping the gun.

He didn't show a Nationalist Salute.

He showed a Nazi salute.

kouroux

His auntie's friend cousin's sister has a black cat too

Brosstan

I did some research yesterday and I found nothing in unbiased sources that back up your claims about violence from the party itself. When you say things like "they are self-proclaimed jew haters" and "their logo is a swastika", claims that are blatantly wrong, you lose all credibility.

Stick

Didn't the Nazi's take most of their salutes and symbols from the Romans?

Irwynwastheking

Fucking Nazis, ruined a perfectly good salute, a perfectly good tash, a perfectly good march and when was the last time you met a child called Adolf?

Keltoi

Not to mention Hitler ruined a perfectly good stash too, yet you have Joesph Stalin who murdered much more than Hitler (who gets all the bad press) yet Joesph and his stash are still all the rage!

Irwynwastheking

I said the tash you numptie. The nazi's would never have stood for such shoddy reading.

Keltoi

However in Soviet Russia you'd have got away with it.

SteveJ

I think you're trying too hard to give Golden Dawn the benefit of the doubt by virtue of semantics.

Brosstan

Im trying hard because its unfair to take the actions of people who identify with the party because of the historical meaning of "nationalism" and put the responsibility of those actions on the party. Especially when there is nothing like the classical fascist "violent revolution" in said party's manifesto. Racist idiots will be more inclined to identify with a nationalist party. Even on the wikipedia-site, the only source that reports violent tendencies from members of the nationalist party is a far-left newspaper which ironically has had close connections to extreme left terrorist organisations itself.

The only thing in the manifesto that is critique-worthy at all is a point about the importance of racial heritage for the success of a nation-state. A point that will most likely be the basis of immigration-restrictive policies and possibly discriminatory policies, but again, the latter is a hypotethical inference mostly based on the negative history of nationalism and not facts.

SteveJ

Ok, Bross, but if a party wants to avoid giving the wrong impression to all & sundry, they don't choose a swastika-like symbol on a red background as their party flag, surely? The thoroughly-respectable and ancient Meander symbol is a blatantly transparent & convenient 'cover story'.

Brosstan

They obviously want the attention of said idiots for votes, which is a bad omen.

But its not proof that they have plans of holocaust v 2.0. You cant ban nationalism as a whole because one nationalist extremist party commited horror crimes in the past. The international community would never allow a new Nazi-Germany anyway. Especially not in Europe. The nationalist party knows this no doubt - I find it very unlikely that it will turn into a violent revolution between races if they get more power.

ciderman9000000

It'd make for some great computer games in the future if they did though, Bross. Every cloud and all that.

As much as I love shooting terrorists, the satisfaction gained from such just doesn't compare to that of shooting nazis. Nobody even plays single player Call of Duty/Modern Warfare and the like anymore because the story lines are absolute bollocks. I watched Zero Dark Thirty last week and it bored me to fucking tears. In many ways, a new and serious, violent uprising from a tooled-up neo-nazi organisation is exactly what the entertainment industry has been crying out for; and with all due respect, this Greek player was never gonna appear on the cover of Fifa, was he? He's doing his bit is all. What more could anyone ask of him?

Brosstan

"My Big Fat Greek Holocaust", directed by Michael Bay, starring Nikolos Anitonopolidis as evil Greek footballer and hate-inciter Giorgos Katidis and Shia LeBoeuf as American hero who saves Europe from an era of tzatziki and ouzo.

jakec

Hold on.

Are you trying to tell me now, that these guys aren't racist thugs?

I'm not saying at all that all right wing people are racist thugs, but these are. 100 percent, fascist racist scum.

Do you know anything about there leader, or the time he was arrested for having guns and explosives in his possession.

Or their official views on the holocaust?

We can debate the other points all day long about the unfair judgement on the moderate right as being racist fascists. But Golden Dawn are nothing but.

Brosstan

Please man, sources. I did some research yesterday and I didnt find anything reliable of the sorts you are talking about. As far as my googling showed me you are just regurgitating left-wing propaganda. All the wikipedia-sources in that direction stem from a single source; a left-wing newspaper with prior connections to extreme left-wing terror organisations. Hardly an unbiased source. If you are correct then please enlighten me. I just want to have the facts straight.

jakec

They are an extremist party, can you not gather that?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-881303.html

They're a member of international Nazi organisations.

http://www.todayszaman.com/newsDetai...?newsId=283673

''Commenting on criticism addressed to his party over its racist calls, Mihaloliakos said, “Yes, we are racist and nationalist and we are not hiding that.” He also harshly criticized Thessaloniki Mayor Yiannis Boutaris, who wants to name one of the Greek streets after the founder of the Republic of Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.''

They're well known to vandalize Synagogues and other places of Jewish worship

Do a little research, because they are an extremist party, fact.

Brosstan

That second link is pretty damning

jakec

I'm a well known critic of Israel foriegn, and domestic policy. But here.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...9#.UUiz1hw0ySo

Greece's neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party has denounced the country's decision to mark International Holocaust Remembrance Day, calling it “unacceptable.”

Golden Dawn MP Ioannis Lagos lashed out at the country's education and interior ministers over new regulations requiring state institutions and schools to commemorate Holocaust Remembrance Day on January 27, in commemoration of the over six million murdered at the hands of the Nazis.

"We have received complaints that on this day, in Greek schools, texts are read which praise the Jews and at the same time portray them as heroes," Lagos said, according to The International Business Times.

"Given that at the same time Greek children are completely ignorant of important moments in Greek history and of the real holocausts and heroes of the Greeks, we find it unacceptable that they are taught about the Jewish Holocaust in detail," he said.

In a separate statement, Golden Dawn accused the Greek government of being "the pawn of international Zionism" and of conspiring with Israeli and American Jewish groups.

According to The International Business Times, the party maintained that Athens had abandoned Syria's "legitimate leader, Bashar al-Assad" and supported "the murderers of the Syrian opposition", alleging it was acting according to the will of "American-Zionist war hawks".

Golden Dawn leader Nikolaos Michaloliakos claimed last year that Nazi concentration camps did not use ovens and gas chambers to exterminate Jews during the Holocaust.

"There were no ovens — it's a lie. I believe it's a lie. There were no gas chambers either," Michaloliakos said at the time.

The blatantly anti-Semitic and xenophobic party, which received a surge in popularity in the country’s June general election, campaigned under the slogan “So we can rid the land of filth” and holds frequent anti-Semitic and anti-immigrant rallies.



In this video he calls Hitler ''A great man of the 20th Century''

Brosstan

I dont see anything about promoting violence in any of that.

white text

jakec

You fascist loon, i hope you get jailed

LemonChiffon text

love you really x

Brosstan

dicko

The holocaust happened. Those who deny it are stirring trouble not taking part in 'debate'. Man United play at Old Trafford, Obama is president of the US, a new pope was elected recently, the holocaust happened. These are facts not opinions. There are laws against inciting violence in most countries and a part of government's role is to uphold the law.

Eboue

Of course it happened but so does evolution and global warming and many other events throughout history but we still let people debate them. Holocaust denial laws violate free speech.

MJJ

http://www.channel4.com/news/racist-...of-golden-dawn

Posted already?

Van Piorsing

Yup. I kinda miss Wolfenstein and Medal Of Honor's classic WWII atmosphere.

I learned a lot of German words, while playing.

dicko

Of course such laws violate free speech. Free speech is not an absolute. There are laws against libel and slander. I expect there would be consequences if I turned up at the twin towers site with an Al Qaeda flag and a banner "A good start. Now lets kill the rest of America". People have been banned from here for comments about Munich, Hillsborough and wishing death on others. Free speech is important but not sacrosanct.

Evolution and global warming deniers are generally non-violent and not linked to groups advocating genocide. Mainstream debate on evolution is about 'How' rather than 'If'. Similarly, mainstream global warming debate has moved from 'Is it happening' to 'What are the causes'.

Holocaust deniers tend to have an anti-Jewish agenda. In the west, they are often linked to violent right-wing extremist groups. Unlike your other topics, there also appears to be a rise in holocaust denial which, I assume, means western Jews feel more threatened. What is more important - allowing hate-mongers to lie so they can incite violence or legislating against the lies?

As far as I know, Germany is the only major western country with holocaust denial laws. This is reasonable considering their history.

Eboue

People being banned on here isn't relevant. It's a private forum, those in charge can run it as they see fit.

What is more important? The right to free speech is more important.