Mikel documents forged

The Hairdryer

Geez, I even remember where I heard the term ITC now.

You even need to get an ITC for an amatuer player. I remember when I cleared from the UK to Australia here I had to get one.

Totally seperate from a professional contract Taipan.

Taipan

Keep going. Don't stop. Please. You're cracking me up.

But whatever you do, don't follow that link to the fifa regulations and see where I got that quote from.

Carry on.

The Hairdryer

Where does it say in that document that a players contract is only valid if the club recieves and ITC for that player?

It doesn't. You're talking shite.

All you've proved is that a club can't register a player to play in a new association if he doesn't have an ITC, or if the former club claims their contract hasn't expired.

As I said straw clutching at it's best.

Taipan

You're getting increasingly desperate now. Now that you've backed away a quickly as you could from your statement that ITC are only for amateurs, your starting to argue against things that I haven't said. I never said that the validity of a contract depends on an ITC, and I've never said that is what the FIFA regulations said either. You are inventing stuff to try to come up with a coherent argument, and it isn't working.

I've said that there is no way United could have get hold of Mikel's registration through an ITC without Lyn's forgery. Dispute that instead of making up stuff to dispute. If you can't dispute it, say so or stop posting.

The Hairdryer

You're bonkers.

Where have I said ITCs are only for amatuers? All I said was amatuers even need them.




United never applied for an ITC as they didn't plan to use Mikel until the following the season. He was left on loan at Lynn, thus he didn't transfer between associations, thus he didn't need an International Clearance Certificate.

Not that difficult to understand really.

Kelvin

Chelsea supporters desperate for the 12m back, oh please fuck off. There is no chance.

Chris H

FFS, this is the Redcafe Football Forum. If your argument depends on the precise implications of the FIFA transfer regulations for the Issuance of an International Transfer Certificate for a Professional, you might be out of luck when it comes to convincing anyone.

Just throw in one last "You're a mong" or "Are you completely mental?" each so we can close the argument, and the thread. A winner will be declared in about 6 years time when the legal haggling ends, and a financial settlement is agreed to but never disclosed to the press.

Although of course, the real winner is clearly United, because even if we have to give back all of Chelsea's money, at least we didn't end up with that awful c*** Obi Mikel.

fatboy

Funny how the Chelsea supporters all see it only one way, whereas we see it in another. Were we educated differently? No, it's just fan bias.

And right now, I'm waiting to see how much trouble United can get into for all these shady dealings in which Chelsea is apparently an innocent party. We'll see if the day comes if a single cent is paid back to Chelsea. To be honest, given Chelsea's position I don't think they'll even want to try.

Oh and thanks for the money, we bought ourselves a very handy player in Michael Carrick. He helped us to get the league title back.

Taipan

Here:
Still dancing around the issue. You've called me bonkers. Said I'm talking shit, and clutching at straws, and invented stuff I haven't said. The best you can do is say it wasn't relevant for the remainder of that season. But you haven't addressed what I've said. Was Mikel going to stay in Norwey for his entire career?

I'll try to get you to address what I've said again. If you can do it you can call me as many names as you like:

THERE IS NO WAY THAT UNITED COULD SECURE MIKEL'S REGISTRATION WITHOUT LYN'S FORGERY.

Dispute that. If you can.

The Hairdryer

Sure, when you posted the Issuance of an ITC (International Transfer Certificate) for a Professional earlier you convientely left out clause 5 which states that you can register a player with out the permission of his former club.


and clause seven, which again suggest you don't need official documentation. (A fax is not a legal document)

.

See two possible ways that United could have secured Mikel's registration without any documentation, forged or not, from Lyn.

Spider

anderson > mikel

nares22

hehehe.....stuipid player. gets red cards in OT....cant be part of the team

The Hairdryer

I said a ITC is different from a professional contract which is 100% correct.

I did not say you don't require a ITC if you're a professional, which is what you're trying to imply that I said.

Taipan

Surely this post is a pisstake. You can't be serious. Having read the FIFA transfer regulations the best way for you can come up with for United to legally get Mikel's registration is to hope that nobody at the Norwegian FA responds to your request for an ITC for 30 days? And you said I was clutching at straws.

Just how are you going to get the Noggies to not respond to your request for Mikel's ITC? Send them all on a round the world cruise and then send in your request?

By the way, your second option (clause 7) for legally registering Mikel still relies on the forgery from Lyn. It just lets you work off a fax of the ITC rather than the original paperwork. The only way you would get that is for still for Lyn to lie to the the Norwegian FA and say that the contract situation with is all fine and dandy. That won't stand up in court.

That just leaves you with only your first option for legally getting Mikel's registration - that of hoping the Norwegian FA take more than 30 days to respond to your request for an ITC.

This thread has come a long way. At the start it was United had a legally binding contract with Mikel regardless of what Lyn did. Chelsea can fuck themselves. Now thanks to The Hairdryer you're at maybe if the Norwegian FA didn't respond to our request for an ITC in 30 days we could legally register him.

Good luck with that.

Chris H

Actually, most of us are at the point of "tweak the tweaker", "point and chuckle", or "post irrelevancies into the thread". So answer me this - would the first clause of the FIFA guidelines for the Issuance of an International Transfer Certificate for a Professional even apply if it could be proved, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Obi Mikel was in fact a bird?

Also, Eagles>Mikel.

CnutOfAllCnuts

If Lyn hadn't got a contract with him, we could obviously still have signed him.

CnutOfAllCnuts

According to lawyers and experts commenting on this case in the Norwegian press, FC Lyn might be fecked. But not because of a claim from Chelsea, but the Norwegian state might claim the money:

- According to Norwegian criminal law, the state can claim the money they received from the Mikel deal.
- The issue here is the 60m NOK that Lyn received, not the total 195m NOK that Chelsea paid.
- Because the settlement between Lyn, Chelsea, United and John Shittu was done after the filing for a court case against Morgan Andersen, Chelsea will not make any claims.
- The settlement was done with the knowledge that the case could be tried in Norwegian court.

GloryHunter07

Well said

fatboy

So after all is said and then, we get to keep our money, and Mikel is now wasting away on the Chelsea bench. Back to square one, and everyone (including Chelsea) is happy.

Except Taipan apparently.

Taipan

Yes. And you did. A hotly contested contract I might add, but still a contract. Yet to be tested in court.

But even if you tested that contract in court and won there is no way you could have got his registration without Lyn's forgery. Unless you can read those fifa transfer regulations and come up with something better than sending in a request to the Norwegian FA for Mikel's ITC and hope they don't reply in 30 days as Hairdryer did.

Chelsea paid you to secure his registration. But for Lyn's forgery, his registration was never United's to sell. At best you had a worthless contract with Mikel. It was worthless because you couldn't get his registration without Lyn's forged contract - unless you sent in your request for an ITC to the Norwegian FA and they didn't reply in 30 days, of course.

Skholesy

So lads, at the end of all that, legal issues aside, does that mean that mikel actually signed for united out of being afraid of being paid less/sacked etc on the basis of a contract that was forged? Does that mean that he was truthful when he said he wanted to join chelsea all along?

If so, doesn't it mean that he's not that cunt we've made him out to be over the past couple of years? If this is the case then a lot of people on the caf will be made to look like total muppets for branding him a cunt!

That includes me, by the way - shite, if that was the case, i feel bad for the lad (whether he supports/plays for chelsea or not)...imagine the poor fecker having to cope with thousands of posts branding him a cunt on internet forums, not to mention any hate mail he'd have received for the saga!

2Bullish

Norwegian criminal lawyer $15,000
Loss of match bonuses $190,000
Lack of medals to sell later $45,000
Money paid to Man Utd $27,000,000


Warming the second row of the bench at Chelsea and generally being anonymous:

Priceless

CnutOfAllCnuts

1) United's contract with Mikel had nothing to do with Lyn, and Lyn's contract with Mikel.

2) The forged contract aside, Mikel was still a Lyn player, on an amateur contract.

3) Irrelevant of Mikel's relationship with Lyn, United could have signed him on a free, if Lyn had not held Mikel's registration.

4) All of this is irrelevant, seeing as Chelsea, Manchester United, Lyn and Mikel made a settlement.

5) If United's contract with Mikel was not legal, then surely Chelsea's current contract with Mikel is not legal, hence Mikel would be a free agent and free to join any club he wants now.

6) I don't think Chelsea would want to take this any further, in fear of what could be revealed in terms of their breach of FIFA rules...

CnutOfAllCnuts

From the Norwegian FT:

http://avis.dn.no/artikler/avis/article7178.ece

Translated (just a summary, can't be bothered translating the whole article)

The Mikel process:

Through middle-men and agents, Chelsea started a partnership with Lyn
regarding young talents from Africa.

Lyn earned £10m on these players. The money from the Mikel sale
ended up in the pockets of the Lyn owner, Atle Brynestad.

By taking advantage of their secret partnership with Chelsea, the Lyn director, Morgan Andersen,
managed to earn Lyn £10m on African players. This money was secretely transferred from
Lyn to the Lyn owner's (Atle Brynestad) private business.

The FIFA rules are clear. European clubs are not allowed to sign contracts with
non-EU citizens before they are 18. The clubs are not allowed to give these youngsters money
eiether, in any way or form.

But clubs do anyway, through middle-men and agents.

The real story about Mikel starts when his club, Plateu United,
are paid £30k in 2003. Mikel is 16, and Chelsea and United have fallen in
love with him. Neither club will ever own up to paying this money, seeing as it
was an illegal payment. Neither of the clubs can publicly claim
to own the player at this stage, hence this hidden system must depend on trust.

Mikel was discovered by Joseph Dosu, former Nigerian International. He has previously
claimed that Chelsea paid to release him from Plateu United.

Dosu works as an advisor for young footballers for the Nigerian FA,
hence he could not himself represent Mikel as his agent. He put Mikel
in contact with John Shittu, a non-licensed Nigerian football agent.

It was Shittu who transferred the £30k to Mikels Club, Plateu. Shittu
worked as a talent scout for The Sports Enertainment & Media Grouo (SEM). SEM
was paid by Chelsea to scout for talents.

In the U-17 world cup in Finland in 2003, Mikel was brilliant, and the race for his
signature increased. A month after the world cup, it all came to head at the airport
in Lagos. In an attempt to capture Mikel and three other young Nigerian players, Chelsea invited
all four to train with the club. All four had got tickets for the flight to London,
but in one way or another, United knew about Chelsea plan, and when the boys arrived
at the airport, a man from Manchester was there. And when the flight landed in London,
Mikel was not on the plane. He arrived in Manchester instead.

It was still another year and a half before Mikel was 18 and "legal". Lots could happen during
this period, and the interest from Manchester United's manager, Sir Alex Ferguson, seemed
to have faded. That's when Chelsea stepped in again.

"We sent Mikel to Ajax Cape Town in SOuth Africa" says a central Chelsea source.

The trusted Chelsea official explains how Chelsea broke the FIFA rules, in an attempt to keep
an eye on Mikel until he turned 18, when they could sign him.

Chelsea demanded that Ajax Cape Town signed a document saying Mikel belonged to Chelsea. The document
was written on Ajax Cap Town's headed paper, on Ajax's PC, but dictated by Chelsea. No traces left.

According to the Chelsea source, Chelsea paid Mikel 200 rands a month, during the 6.month stay in Cape Town -
also illegal according to FIFA's rules. The money did not come directly from Chelsea, but via Shittu and SEM.

Six months after arriving in Cape Town, the four Nigerian boys suddenly found themselves in Oslo. The idea to
place them in Norway came from Rune Hauge's agency.

The problem was that it was not legal according to FIFA's rules.

Lyn struggled financially, and Morgan Andersen was employed to sort out the mess at the club. How could the club
increase it's revenue.

The answer was money transfers. Rune Hauge had a partnership with The Norwegian Elite Athelete's College. With
support from SEM, Hauge's company contacted this college regarding the players.

Central sources in Hauge's system confirms that one of the reasons to place the players at the college was
to help Chelsea get around the FIFA rules. Hauge's company was SEM'S partner in Norway. Chelsea paid SEM, SEM paid Rune Hauge.

£180k was transferred to a Norwegian account. This should cover school fees, accommodation and living costs for the four players.
The money, again, originated really from Chelsea. This publication also know that Chelsea paid the four player a salary when they
were in Norway.

Neither the school money or the pocket money came directly from Chelsea though. One way to sort out these payments was to over-pay
SEM for their scouting deal - so that SEM could fix everything, whithout any traces going back to Chelsea. But, when at a point
there was a problem with the pocket money, and Mikel and the other three went on strike and refused to attend classes, Chelsea interferred,
and the responsibility for the players was transferred to Rune Hauge.

In August 2004 a deal between the College and Rune Hauge was signed, to accommodate the players. Two weeks later, Hauge witnessed that Morgan Andersen
signed a document which stated that Lyn were not allowed to sell Mikel. To protect Chelsea's interest, Rune Hauge made a deal with Lyn, and point
four in the deal states that Lyn has no rights whatsoever in regards to a transfer to another club.

As a former Players' Union leader in Norway, Andersen knew FIFA would not accept the deal. Agents are not allowed to own footballers, as Andersen
think the deal stated.

There are no doubts that Lyn and Chelsea had a close relationship regarding the four Nigerian players. Chelsea looked at the players as their property,
and Lyn followed Chelsea's demands. This publication know of correspondence between the two clubs, where Lyn's medical team reports to Chelsea about the
players fitness and injuries.

15th September 2004 Morgan Andersen and Lyn signed two amateur contracts with Mikel, which Shittu signed one as Mikel's representative. The other one was
sent to Nigeria to Mikel's father, who signed it.

In April 2005, things started to happen quickly. Chelsea got a message from an Englishman living in Oslo. He had seen United's scouts together with
the four Nigerian players at a coffee bar in Oslo. Chelsea's Gwyn Williams travelled to Oslo, intent on getting the same from Lyn as they got
from Ajax Cape Town; a document stating that Mikel was owned by Chelsea.

At the same time Rune Hauge's company started putting pressure on Lyn. It was his company's responsibility that the players' stay in Oslo happened
as Chelsea wanted it to. The plan was a long-term relationship between Lyn and Chelsea. And Hauge was to be paid £200k a year for his role. If Hauge
failed, he could risk his future relationship with Chelsea.

Lyn and Morgan Andersen ignored Chelsea's offers and proposals. The Lyn owner's (Atle Brynestad) business struggled. He needed money. 22nd April 2005 Mikel
turned 18. Lyn claims Mikel signed his first professional contract that weekend. Not with Chelsea, not with United. But with Lyn.

This signature would have massive importance for Lyn. With Mikel signing a professional contract, Lyn could demand as much they wanted for him.

WIth Mikel's amateur contract, Lyn didn't have these rights. If a club offered Mikel a pro contract whilst still an amateur, Lyn would only receive a tiny
compensation for him.

But, Lyn kept quiet about the professional contract. No P.R. release, no press conference. Nothing.

Mikel's pro contract reveals some interesting information. Compared to the seven-month old amateur contract, the two contracts are very similar. It looks like
the first page is changed, so the dates are different. As well as the last page, with dates and signatures.

Mikel's salary is not changed; 33,500 Norwegian Kroner a month.

Everyone involved agrees that there are something wrong with the contracts today. But people are blaming each other.

Andersen has previously been done for fiddling with receipts, when he was leader for the Norwegian Athlete's Union.

Already when Lyn sorted out Mikel's professional contract, the club knew that Manchester United wanted to make a bid for the player. Contact with the English club
was established 15th April - one week before the professional contract was signed. Lyn knew there was money to be gained. And they also knew that if Mikel went to Chelsea,
they would get peanuts. The club ignored the agreements done with Chelsea.

But, Chelsea had no legal rights, and FIFA would never accept the agreements, most of them done verbally.

29th April 2005, a week after the professional contract was signed, Mikel signed for United, for £5m.

Rune Hauge got the news on TV that evening. He called his friend, Manchester United manager Sir Alex Ferguson, and told him they had played dirty. Ferguson said his club had followed the rule book.

Neither Chelsea or United want to comment on the case. Both claims the clubs have made a confidenciality agreement regarding the Mikel deal.

And apparently, Sir Alex threatened to beat up Peter Kenyon because of this...

Red For Ever

Mikel is not a United player