Predicted league finish for Spurs this season.

Pat_Mustard

City's form was also considerably better later in the season. They got 29 points in the final 19 games of the season. If you're going to make that point as being a reason why you expect Spurs to do better than last year then it stands true for City as well. Similarly, if you're taking into account the likes of Palacios and Keane as you signed them mid-season last year, then you've got to take into account City's mid-season signings - Given, Bridge, De Jong and Bellamy. Factor in Santa Cruz, Barry, Toure, Tevez and Adebeyor and that's a vastly better body of signings than Spurs have made. If you rate Crouch as a good signing then I fail to see how you can't be impressed by Adebeyor and Given in particular. Basically,

------------------------Given-----------------------
Zabaleta/Richards----Toure------Dunne---------Bridge
----------De Jong/Kompany---Barry-------------------
------------------------Ireland-----------------------
------------Robinho------------------Tevez----------
------------------------Abedeyor--------------------

is a much better team on paper than your first XI, with better quality in reserve. You don't have the track record of spirit and effectiveness as a team that the likes of Everton have that would allow me to realistically classify you as favourites to finish above City. I think you'll finish behind the big 4 and City, and probably Everton, but above Villa in 7th place.

AttackingFlair

Has a good through ball and pass, good link up play. Wouldn't say he's the best but definitely "one of" in my opinion.

Christofaux

There's also not an abundance of great RB's in the league at the moment. So to be top of the pops is more like gold at the special olympics at the moment. Sagna is better though... and his hair gets him platinum at the special olympics.

AttackingFlair

I'd agree that Sagna is the best RB in the league.

RedThaiDevils#7

Don't know if you've watched spurs enough to say both of them should be paired together. It was this pairing in the first place that made spurs sell defoe since it never worked out. Just maybe Harry can conjure some magic for both of them to play together.

RedThaiDevils#7

Agree. Arsenal tend to find really good fullbacks.

Jens' Face

Sadly, I think Sagna is just living off the reputation he made for himself two seasons ago. Last year -- all of it -- he was definitely not the best rb in the league. He was kind of poor actually. He's never going to be one of the very best in going forward, but last year he was often at a loss even defensively.

Hope we see the 07-08 Sagna begin his return this Saturday.

RedThaiDevils#7

Can you state how he wasn't good last season ? How was he living off his reputation and who was the best RB in the league ? And how on earth can you call Sagna poor ? Arsenal's defense due to many a reason was poor yes Toure off form Gallas injured Silvestre was again showing signs of age. Sagna wasn't at all the weak point.

Christofaux

Clichy had a worse year the sagna. I think both fullbacks will benefit from having a more solid CB pairing in Gallas and Vermaelen.

kouroux

Hey Glaston, you create this thread and ask for predictions regarding your team's position in the league by the end of it and we generally answered around 7th-8th and it seems like you don't appreciate the answers
What did you really expect ? Maybe more explanations but I don't think there is a lot to talk about as the name of "Spurs" is just enough to explain things.
You always have some promising teams and decent players and cannot deliver at all(got rid of Martin Jol ffs who was doing well).

GlastonSpur

I've simply put Corluka in my suggested line-up for Spurs best XI. But if he doesn't play for whatever reason, then right now we still have Naughton, Hutton and Chimbonda who can replace him: all decent players.

From what I've seen of Naughton so far in pre-season (although it's obviously not the best arena in which to make a judgement), he could quickly become the preferred understudy to Corluka.

GlastonSpur

Fair comment, although Spurs did gain 2 points more (31 points) than City from the last 19 games.

I don't agree that it's a better first XI than that which I cited for Spurs.

I'd place Gomes on a par with Given, Corluka is the better RB, King and Woodgate are far the better CB pairing and Ekotto is either better than Bridge or just as good.

Palacios and Jenas are just as good a combo as De Jong and Barry, Modric is better than Ireland, and Lennon + Defoe + Crouch is IMO just as good as Robinho + Tevez + Adebayor

Again that not's true. You've listed their first XI, so now list their 2nd XI and compare it with the Spurs 2nd XI listed earlier.

City right now are more a collection of players and less of a gelled team - you can hardly right now, until it's proved otherwise, ascribe more effectiveness and spirit to them than to Spurs.

soapythecat

Strong shout. Glen Johnson, as much as it pains me to say, is quite handy at RB and I bet he has a good season with the dippers. Wes will put them all to shame when he's back mind!

cw1984

Jol didnt fancy the mas a pairing, Redknapp will make them work.

Trigg

Lennon, Defoe and Crouch are no where near as good as Robinho, Tevex and Adebayor. Nonsense.

cw1984

and you can't claim we're bias here because we're comparing City against Spurs, and i'd desperately love Spurs to finish higher than City.

I actually don't agree that the team listed above is City's best line up but let's use it anyway.

Gomes v Given: Given is better. Blind bias is leading you to believe otherwise.

Corluka v Richards: Corluka. Easily.

King + Woodgate v Toure and Dunne: I'd go with King and Woodgate too however, just how many games this season will they actually play together? So for that reason you'd have to take Toure and Dunne.

Ekotto v Bridge: Close, but i'd take Bridge. He's done it more consistantly at a better level.

Palacios + Jenas v De Jong + Barry: Extremely even. I couldnt pick one over the other, especially if Jenas get's back to anything like people know he can play.

Modric v Ireland: Modric is probably the more talented player, but going off last seasons form alone (as that's all we have to judge Modric in this country) Then Ireland outshone him by a fucking mile. Ireland was superb last year. One of the players of the season.

Lennon, Defoe + Crouch v Robinho, Adebayor and Tevez is where you really make your argument come across as extremely bias. While i'm a huge fan of Defoe and i think Lennon could certainly be ahead of his best ever season the Spurs 3 are no where near the City 3 in terms of class. I'm sorry Glaston but they're just not.

FWIT my own personal view on either side's best 11 is:


Both look really good on paper but City's has more class, plus they don't have the achillies heel of having a World Class central defensive partnership that's probably only going to play 20 games as an actual partnership and that, once again imo, will be Spurs' biggest problem.

OK lets compare 2nd teams.

The one you posted earlier was:


City's would be (going off my best 11 for them)

Still with a bench of:
Ben-Haim and Bejnani.

Again, i'd probably take that City team over the Spurs one...

Laphroaig

I'm expecting a non-top four top four this season. I can see Everton, Villa, Tottenham and City fighting for the 5th spot. Villa look a bit weakened to me, Everton are Everton and Tottenham and City are unpredictable. I suspect one of them will fare well (5th or 6th) while the other disappoint and finish 8th. And tbh, I'm pretty sure the latter team will be Tottenham.

Jens' Face

I don't know quite how to explain without collating specific examples of ineffective defending, which I can't do. It was just that he didn't play nearly as well as he had the year before. One representative match was the CL tie at Roma. They had plenty of joy down our right side, getting behind Sagna and going past him time and again. When Sagna's on form, his two great virtues are intelligence (=positioning and anticipation) and persistence. His reading of the game was worse last year. And, while he's not slow, neither does he have the pace of someone like Clichy. If his reading of the game is off, he gets exposed for pace. Clichy who's reading of the game is often off, can usually compensate for that by being The Flash.

Who was better at rb last year? Well, I don't watch other teams with the attention I watch Arsenal, but I'd say definitely Arbeloa, Johnson, and O'Shea and possibly a host more.

He might have done. Perhaps I focused my frustration on Sagna because I was expecting more from him than I was from Clichy, who had made a bunch of really crucial errors in the preceding season.

I do think both our fullbacks tended be overrated last year. In any case, I think fans have a tendency to wrongly let them off the hook for our defensive problems, as compared with central defense and central midfield.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Sagna did improve, both individually and alongside an improved team defensive effort. If you asked me which year was more likely the aberration, I'd guess last year when his performance slacked off. We'll see what happens.

Pat_Mustard

I don't really have much to add to what CW1984 said to be honest, but its worth repeating some of his points. Gomes is nowhere near as good as Given. Corluka's a better RB than whoever City play there, but Ekotto isn't as good as Bridge. The centre back issue is a difficult one - on paper Woodgate and King is an exceptionally strong partnership, but all their injuries and the resultant instability make it impossible to view it as a strong area for you. Everything that you've said about the respective midfields is highly questionable, but you're deluding yourself if you really think that your attack is comparable to Robinho, Tevez and Adebeyor.

Basically, City look at least as solid as you do and have more bona fide matchwinners. Quite simply Ireland, Robinho, Tevez and particularly Adebeyor are a far more intimidating prospect to come up against than any 4 of your attacking players.

I wouldn't argue that City have in any way demonstrated more spirit and togetherness than Spurs, or vice versa. At this point neither of them have shown themselves to be consistently effective units in the way that Everton and Villa have done. That being the case, I'll go with the team with the greater quality, and imo that's City by some distance. Believe me when I say I'll be almost as happy as you are if you bump this at the end of the season to point out how wrong I was.

GlastonSpur

The two trios had between them an exactly identical number of league goals and league assists last season, and that's despite Defoe missing much of the 2nd half of the season.

The assists figure do vary between one stats site and another - in this case I've used a site (ESPN Soccernet) that gives an assists figure for Lennon that is 20% less than is available elsewhere.

Of course stats show far from the whole picture. But I'd point out that Crouch and Defoe are a proven effective partnership (at Pompey), whereas we've not yet seen how well Tevez and Adebayor will gel together.

I don't see any solid grounds for claiming that the Spurs trio are "nowhere near as good".

cw1984

It's based on each individual player, as that's all we have to go on. And individually, the City trio are more talented and i certainly know which 3 i'd rather not come up against.

Pogue Mahone

I wonder if there's a football manager anywhere in the world who, given the choice between those two trios, would decide the Spurs players were the ones for him?

Glaston's beyond deluded when it comes to his own team. I don't know why anyone bothers. This is such a weird thread. It basically involved him setting out his insanely optimistic prediction, asking for alternative opinions, then resolutely setting about convincing everyone that actually his opinion was right all along.

He's an odd one and no mistake.

GlastonSpur

I believe many observers have had their view of Gomes coloured by his shaky start last season (his first in the Prem), even though as we know the whole team had a very shaky start, to put it mildly, until Harry took over. But then he gradually settled down and adjusted and actually became pretty solid and reliable and made some excellent saves.

At home Spurs conceded fewer goals than any other Prem team, and Gomes played a big part in that. His record at PSV was outstanding - the best of any keeper ever at that club. I think that now, in his 2nd Prem season, he'll show what a really good keeper he is.

It's a very fair point about King and Woodgate. However King started 29 games last season, compared to just 7 the season before that, so with the new training regime he now follows his problem seems to more manageable. He may only be able to play one game per week usually now, but you can bet that Harry will only use him in league games, and he'll still turn out a rolls-royce performance in that single game per week.

Woodgate started 44 games last season. Yes he'll miss the first period of this new season due his recent minor op, but after that he might well play the vast majority of subsequent games for all we know.

I'd still take Woodgate and King over Toure and Dunne, even despite the injuries factor.

This will be Modric's 2nd season in the Prem, and he generally got better and better last time as he adjusted to the new league/team. Yes, Ireland had a great season, but the real question is this: who would you rather sign for your team this season given the choice? I believe most would take Modric.

I can only refer you to my post (18.21) on this above.

Cudicini is better than Taylor. I don't know much about Zabeletta tbh, so I'll pass judgment on that one versus Hutton.

Onouha + Dunne vs. Dawson + Bassong. You've cited Dunne twice (for the 1st XI also) - OK, I understand why you've done that, but even leaving it aside I'd say that Dawson and Bassong look just as good to me: Dawson is a pretty good CB and Bassong, if he realises his potential, could become very good.

Johnson - Etuhu- SWP - Bellamy - Petrov compared to ....

Naughton- Bentley- Huddlestone - Keane - Dos Santos

Obviously these are not formations as such, but I reckon the Spurs 5 are much superior taken as a whole.

Santa Cruz v. Pavlyuchenko. Santa Cruz went right off the boil last season, whilst Pav still scored 14 goals in all competitions, despite it being his first in the Prem and having played continous football with no break for well over 12 months. I'll pass judgement on this one, because Santa Cruz could return to his best, Pav could well (and should) improve further - we just don't know at this stage.

You say "Still with a bench of: Ben-Haim and Bejnani." I could say for Spurs "still with a bench that includes O'Hara, Chimbonda, Danny Rose and John Bostock."

Sam

Glaston didnt quote me...gutted

GlastonSpur

5th place for Spurs is hardly an "insanely optimistic prediction" (even I suspect for most of those who don't think we'll make 5th) - the fact that you so describe it just indicates your extremely exaggerated and unbalanced bias.

And I have agreed with several points that have been made against Spurs in this thread, where I think it's justified. Where I don't, I defend what I've said and respond with additional points.

Nor have I said that the Spurs trio are better, only that IMO they are just as good. The stats from last season back that up, as does the proven partnership of Defoe and Crouch, whereas Tevez + Adebayor are unproven as a partnership as yet.

Btw, if Adebayor and Tevez were 'that good', then neither Arsenal nor Man. Utd would have let them go.

GlastonSpur

There you go ....

Pogue Mahone

You think if Mourinho, Ancelloti or Moyes (or any other manager in the fecking world) was offered his choice of one trio or the other he'd spend ages agonising about the decision and conclude that actually they're just as good as each other?

If you genuinely believe that you're out of your mind.

GlastonSpur

I'm confident that Lennon, Modric, Defoe and Crouch will between them score more goals this season than will the City 4.

We shall see ....

Sam

:d

GlastonSpur

Then how come Wenger let Adebayor go? And how come Fergie passed on the chance to keep Tevez? Of course they are good players, but if they rated them as highly as you do, it just wouldn't have happened.

And how many goals has Tevez scored on average per season in his Prem career so far? Care to compare it to Defoe's average? The record of Crouch is not exactly shoddy either.

Pogue Mahone

Adebayor and Tevez aren't amazing players, no but they've both been signed by Wenger and Ferguson, two managers who wouldn't dream of signing the likes of Defoe or Crouch.

Seriously, I can't believe we're having this discussion. And that's without even getting into the whole Lennon vs Robinho thing.

GlastonSpur

You're crazy if you really think that Fergie, given the choice between Owen and Defoe, wouldn't have taken Defoe.

How many years did Crouch play for Liverpool compared the the number of years that Tevez played for United?

Pogue Mahone

Of course he would have signed Defoe on a free. Be mad not to.

Wouldn't be willing to pay 25 million quid for him though, as he was with Tevez. If he was willing to do that he would have signed him years ago.

Scholesy

6-8th for me.

GlastonSpur

I'm saying that if Defoe had been available - and available for the same price as Owen (regardless of what that 'same price' might have been) - then Fergie would have taken Defoe over Owen with very little hesitation.

sincher

Player by player comparisons are a bit spastic anyway. Glaston does this every year, tries to wring every positive that he can out of the spurs mob, and sets himself up for disappointment.

This time last year people were comparing Spurs and Newcastle players, with most deciding that Spurs edged it. A year later, Newcastle are in the championship because they fell apart.

Pogue Mahone

I think you'll find Owen's price was a big factor in Fergie signing him. I mean, obviously.

GlastonSpur

I agree.

The way that partnerships gel (or don't, or take time to gel) - for CBs, in CM, for striker pairings etc - counts for a lot, as does the overall 'balance' to a team in terms of player styles and attributes.

Compared to the last couple of summers there's been far less squad changes at Spurs this time, and a much more settled look to the team. If we're talking about City, then I'd say Spurs have the edge on this count.

GlastonSpur

Of course. But it doesn't change my view that, even if we assumed the same price for both players, Fergie would have taken Defoe over Owen. Don't you agree?

And if you agree, then it rather gives the lie to your earlier claim that "Ferguson ... wouldn't dream of signing the likes of Defoe"

B19

Just like your usual predictions, they won't. Lennon has never scored many goals for a winger, modric likewise is not overly prolific. Crouch and Defoe are good goalscorers, but so are Robinho, Tevez and Ireland. And Adebayor is an outstanding goalscorer.