Rangers go into Administration | Dossier passed to police

rcoobc

And affect the Championship in a positive way. What if you looked at it like Celtic and Rangers join the Championship and Hearts join League One, or just Celtic join the Championship.

Even though you are likely taking away one or two away's from Championship teams you are giving them one or two massive games against big teams. Even if they get promoted, that is two Premier League teams that get relegated and improve the Championship. As long as the revolving door of the Premier League and the Championship teams continues, with small teams like Stoke, Wigan, etc staying up and teams like Sunderland, Newcastle, Everton, Celtic, Rangers going down on occasion, you would be further improving the quality in the Championship.

One or two Championship teams lose out, and go down, and slightly improve League One. The teams that bob up and down between the divisions would get more big days against the likes of the aforementioned Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Everton, Newcastle, Sunderland, etc just rarer than the teams that consistantly stay in the Championship.

As much as you would like to believe otherwise, Scottish teams would add a fair amount to the English game. Of course a few teams will initially lose out greatly upon their arrival, but league restructuring has occurred many times.

I suppose we all still feel sorry for the two teams that lost out when the Premier League went down to 20?

Thick Numpty

Would this really happen though? Would a Rangers fan from Dunfermline suddenly become a Dunfermline fan if Rangers folded? If United folded would a United fan from Birmingham start supporting Aston Villa? Would you support another club if United folded? I'm not sure I would

People thinking Rangers dying is anything but disaster for Scottish Football are incredibly naive. No Rangers, no Old Firm, no Scottish football. It will be the death knell for professional football in Scotland.

Guy Incognito

Yes you are right. Back in the original Football League, teams were invited accordingly. Today, as the Premier League is regulated by the FA, in theory they could kick a team out.

CnutOfAllCnuts

Is fair enough, that is the other side of the argument and a valid one.

Why don't we invite FC Copehagen, Ajax and PSV to join the English league as well?

Anna_Livia

a few quick points:

1.) Yes, you could sell the land for houses but there's hardly a great clamour for land or houses in Govan, so any sale would raise buttons. My point was that valuing a stadium at £80m was plainly ludicrous, when it would never raise that if it came onto the market either as a going concern or a development opportunity. There's a world of difference between the land value of Highbury and Ibrox.

2.) The best recent era of Scottish football for my money was the early 80s, when Rangers and, to a lesser extent, Celtic were moribund and Dundee United and aberdeen challenged for the league year after year. That was only brought to a halt when David Murray took over Rangers and began the big spending era that's just shuddered to a halt. anything that could recreate those days woul be great.

3.) With a bit of luck there won't be any "Old Firm" to join the English leagues. I'm not fussed whether we do or don't get an invite, but my sincerest hope is that Rangers die and we can stop being bracketed with them in future.

CnutOfAllCnuts

With that your aspirations for competing domestically will die as well. Celtic are fucked without Rangers and vice versa.

rcoobc

Because they would add nothing, with respect to them. Like I said before, if you add the Scottish and Welsh teams, how many would get into the national leagues (non regional I mean). 8? or less? Over 3 or 4 divisions?

You would still get all the local derbies you do now, you would still get Newcastle - Sunderland, Portsmouth Southampton and all that. If you just create a European Super League you lose all those derbies.

The other thing is for some clubs Welsh or Scottish teams aren't far. Of course for others they are, but Copenhagen aren't close to anyone in England.

rcoobc

By the way I know I heavily defending the unification arguement, but I would hate it if it was just "Celtic and Rangers join and the rest are fucked."

It should be: Top Scottish team joins the Championship, 2-3 join League One, 4-10 join League Two (newly restructured with North and South), 11+ Join the New League Three (North, Central, South)

That would solve a lot of problems in the lower English Divisions

CnutOfAllCnuts

An hour flight away from London, £49 with Ryanair, as opposed to three hours on the train to London - Glasgow for £80.

Broyphs

Why shouldn't they have to work their way up the leagues? If they want to join they start at the bottom. They'd add fuck all anyway, so they shouldn't be treated as special cases.

Widnes

It really wouldn't, hardly seems fair on the english sides that would be kicked out of the championship and league 1 & 2 to make room for scottish sides aswell.

rcoobc

When you look at it that way, but then you wait for the plane plus 1 hour, drive to the airport plus 1 hour, get taxi from airport to stadium...

And what's worse, getting trains to Glasgow and back in one day, or getting air-planes to Copenhagen and back in one day? I know what I would prefer.

And you are arguing that the closest clubs to Copenhagen is similar to the furthest clubs from Glasgow.

lynchie

The collapse of the Scottish league system could do a lot more to encourage FIFA to push for a GB football team than any poxy olympics. It'll also be interesting if this does force Celtic to join the English leagues, what happens if the Scots then vote for independence.

Cheesy

It's not going to happen in all cases, but there will be plenty of examples where people do decide to turn to their local teams. Rangers and Celtic have massive followings all over Scotland, so there are going to be plenty of cases where this does happen. Not all; but some. I don't see many staying by Rangers if they're put down to the 3rd Division, which would be the likelihood if they folded and formed a new club. Again, I don't see that happening though. They'll probably get away with admin.

CnutOfAllCnuts

I'm obviously playing devil's advocate.

To emphasis that it suits the clubs in question only, and no one else.

rcoobc

They should, Celtic and Rangers have no god given right to join the English Leagues. As I said if there is a merger, it should be performance based, and they should not start from the Premier League.

It really would, the travel cost for Conference sides and below is obscene. And no, it isn't fair for those few clubs, but League restructuring has happened many times in the past, and my 20-24-24-(24-24)-(24-24-24) Idea, if done properly, could benefit a lot of lower league sides in my opinion.

CnutOfAllCnuts

If it was United, don't you think many would staying by United?

rcoobc

Me too. Celtic and Rangers have no god given right to join the Premier League or anywhere else. But if Scottish football collapses, or falls down to near Amateur status, then a merger would be preferable in my opinion.

CnutOfAllCnuts

Why?

If they reach that status, they will only reach a status natural to a country of similar size, such as Denmark, Norway, Ireland etc.

FreakyJim

Because Scotland has strong historical, cultural and political ties with England.

And your suggestion is inviting teams from Denmark and Holland. Why not Ukraine and Uganda too?
Are you serious?

Anna_Livia

Rangers owe Dundee United £100k, Dunfermline £80k, and Hearts close to £1m. They're bad for Scottish football in all sorts of ways....

rcoobc

Well if the situation becomes too bad in Scotland anyway, the Old Firm would definitely leave in some respect, I'd rather it be in one I agree with (controlled merger). Denmark gets teams into the Champions League, and Portugal and the Netherlands do well in World Cups. If Scotland do irreversibly decline, there is likely some truth in the effect the Premier League has had, as well as their own shocking miss-management.

CnutOfAllCnuts

No, as I am against letting Rangers and Celtic in, as they have no place in the English league.

Scotland and England obviously have strong ties and connections, but no tradition or history of havinga joint football league.

K Stand Knut

I think this problem with Rangers is going to prove to have seismic effects on Scottish football. As much as a two horse race is boring in Scotland, a one-horse race is even more boring and i can see it having a massive, detrimental effect on the other clubs in the country.

They must plough so much money into the smaller clubs when they buy their best players but this is just not going to happen as much if they are that short of cash. There will be no competition in the transfer market between Scottish clubs as Celtic know that Rangers cannot match them. There will be little to no competition in any of the competitions, which will ultimately cause the standard of football to drop.

All in all, this is very, very bad news for the whole of Scottish football!

Plan M

!!!Ramshock!!! will be happy.

Cheesy

I could actually see a lot of people just not bothering anymore. They'd still be able to attract relatively big crowds, but anyone thinking that Man United would attract 50000+ down in League 2 is talking nonsense. Also, while United have a massive following in England alone, it's still different to the Old Firm up here. In Scotland, I'd say that the majority of football fans are Old Firm fans, so you're saying that arguably a quarter of Scottish football fans support Rangers. That's a lot, and you could see a lot of those fans turning their back on the club.

Just look at what happened for their game recently against Dundee United. Only 17000 turned up, and back in the 80s when Rangers weren't regularly challenging for the title, they had very low crowds.

Lance Uppercut

rcoobc

They have played many British tournaments and matches though, without European involvement.

rcoobc

West Ham attendances in 2010-11 (Premier League): 33,426
West Ham attendances in 2011-12 (Championship, ongoing): 29,868

Newcastle attendances in 2008-09 (Premier League): 48,749
Newcastle attendances in 2009-10 (Championship): 43,387

Bare in mind that the Championship has 10+ midweeks every year, whereas the Premier League has 2-3, because the Championship plays 46 games.

CnutOfAllCnuts

Even in League 2, United would have huge attendances, and more than most PL clubs.

Cheesy

That's a very different situation though. You're looking at clubs who have fallen down one division. One of those clubs weren't expected to go down, while the other wasn't really that big a shock.

If Rangers were to go under, form a new club and get back into the Scottish league, then they'd go into the 3rd Division, which is like a completely different world. Rangers have never been outside the top flight. Their fans know nothing of playing outside the top flight. The idea of playing in one of the lower league is completely alien to them.

Thick Numpty

You're being massively naive. Nobody, outside their own fans, really gives a shit about either Rangers or Celtic outside of the Old Firm rivalry. Scottish football is massively dependent on SKY TV money. Take away either of the Old Firm and who is going to pay serious amounts of money for the rights to Celtic v Falkirk or St Johnstone? Scottish Football means bollocks all without the Old Firm. It's a tin pot league that nobody would care about, without the rivalry and intensity the Old Firm brings. Celtic fans should be careful what they wish for.

rcoobc

Oh I see. Yes that would be hilarious to be fair.

Edit - How are River Plate getting on in Argentina?

Dave89

He's been going for the reduction ad absurdum approach for the whole thread.

rcoobc

I agree with you Neviller. Scottish football without Rangers is a bleak picture, at least beyond an Amateur status. There have been several articles detailing it to that effect.

The Old Firm have legions of support around the world, and in Scotland, and that funnels into the SPL. Beyond that it isn't a great picture.

CnutOfAllCnuts

The Scottish league is a bit abnormal. It's a small league in a small country, with two MASSIVE clubs on a global scale.

Cheesy

As someone who goes to the games of my local team in the 1st Division, I don't know how I'd feel about lots of new fans flocking in. Part of me would be happy with the increased attendances and increased revenue from it, but then there's the other side which would look at it and think that we've got lots of fans who aren't really fans, if that makes sense.

Gio

Even with demotion I can't see fans switching clubs to any notable extent, I don't know any proper football fans who've changed their allegience. As you say a large chunk wouldn't bother and a smaller proportion might look towards local teams. That's a potential benefit in terms of redistributing fan bases. Despite Anna Livia's glee however, in reality this would be more than offset by the lack of ticket revenue from the twice-yearly visits of the club and the reduced TV money brought by an SPL without Rangers.

rcoobc

For those interested, here is a current map of the Premier League teams, Championship teams, League One teams, and SPL teams.

At least distance wise, it's no different for the Northern English teams between themselves and Scottish teams, and themselves and London teams. Although arguments will then be made for Cultural reasons, and how easy it is to get to Scotland compared to London, the distance isn't that different.

Team Brian GB

Their leagues are not the premier league.

The Premier League doesn't gain anything from it, it opens up a can of worms with regard to relations between the FA and the Scottish FA and then if you talk about amalgamating leagues the natural extension is to amalgamate the national teams.