Real Madrid

Pogue Mahone

That's a very particular selection of players you've gone for there. Three defenders and a keeper we can ignore, seeing as Fergie rotates those positions far less, if at all.

Which leaves us with Rooney and Ronaldo. The two players that Fergie builds his whole team around.

If you can't come up with anyone else who's started more games than Carrick, then I rest my case. He's been one of our most important players and has consistently been one of (note, not "the first") the first names on the team-sheet throughout his entire career.

Cina

I don't see his point. Carrick is our best midfielder (excluding a 37 year old Scholes). Obviously he's one of the first on the team sheet. It'd be mental if he wasn't.

Though I do remember that at times Fergie has saved him just for European games, when players like Anderson and Fletcher were actually fit, even Cleverley at the start of the season, but that's probably down to his poor form too.

But from 06 to 09 Carrick was usually one of the first on the teamsheet, for bigger games anyway.

Zen

Comparing them wasn't really my point.....both got a huge reputation based off a pretty small selection of games that were kind of unwarranted for their actual overall talent. You'd have some believing Schweinstiger was in Xavi, Iniesta and Fabregas' class....

The same could be said for Wesley Sniejder too, who I don't even feel is on Schweinstigers level on a consistent all round basis, but neither are anyway near your main 3 creative midfielders in the world.

Cheesy

Unless they monumentally collapse in their final stretch of league games, then it has been a very good season for them in my eyes. To dethrone Barcelona in the league is not easily done, even when you have spent hundreds of millions to assemble your squad.

As well as that, they have reached the semis of the Champions League which is very respectable for them.

We can laugh at them right now, however at the end of the day they will still have a league title by the end of the season and know that they're probably only going to get better and become more likely to win the Champions League next season.

Cina

Well for one, Schweinstiger is not a creative midfielder, so I don't know why you're putting him in that bracket. Obviously it's pointless comparing him to the Barca midfielders. I'd say he's in the bracket right behind them. Schweinstiger has played a hell of a lot more excellent games than Bale though, that's for sure. If you were to compare Schweinstiger to a Spurs player, it'd be Modric, not Bale.

I've never really bought into Sneijder so he's irrelevant.

Zen

Again, you are missing the point completely....I'm talking about how people buy into hyperbole so easily, not really comparing any of these players.

Bale, Schweinstiger and Sneijder have all suffered from having their reputations blown up to extreme levels based off such little selection of performances and one or true brilliant games in a big game, all to the level of the "just behind Messi/Ronaldo"(where Xavi, Iniesta and Fabregas are justifiably placed due to their consistency and incredibly talent) type reputation despite none of them having really proven to be at that level on a consistent basis.

All are very good players, but theres a reason why none of them are moving or have done....because no one is willing to pay the mythical prices for them which their clubs now believe they can get probably....especially with Carroll/Torres shit.

manutddjw

I think we should give Mourinho credit for steadying the ship at Madrid and delevoping some continuity with Real Madrid.

Every year, Real Madrid buys several top players in the transfer market and more often than not changes its manager. When you do that, there is no chemistry in the team and every year players have to adjust to playing with different players and sometimes a new managers tactics, which takes time and points get dropped.

What Mourinho has done is assembled a decent sized squad and has been fortunate that he can use essentially the same starting XI with very little change. Barcelona, on the other hand, have chopped and changed their team trying to accomodate everyone on a weekly basis and have paid for it. The squad Real Madrid have is because of Mourinho. He said he wanted a squad this size and he's managed it brilliantly. For instance, he's gotten a good return from both Benzema and Higuain. While alot of clubs stockpile strikers, he's insisted on only having 2 and as a result he's got two 20+ goal a season strikers instead of 5 that score the same amount.

Cheesy

I don't think Bale really deserves to be categorised on the same level as Schweinsteiger and Sneijder if I'm being honest. Even if their performance have been blown up to extreme levels, they have been able to at least consistently produce performances on a world class level for a period of time.

Bale, on the other hand, hasn't been able to do that. His world class performances generally have been one-offs, while any level of consistency has been when he's been playing well; not world class.

Cina

Oh please, Schweinstiger isn't moving because he's at the best club in his home country. It'd be like Rooney leaving us. I never said 'just behind', he's in the next bracket of top midfielders, that doesn't imply that I think he's nearly as good as them.

You brought up Bale, I pointed out the fact that comparing them, in this hyperbole situation you're on about, is ridiculous. Schweinstiger has done far more to prove being called a top player than Bale has. I'm not comparing the players at all. You're comparing their status as being great players based on these performances etc, I'm arguing against it. At no point have I said who is better or worse, just that Schweinstiger has done a lot in his career in contrast to Bale in order to earn his place at being labelled one of the worlds best in his position.

Zen

You seem to think I'm talking about you in general.....no, I'm not actually talking about you at all, I'm talking about in general....Schweinstiger got hype and price valuations that weren't warranted(using logic, not Carroll maths), same deal for Bale, same deal for Sneijder, same deal for many others....I am NOT comparing them as players, nor am I suggesting you are...which I thought I made clear, but guess not.

If I must compare, Schweinstiger is the best of the lot on a consistent performer basis....but he's still not as good as his brilliant world cup(where the hype truly started from) for his club. In fact, I think Kroos has looked better fairly often when they've been paired together and I've seen them.

Cina

I didn't ask you to compare them at all. You just went off on a tangent comparing Schweinstiger's hype to Bale's. Schweinstiger's hype is far, far more justified. Maybe not to the levels it was at, though injuries have played a part in that, but he has shown many a time that he's a superb player.

Zen

Whether there hype is justified or not is irrelevant....all 3 have been immensely overrated because of it.

I also know you didn't ask to compare, I just used examples, and could use many others....it's just ten fold worse in the twitter/facebook era. But these 3 are some of the big ones.

Jimy_Hills_Chin

Nani has started more in a single season than Carrick ever has and Fletcher can match Carrick's highest ever total, I really can't be arsed checking any more.

Actually Pogue they are a particular list but only in that they are all, by general perception, in that 'World Class' bracket. You would have to admit that it fits my argument almost perfectly that the 'World Class' players start more games than anyone else regardless of position. Hell, if you squinted your eyes hard enough then you might even start to think that SAF picks his best players the most often!

I like Carrick though. I think he is a very good player and he seems very low maintenance. Well he gets into trouble with SAF by playing badly but he keeps his head down and he has a very good injury record. He is solid in those respects. I just get slightly bemused by the Michael Carrick as unabated football genius perception that seems to prevail in the CAF. Good player he is but in my opinion there are more than a few better midfielders in World football.

He has been an important player for us in recent years but this is the first year that I would apply the word 'key' to him. He seems to lack the ability to boss a game for me and there is no place where it is more important to boss a game than in midfield. It is no coincidence that he has played much better since Scholes has come back and errr started bossing the midfield.

Suedesi

Correct

adexkola

A lot of people have overrated the two Spanish teams. They're excellent, but they aren't miles ahead of the other elite teams in Europe, and that showed this week.

Suedesi

Such arrogance coming from Madrid camp, I'm glad they are out.

What the fuck have Madrid achieved in the last five years in Europe, to deserve such high acclaim? Bayern have made the final twice in the last three years and have a much better midfield and cohesive attack than Madrid.

Suedesi

Barcelona deserve to be called the standout team of this generation. Us, Munich and Madrid are about a level below IMO

adexkola

They are the standout team, agreed. Just saying the gap has been exaggerated by some.

Theon

I agree with the bolded part, but Madrid IMO have the better players. Bayern look very cohesive in attack because they were playing confident, attacking football, which is a credit to the way in which they were set up.

Madrid were almost the opposite, they were so rushed in possession that they didn't look anywhere near as good as Bayern, despite having a better team. Mourinho just reverts to counter attacking football whenever he's against a good side and it's shit to watch.

Suedesi

Madrid were gifted a penalty and an offside goal

NoLogo

Well it could be argued that the gap was pretty obvious in both CL finals we lost against them.

That being said we all should know better and keep in mind that no team is invincible and immune to defeat especially not in a cup competition where one or two games can decide over success or defeat.

Arruda

I hate Madrid, I'm not from the Madrid camp. I just think they're better than Bayern at this moment. Not much more.

Varun_Utd

They didnt really show it in either of the legs though.

adexkola

Happens in this competition.

Basel?

Varun_Utd

Dont think Madrid were missing the number of players we did or playing with young players in quite a few important positions leading to individual errors.

barros

The first goal from Bayern in Germany came from a handball

askabob

lol

Can you name 10 midfielders who have been better than MC16 this season?

Jimy_Hills_Chin

Looks like we have a fan boy on our hands.

It is very subjective of course and I was passing my opinion.

That said, in the interest of supporting my own subjective opinion that I have already backed up with anecdotal and factual evidence, I will use the whoscored.com rankings. I will offer these rankings as they are based on tallying up of statistical evidence rather than biased opinion. They take data from all the major European Leagues that I can obviously not watch and in the interests of your question/challenge we are able to isolate this season alone. To note I will only rank players from the EPL, Serie A, La Liga and the Bundesliga.

Enjoy (ranked in order on website)

1. Andrea Pirlo
2. Xavi
3. Santiago Cazorla
4. Francesc Fábregas
5. Luka Modric
6. David Silva
7. Toni Kroos
8. Mikel Arteta
9. Bastian Schweinsteiger
10. Xabi Alonso
11. Andrés Iniesta
12. Arturo Vidal
13. Bruno
14. Shinji Kagawa
15. Claudio Marchisio
16. Yaya Touré
17. Michael Carrick

Arruda

I agree, if these two were the only Madrid and Munich games I watched this season my opinion would be different.

Agent Red

Madrid have been very good this season, Barca have definitely declined over the past 12 months from their previous heights, but credit to Madrid for the progress they've made as well. Individual players like Benzema have really come on, and Ronaldo has been as prolific as ever.

I don't think that Wednesday was too reflective of their position in the world standings. They'd had a very tiring week with Bayern away, El Clasico away and then another Bayern tie. It's no surprise really that they weren't firing on all cylinders after that, and I think Mourinho could have been more conscious of that tactically, bringing on a rested Higuain a bit earlier etc.

Despite Bayern's victory, for me I think the no.1 and no.2 spots are still between the Spanish two. Bayern aren't far off at all, but they've been less consistent in their domestic league than Madrid this year. If they can remedy that, then they've got a great chance of breaking into the top 2, but if Madrid win La Liga I think it's hard to argue that they're not top 2 material.

Amar__

bold: Do you think same about city too?

WR

MC16.

Agent Red

Yes, of course. They've had the money thing for a few years now, but the fact that they've gone from 4th/5th to league challengers shows that they've developed this season.

I assume the point you're making is that Madrid and City have both been big spenders, and that taints their victories. And to some extent I agree, but then Barca haven't shied away from big signings or high wages either. Plus it takes more than just spending to create a winning team, it helps a huge amount, but it's also about gelling and having the right leadership.

Varun_Utd

I do think Madrid are better than Bayern but there's not much in it. The classico before the 2nd leg didnt help madrid at all but they were very lacklusture after going 2 up in the 2nd leg. fatigue perhaps..

Cheesy

As he said, he does, however the difference between Man City and Real Madrid is that one of them is likely to win their league this season, while the other still looks like they may not win it. That alone would show a lot more progress from the side that win their league.

WR

Not really. Money = success. Not an ounce of credit should be given to City. It could have been Everton, Fulham, Stoke who we could be facing for the title. City were just lucky the billionaires chose them.

Agent Red

Equally, much as I think we deserve to win the league and have the makings of a great side, I don't think many would argue that our side this year have been one of our best ever. If City were to win it would be a big success from their point of view, but wouldn't go down as them having beaten one of the best sides ever.

In comparison, the current Barca team is viewed as being one of the best XI's ever to have existed. I know that their decline this year has in part been their own doing, lack of squad depth, lack of desire, whatever it is. Still, they remain an exceptional team and for Madrid to beat them, and by a few points, that's a big success on their part.

pocco

Who is Bruno?

Agent Red

So you don't think City this year have come on from where they were 12 months ago? I'm not saying it's fully deserved as obviously they've acquired people since then, but I think it's hardy to deny they're not better this year than they were last year?

They splashed cash every window for a few years before becoming a threat. Part of that is down to management. Making good signings, getting the team to play with more togetherness etc.

It's much less worthy than doing it the way us or Arsenal have in recent years, but I do think in the past 12 months they've improved a fair bit, beyond just having signed more players.

Skorenzy

Bruno Soriano, defensive midfielder, Villarreal. A very solid player who goes somewhat unnoticed, but has been the standout performer for a very poor Villarreal side this season. United were rumoured to have been interested a couple of months ago.