Ronaldo Watch

fishfingers15

Now that we are talking semantics (bullshit), a shot can lead to rebounds and create goal scoring opportunities.

Cal?

Ultimately, the aim of the game is to score, if shooting leads to the same chance of scoring as dribbling - they are equally effective.

Fact: Ronaldo is the top scorer of La Liga and looking very likely to break the all time La Liga scoring record.

FranklyVulgar

in theory yes. If you tend to score 1 in 5 shots then if you take 10 shots you have a good chance of scoring 2 goals.

If you have a 1 in 8 then maybe if you take 16 shots you'll have a good chance of scoring a couple.

It's actually very simple mathmatics.

I understand that it doesnt work exactly like that, a lot of it is to do with intelligence. Knowing when to shoot and when not to. That's why i do put some value on a good ratio.

Also when you look at the vast vast majority of goals scored by Ronaldo this season, they've been simple and on the back of great creation from his team mates. If you just look at his goals it makes you wonder what the hell he was doing for his other 210 shots that missed. If you have guys laying them on a plate why waste time missing so much?

kouroux

Like I said, it's pointless to say stuff like "most likely".It's too simple minded to look at it that way.

FranklyVulgar

you ignore everything that goes before shooting. You need to be in a position to shoot, otherwise it's entirely pointless to do so. Dribbling can get your team into the position to shoot, passing can get your team into the position to shoot. SHooting? well you have to have someone giving you the ball or you have to work the ball ie dribble to find the space yourself.

ROnaldo will break many records, he has already. He'll continue to do so, the guys a machine.

Cal?

Why don't you start your own football club? Train a whole load of players who shoot and shoot (afterall, "If any attacking forward players shoots as much as Ronaldo they will most likely have an impressive goal scoring record.")

You can then sell them on for 80m each.

Boss

Naldo also has the ability to muster space for a shot.

FranklyVulgar

nothing is cut and dry in football. It's a theory with a pretty reasonable explination. What would be the point in saying "they definitely would" or "wouldn't"?

My point is very basic yet treated like it goes against common sense. If you shoot about 100 shots more than anyone else then you probably have a good chance of scoring more goals than anyone else.

Cal?

Oh, now suddenly you realise that you need to be in a position to shoot? I thought you just needed to shoot lots to have an impressive scoring record.

kouroux

well thought

FranklyVulgar

Eh, you've really missed the point.

kouroux

[QUOTE=FranklyVulgar;9756901]nothing is cut and dry in football. It's a theory with a pretty reasonable explination. What would be the point in saying "they definitely would" or "wouldn't"?

My point is very basic yet treated like it goes against common sense. If you shoot about 100 shots more than anyone else then you probably have a good chance of scoring more goals than anyone else.[/QUOTE]

If you leave it just like that, I think your point is fine.It's just the way you seem to imply that Ronaldo just scores many goals because he shoots a lot is suspect.

FranklyVulgar

that's where the intelligence comes into it. If you are one of the best in the world then you have intelligence in your movement which no doubt Ronaldo has. But there are times where you can shoot or you can do something else like pass the ball, dribble, keep posession, create for someone in a better position etc.

What would you do? you are in a position to shoot, you would always shoot? Even if the position isnt particuarly good? even if you have a team mate in a better position?

FranklyVulgar

No, because he's in a great team built entirely around his attributes. If you have Ronaldo then maybe you do build the team around him, after all he'll score you a lot of goals.

Personally i dont like the idea of a team built entirely around one player unless it is going to make the team play better. A play maker is who the team should be built around as then you can control the game.

Madrid are built to counter fast not to control so much. It's mourinhos way, even at chelsea.

But Ronaldo is what he is, you cant ignore him. He isnt the kind of guy to just slot in and do a job. He isnt a team player and that's his biggest flaw, he comes before the team, the team is there for him, he isnt there for the team. The team is built to allow him the freedoms.

it was the same at United, no surprise to me that Rooneys best season came in the absence of Ronaldo.

Rado_N

I wish Hernandez had taken more shots, he could have scored 40

kouroux

Just like any team would build the team around its best player.
Rooney's best came in the absence of Ronaldo not because Ronaldo wasn't there but because the team was built around him just like it was when Ronaldo was at United and just like it is for Messi at Barcelona.

Cal?

Ronaldo's scoring record suggests he does the right thing more often than anyone in La Liga.

mariachi-19

Because any team in the world is different?? You play to your best players strengths. United are geared towards Rooney, Barcelona are geared towards Messi, Inter were geared around Sneijder last season, City around Tevez, Munich around Robben the list goes on and fucking on. You don't think the likes of Silva, Villa, Ibrah 'last season' haven't made sacrifices? There is no room in one side for two big ego's. Its what I like to call the Galactico effect. Too many big name players playing for themselves in one side causes disharmony and imbalance. So before you start going on with your pretentious bullshit, how about you open your eyes to the reality of football.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

FranklyVulgar

Not the same for me, City have a pretty standard set up, Tevez is just better than what they have as a striker.

Inter werent geared around anyone, they were a team.

Munich around Robben? really?

Yes players will make sarcrifices but Ronaldo is not one of them. the team is sacrificed for Ronaldo. He is that good though but sometimes i feel it can be detremental as football is a team game.

mariachi-19

You're an idiot.

Boss

We aren't geared towards Rooney, he's just our best player.

Barca will continue to play the same style of football without Messi, he's just their best football.

Inter isn't geared around Sneijder either, how?

mariachi-19

Watch towards the end of last season. Inter relied on sneijder to be the focal point of their attack. Holland was the same at the world cup.

And United is geared around Rooney. Thats why he's is sit flat smack bang in the middle of our attacking formation. We have two wingers and a striker that play off him and two midfielders that try to pass it to him most of the time. He has a free role as such and thats because he's at his most dangerous when he can express himself, do what he wants.

Brwned

I'm sorry, we were built around Rooney last season when he was played right up top, now we're built around Rooney when he's playing in behind the striker? That's ridiculous, he's playing where it suits the team most.

FranklyVulgar

the fact United would shunt Rooney out wide in order to accomodate Ronaldo tells you all you need to know in my opinion.

Rooney was sacrificed in order to accomodate Ronaldo. Even when in my opinion Rooney is a better player through the middle than Ronaldo as he gives more to the team. (i sound a bit like Ancellotti here)

mariachi-19

Which happens to be his best position, which happens to be where the focus of most of our attack comes from. He's the engine of the team. He makes everybody around him click.

FranklyVulgar

why for challenging your wild post about how Inter are built around Sneijder or Bayern around Robben?

Sneijder plays the same role he plays in any team he plays for, middle of the park. You hardly have to bump other players around to accomodate him.

Robben, plays on either side of a front 3, always has and probably always will. He's also injured all the time and has never had a team built around him.

If you want to call people idiots it's better to actually know the first thing about a point you're apparently trying to make. Unless you were trying to make yourself look stupid and clueless? you succeeded there.

Brwned

Which one? The one where he scored 34 goals or the one this season? Some people are undecided - I think both Sir Alex and Rooney and given mixed answers on where his 'best position' is, actually. Him being our best player and him being played in his best position doesn't equal to the team being built around him regardless. It just means that we've got the players to play him in his best position, and he's our best player. A team doesn't have to be built around a player (and Rooney's such a team player he doesn't require it).

mariachi-19

Sure I did

So who did Bayern go for most of their attacking play last year? Who was their most dangerous player that pretty much got them to the CL final on their own? You'd also take care to notice that Bayern have had a down turn in form but who was missing for a good portion of this season but when he was back had very good stats? here's a clue.... All signs point to Robben.

In the end we're getting off topic. You play to your strongest player. Its the case with the vast majority of teams. You bang on about how Tevez is their best striker, but there is a reason for that. He offers something others don't. In the same way that Ronaldo offers something others don't, Rooney the same, Messi the same, Sneijder the same, Drogba in last season form the same, Gerrard in his pomp the same, Zidane, Ronaldo, Maradonna, Pele, Platini I can keep reeling them off... All of these players have teams built around them or play the most prominent role in the attack.

Ronaldo is the focal point of Madrids attack because he is simply their best player. There is not much difference between the position he plays and a striker except that he can move around anywhere on the top side of the park. In affect a free role. He's been allowed that because again, he is their best player. He's most effective in that role and its the reason why he had it at United, and any other team he's played for since 07.

FranklyVulgar

Drogba plays the same position always, Gerrard needs it although Liverpool at their best would often see him wide right, sacrificed for the team. Ronaldo played one position, a striker.

Ronaldo dominates his team like no other player i can think of. The team is built around him and him alone. The other sides you speak of don't play to one players strenghs, just the players in question have out performed others in the role they occupy. There's a difference.

If you are willing to play two strikers wildly out of position to accomodate Ronaldo it isnt always to the complete benifit of the team in my opinion but Ronaldo lacks flexibility. If not given the freedom he wont have the same impact. He needs others around him to do the work of the team in order for him to flurish in the final 3rd. He's the most evident of all teams, Pelegreni tried to work it to fit everyone in but couldnt do it and reverted to playing purely to suit Ronaldo. It shows a certain lack of flexibility on his part.

Like Rooney and Tevez played on the wings to let Ronaldo do his thing through the middle. Now Rooney can play off a striker in the role he was (imo) made for and it is to a great benefit to the team. Like Tevez at City, now in his natural role he is a much greater threat and improved player.

Ronaldos own need to be the man was detrimental to two top class players at United and for me he's the reason Madrid play with Alonso and Khadira/Diarra. they need that buffer to let him be free. He is so direct that a team cannot really change their approach with him.

It works most of the tiime because he is that good but i still see some negatives in this aspect.

amolbhatia100

FV, I've had a laugh at you and I'll admit you put yourself in those situations with consummate ease. But a word of advice - tread with caution. I'd say go easy on the biases but fair enough you have them and it's hard to fight that.

But going back to that ridiculous claim you made, it's more the extent to which you stretched what would have been a fair point to obscene limits.

Ronaldo is selfish. It is a drawback even though the positives of his game outweigh this negative. But you took a simple thought like that and took it to such a great extent that it makes your opinion almost look farcical.

'If any attacking forward players shoots as much as Ronaldo they will most likely have an impressive goal scoring record.'

Surely you can see why people get the impression about you that they do get? It's first of all a clear put down, the wording and subsequent tone of the sentence make sure of that. Secondly, the sentence irrespective of context correlates Ronaldo's goalscoring record directly to the number of shots he takes and nothing else, which is rather ridiculous.

Basically I've just spent 5 minutes my life trying to get through to you. I agree with the basic sentiment that Ronaldo is a selfish player and that it is a negative, but I suggest you lean on the side of caution in these discussion. It just gives others (including me) lots of ammunition and leads to terribly inaccurate statements that you then have to spend hours justifying.

Take a step back and don't make such dramatic posts. Hope this post helps you in some way.

I think I've got too much time on my hands

kouroux

@FV: Let me correct myself.A manager will either build a team around his best player or will put his best in the best possible situation(s) for him to express his best football

FranklyVulgar

then it shows a lack of flexibility on the players part if his position and demand on the pitch cannot accomodate others and they have to purely accomodate him.

Pogue Mahone

The fact the team was built around Ronaldo was a reflection of how good a player he was, rather than any lack of flexibility on his part. He could easily have played as a conventional winger if required.

It's extremely unusual for Fergie to set up his team to get the best out of one player. Which goes to show what a special talent Ronaldo is/was.

amolbhatia100

Very true. Fergie doesn't let players dictate anything. He does what's best for the team. Ronaldo's goal-scoring talents were reaching phenomenal heights and it made perfect sense for us to make use of it. Had it suited us for him to be more like what he was in seasons before, then Fergie would have got him to play that way. People overestimate the power of the player and underestimate that of the manager.

FranklyVulgar

I appreciate the sentiment i really do but the reality of it is i don't care what people think of my comments. I've had a slow day at work and i quite like the debate. In my opinion i've raised a few realistic points regarding Ronaldo and it's generated a bit of debate.

I mean the fact he shoots more than anyone else and by quite a margin is something that draws my attention. The fact teams are built to suit every element of his game is also something that draws my attention. They are positives and negatives in my opinion.

Maybe Ronaldo is just that damn good that any team he walks into imediately adapts themselves to get the best out of him as the best out of Ronaldo is that much better than anything else. He is that good in a lot of cases but it does have some negatives, the plan b element and the deterioration of other top players who if played in harmony could be a better some of parts than just a machine with massive cog.

Anyway, if i say something people don't agree with they can debate it or they can bite. If they take any exagerated point i make and blow it up rather than make a point then that's their perogative.

I wasn't purely comparing his goals to shots ratio, i raised a point about goal importance and the worth of these goals. If a palyer scored 50 goals in a season and his team win nothing the something isnt right. The team hasnt won when it's been crunch time, the player has scored a lot of goals but not when it's mattered the most.

FranklyVulgar

Fergie made a lot of exceptions where Ronaldo was concerned. No doubt he's a special talent, easily the 2nd best player in the world but with regards to any other top player i can't imagine them imediately having everything built around them.

I doubt it about him playing as a conventional winger. Especially against top opposition like in the final of the CL. He wouldnt track enough and would leave his full back exposed. Fergie knows that Rooney would do any job asked. Ronaldo would too but he woudlnt fullfil the obligations to the same degree. It's taking a free roaming player who starts from a wide position and swapping him with a free roaming player who starts from a central position.

Is it based on him wanting to get the best out of one or because he trusts the other to do a better job?

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

The United team was built around Ronaldo simply because he was the best player we had and our biggest goal threat. That is why Rooney ended up out wide. I Ronaldp's WPOTY wining season he played wide all year with Tevez and Rooney down the middle. So accusations of in flexibility can't be levelled at him.

Pogue Mahone

The former. Which in turn, gets the best out of the team.

Cal?

What a freekick...

Matches all time La Liga scoring record with 38th goal in league season.