Suarez

marjen

My argument is he needs to be better overall in the final third.

towcester_red

I think he is creative and dangerous in the final third. Just misses too many chances.

marjen

Creative?

Compare his number of assists to the number of times he loses the ball in the final third, or the number of missed passes.

If he is creative, he's not making it count.

And as far as I'm concerned, he is not a very creative passer or an intelligent attacker at all. He's a good dribbler, good at creating space for himself, but then again, where's the end product to that?

Ask Nani, if you can't finish it off or provide a telling pass, you will rightly get criticized for hogging the ball.

scholesy legend

We should boo him. He will be far too 'spurred on' that he'll lose his head, which he is very capable of.

towcester_red

Im sorry I dont like Suarez but he is dangerous when he gets on the ball in the final third. He doesnt necessarily have to be the one who gets the assists but the threat he gives can create space for others.

marjen

It's not about liking him.

You don't really argue anything, you just claim he is "dangerous". That's not saying anything at all.

It's like this everytime I try and tell a Liverpool-supporter that you know, he isn't this God like striker who's clearly superior to the rest of the Premiership, he's scored 5 bloody goals this season.

"But he creates so many chances and sets up his teammates?"
"No, he's got 1 to 3 assists, depending on what measure you use."
"But he creates so much space for others!"
"So do Dirk Kuyt and Craig Bellamy, by running around."
"But he is creative and dangerous, and is good at holding up the ball."
"Why does he lose the ball so much then? And why does he pass the ball away so often? He isn't excactly a creative passer."

What I am trying to argue is, he loses the ball a lot, his passing is erratic, his finishing obviously isn't good enough.. So what are left to make people claim he is a "top player", like B19? Virtually the only aspect of his game that resembles that of a top player is his first touch and his dribbling, and even when dribbling he do lose the ball an awful lot, and rarely delivers a telling pass or shot even when he succeeds.

Brwned

I can definitely see the logic I'm just of a different view is all, in a years' time he might be playing exactly the same way but I might be of a different view because the volume of missed chances - passes and shots - are too hard to ignore but at the moment I think he's a level above the likes of Dembele and Dempsey and on the same level as VDV, Sessegnon, Dzeko and co.

Watched him in most of the Copa America this summer and he didn't look all that different really, still missed easy chances and wasted good passing opportunities but he was still a constant danger and got 4 goals in 6 games against relatively strong defences and that won him the Golden Ball. He's definitely got it in him.

Raoul

Putting aside his controversies, I've always thought he was a superb player. He's got that extra swagger and tenacity that separates him from his contemporaries.

Varun_Utd

For me, he is a very talented footballer. When any team plays pool, he'd be the one to look out for imo, more so than gerrard now for me. He is pretty much instrumental to what they do as a team. He's good with the ball at his feet, can beat players, has good pace, is strong so he can hold the ball and get others into the game and simply put, has the ability to produce those moments that win matches singlehandedly.

It isnt about running around and putting in a 100% at all, kuyt or bellamy do that as well if not better as you pointed out. Stats for me can be misleading. Yes, as i said, he need to improve on his end product. be it finishing chances or the final pass, but it'l come. i'd be astounded if he doesnt improve his numbers as seasons go by. Also, if pool go out and and actually sign a finisher in the summer, i see him flourishing even more.

He needs to improve his productivity though, no question.

marjen

He needs to stop giving the ball away needlessley too.

Varun_Utd

Yep, definitely. Though with his willingness to run at players and try and dribble past them, he'l always lose the ball more than the ones who play the percentages.

marjen

It's about decisions. Nani will always lose the ball more often than others, so will Giggs, but they make the right decision often enough about when to dribble/try a difficult pass, so their output is consistantly high.

Varun_Utd

Never said otherwise. "often enough" is key in your post, suarez needs to improve on that but will never really be 100% immune to it because of the way he plays.

marjen

If he was a youngster, we'd probably say "there's talent in him, but he needs to learn the game at the top flight and start to make it count. Lacks composure and runds down blind alleys".

For Welbeck's good link up play and goalscoring exploits, he's had that criticism levelled at him - not productive enough. Well he sure as hell has been more productive than Suarez, and with a more effective allround game to boot, on the evidence of this season.

Varun_Utd

Are you saying welbeck's a better player than suarez already?

marjen

I'm saying he's having a better season. Would you disagree?

Varun_Utd

Nope. He surely has. If it was just about this season though, then i'd have to put Ba ahead of him too. But then, i wasnt really focussing on this season only with any of my comments in the thread.

marjen

Well, his whole time at Liverpool basically. It's difficult for me to base my opinion on anything else as I never watch Ajax, and only very rarely watch Uruguay. His record in international football is impressive though, obviously.

I'm sure he would be more prolific with better players in midfield and on the wings, that goes without saying. Perhaps getting him into more dangerous positions more frequently, while letting others handle the creation of chances and build-up, is the reason behind his international goalscoring exploits? That would make his mistakes and losses of possession more justifiable as well.

Based on his time in England though - good player. Not top player or top tier player, and arguably not in the class of the players I listed as second tier either.

And as productivity goes, he's.. well he's shite, isn't he?

golden_blunder

when your contemporaries are the likes of Kuyt and Carroll, I'd have a swagger too!


*no doubt Kuyt will bloody score against United again. He never scores all season and then saves them up for United. Game raising cnut

Varun_Utd

That is exactly what it is imo. Just look at the ones he plays with when gerrard wasnt there, Downing Kuyt Carroll Adam and henderson as the ones with him to create and score goals till now for the majority of his time at the club. Its so surprise that he has too much to do on his own.

What would you do when you beat a man and look up to see andy fucking carroll as the only one you can pass to? He tries to do more himself and more often than not, fails. It isnt the only reason, no doubt, i aint saying that, but it is a big factor. The attacking players at pool are among the worst i've ever seen for a club with top 4 ambitions let alone winning the league.

With better players around, he'l get better. Did cleverley look anywhere close to being as good as he does now at wigan? No. did welbeck? No. It helps to have better players around as one cannot do everything on his own.

What they need is another striker to partner him, a goalscorer and they need gerrard to stay fit and play with him thus lessening the pressure on him to do so much himself.

His productivity is very poor as i've already admitted but with better acquisitions in the summer than the likes of downing carroll and henderson, which i hope they dont but i think they will, i expect his numbers to go up considerably.

I hate the cunt but there's no doubt he's a very good player.

towcester_red

Marjen, you definitely have anti-liverpool glasses when it comes to Suarez. Like him or hate him he is an excellent footballer.

marjen

I don't think I've said anything outrageous. I've backed up my argument, while the other side of the argument has basically been "but he is a top player, because", aside from Brwned who put forward his international record.

And I don't have an issue with acknowledging the quality of a Liverpool player.

Torres was a world class striker in his pomp.

Gerrard, when deployed correctly, is a world class player(could have been a world class midfielder if managed correctly but..)

Reina at his best is a very, very good keeper. Probably the best in the league these last three seasons.

Enrique is the best left back in the league, by a distance.

Lucas is becoming a very useful destroyer, if a bit limited.

Charlie Adam is fat, shite, and overrated.

Oh sorry, that last one didn't fit in very well.

towcester_red

fair point on Adams.

Sometimes stats dont back up how important a player can be, like Modric has hardly any assists but he is essential to how Spurs play, possibly thier best player.

madhed

adexkola

So... Suarez is the elephant?

SharkyMcShark

In Uruguay that is a term of endearment

finneh

I don't know how true this is but you honestly sound like someone who has read all his stats, but not actually watched him play.

He (very) often picks up the ball not far from the half way line with his back to goal and distributes it fantastically. Whenever I've seen him he has played exceptionally effective passes to the likes of Downing & Kuyt on the wings, who have then created generally nothing. In that respect he is similar to Modric, who often picks up the ball (in a much deeper position) and plays in Lennon/VDV/Bale. The difference is that VDV/Lennon/Bale are a far superior trio near Modric than what Liverpool have had under Suarez - Kuyt, Downing and Adam/Carroll.

Bizarrely enough it's his qualities that most would associate with a midfield player that set him apart from (in my opinion) "tier 3" players. I'd say he's comfortably the best player outside of us, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, City.



He also has a great first touch and often around the penalty area is heavily involved in the play.

M'n'M

Hehe, Wellbeck is better than Suarez. That was worth popping back in for.

Cheesy

I think the problem for Suarez, and I have said this a couple of times, is that he isn't being deployed in the correct role at all.

He can play as a striker, but for me, it takes away his chance to make an overall impact on the game. It's a bit like Rooney in a sense when we play him up top as a lone striker: the difference being that Rooney is a better finisher than Suarez.

For me, Suarez would play a lot better if Liverpool gave him the second striker role in behind a main striker. He's a skilful player with a lot of technique, who can influence a game. I can definitely see it working. The only problem is, who do you put up front? Carroll clearly isn't the answer, although Bellamy could be based on his recent form.

M'n'M

I think this has always been the plan. Carroll up front with Suarez, Gerrard and Bellamy in behind. Maybe if they could get a run of games together it would help.

Vanrouge

Except he didn't say that.

Badunk

@ your location

decorativeed

Well, I wouldn't argue that (yet), but lets have a look at their records in the league for the past couple of seasons (since 2010/11):

Suarez: 2579 minutes played, 9 goals scored (287 minutes/goal), 8 assists, 5 yellow cards, one 8 match suspension, cost £23m, 25 years old. Cnut.

Welbeck: 2904 minutes played, 12 goals scored (242 minutes/goal), 4 assists, 4 yellow cards, no suspension, cost £0, 21 years old. Not a cnut.

I know which one I'd rather have playing for my club.

Kraftwerker

Isn't it funny how the LFC fans on here have to a man been too spineless to give their views on the racism case, but will pop in to laugh at something that wasn't even said.

Cowards.

M'n'M

I've spent months doing it and it with some of my best friends and it always turns into an argument which puts me in bad form for the day so the last place I would do it is in here. Life's too short.

Racism is, was and will always be disgusting and it should not be condoned in any shape or form. Defending someone who you feel has been falsely accused of such abhorrent behaviour and tried by a kangaroo court with a 99% conviction rate, is not condoning racism.

I bet the Birmingham Six, David Bentley, Winston Stillcott, Colin Stagg and Barry George to name a few, wish that everybody just took as face value the decision made by the Court of Law in their cases. And those were decisions made in a Court of Law, through the legal system, found guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. Not "the balance of probabilities" based on he said/he said testimony by 3 FA blazers.

Pogue Mahone

Just as well nobody accused Suarez of racism. He had to sit out a few games of football for using words that could be perceived as racist while arguing with another player. Something the player himself and several members of LFC's staff admitted to.

Well done for comparing it with people spending their whole life in jail after wrongly being convicted of murder though. That's an admirable sense of perspective.

Wonder Pigeon

Here comes the story of the Hurricane...

M'n'M

If only that were true Pogue. You know as well as I do that he has been branded a racist whatever the FA report clearly stated.

As for your second bit, get off your high horse. You know exactly what point I was making, albeit using extreme examples. And that is exactly why any Liverpool fan would be too "cowardly" to even try and debate this topic in here as every word would get twisted by a different poster. There's just not enough hours in the day.

Right, back to the genny.

Kraftwerker

What exactly makes you think he was falsely accused?

Strange that someone falsely accused admits to Comolli and Kuyt after the event that he said 'because you're a black', in separate conversations in Spanish and Dutch.

Of course, they all changed their testimony once they'd spoken to a lawyer, to a version of events where they had misheard him, because obviously the concilliatory defence wouldn't fly with that comment in their testimony, not to mention it corroborated the most damning part of Evra's evidence.

Strange that Evra, Comolli, and Kuyt all misheard Suarez say the exact same phrase in three different conversations, Evra and Comolli in Spanish, and Kuyt in Dutch. The odds must be spectacularly high. You're quite happy to swallow that? Doesn't it make you feel the slightest bit uncomfortable?

Or maybe you haven't read the report and are just basing your opinion off some LFC-led garbage?

If you have read the report, and we'll give you the benefit of the doubt you have, what did you not agree with exactly? Where were all these flaws that form the basis of that appeal or challenge that didn't happen.

Stop being so coy. Back your opinion up. It's even more spineless to say something that you can't back up.

cj4_elmo

Saurez is the best player in the league, bar none.

I'll reserve my true feelings after we play them this weekend