Tiers of Greatness

Castia

No offence but he's in a minority so it's going to get pulled up. You can argue he's not the best, iv seen great debates for Pele and Maradona to win that but not even in the top 5? he cant be serious.

I do agree with a lot of his list, he's done a good job but Messi is a 'once in a lifetime' player he's among the best that ever played the game for certain.

adexkola

None taken.

He is?

Ruud10

His list a great start, but given what Messi has accomplished over the last six seasons it would be harsh in the extreme to suggest he doesn't even deserve a place on one of the top XI players of all time. Seriously, what more could have realistically done up to this point? How many footballers have done in an entire career that Messi hasn't done already?

Cling Bak

I think you need to let the dust settle on something like this.

Not to the same degree (as Messi's achieved more), but in 2006 I think this list would've had Ronaldinho higher, for example.

I think Messi will cement his spot at the top eventually, but you don't just jump into a tier with Pele and Maradona, aged 25, all that easily.

Players currently playing are harder to judge, basically.

Liam147

You could also make an argument for potential decline in players. Shevchenko could be a tier above; he was scoring nearly 20 goals a season in Milan, and that included one with injuries where he scored five.

Then he went to Chelsea.

adexkola

Quoting Antohan...

thepolice123

Fat Ronaldo before his injury had GOAT ability, but that was only for a very short period. He should be nowhere near GOAT.

antohan

One thing that strikes me is how no one has picked on Platini amid all the Messi GOAT, not needing to win a World Cup, etc. discussions.

Every time that debate comes up Platini comes to mind. I'm not sure if everyone on here is too young, or his French/UEFA personna has distorted people's memories, so here we go:

Platini had an exceptional career. Superb for St. Etienne, he was already picking up the French Footballer of the Year regularly in the second half of the 70s while occasionally making the top three for the Ballon d'Or.

Then he moved to Juve and was the architect for arguably the most dominant side in their history. Up until Messi, he was the only one to have picked the Ballon d'Or three seasons in a row and in all three of them he was the top scorer in the most miserly league anyone has witnessed. A midfielder, not a false 9 with brilliant service, he delivered the service AND the goals. Stunning.

Sure, that Juve side had a mean errr... defence, but then -differently from Messi- he did it for yet another side, France, in one of the most outstanding individual tournament performances you will ever witness.

That certainly was the one thing that struck me with the original list on the op. I vividly remember Platini being for me what Messi is for his fanbois. I hadn't seen enough of Pelé but boy, he had to be awesome if he was better than Platini who, unfortunately, hadn't won a World Cup. You could argue yourself silly banging on about Schumacher's decapitation of Battiston having a say in that, '84 being the revenge, and '86 bound to be the grand finale.

He arrived in Mexico somewhat over the hill. Much like Zidane in '06, but carrying an injury, a bit like Maradona going into Italy '90. I vividly remember my family being shocked as I celebrated Brazil crashing out. How come I'd rather France went through?, they asked. "Platini deserves to win a World Cup, it would be a travesty if he didn't", was my answer.

About 24 hours later, Maradona showed the world he had other plans. He had always been "the next big thing", but Platini was firmly ahead and was The Big Thing until that quarter-final against England. Then came Belgium, the final...

And, while Maradona deserves all the plaudits he gets, the criminal outcome of it all was not how England crashed out to the Hand of God, but how suddenly Platini fell from his pedestal. Without a shadow of a doubt the best player so far in a decade plagued with outstanding No. 10s, within days he was all but forgotten and relegated to "also-run" status.

Thus is the fickle nature of football.

Rozay

Top tier for me would only be Pele, Maradona, Messi, Di Stefano and Ronaldo.

7dan

which Ronaldo??

antohan

The old fat one I guess

Rozay

The rounder one. The best striker ever in my view.

Liam147

Good post. I was actually looking up some of Platini's stats the other day, and always thought of him as a central midfielder, no more, no less, yet he had a goalscoring record most forwards would be proud of. Also his goalscoring record in Italy and his Ballon d'Or record as you mentioned. The only other account I had of him was my dad saying to me "He was a fantastic footballer." Other than that I've nothing to go on.

So you're saying he didn't bow out gracefully? Ronaldo and Ronaldinho both saw sharp declines, and for me won't ever be categorised amongst the best for that reason.

JP77

Bloody brilliant post mate.

Regarding the original, not sure what on gods name Best is doing down in the second tier. The greatest player of all time in my view and even if you don't agree with that, it's almost mental not to be including him in the first tier alongside the best of the best.

Snake Plissken

I'd definitely have Michael Laudrup in the God Tier. Genius of a footballer

Ruud10

I can go with that, provided beckenbauer is included. He was immense, for club and for country, and for quite some time.

It's hard to leave cruyff off the short list, but if you had to go with a top six (assuming we can never know how good Edwards could have been), this would be it.

Gio

Yes, it was bizarre the opening image placed Platini a rung below three other Europeans when, from what I've seen, only Beckenbauer has a strong claim to be ahead of him. It's classic revisionism that shows the importance of living through an era of players to truly appreciate their relative standing in the game at that time.

Isotope

Excellent post, Antohan. I thought Maradona and Cruyff are the only 'truly great' playmakers. Need to watch more this sexist Platini .

Rozay

From what I've seen of both players, I'd have Cruyff and Best pretty much equal, both in terms of style and ability. I think Best deserves to be mentioned on any level Cruyff does.

Isotope

Best is playmaker? I need to watch more of Best also then.

Rozay

Well I wouldn't have put Cruyff as a pure playmaker per se. I'd have him more as what you'd just call a 'forward' in today's game.

Raees

Raees

A forward doesn't do players like that justice... Guys like Cruyff and Platini would take the ball off defenders at times and completely run the show, admittedly it is much harder to do that these days due to the increased physical intensity of the game but a forward is a player whose main occupation it is to stay forward and seek to create/finish chances... from what I've seen of them, they dropped deep and dictated the tempo of games too.

antohan

Dig up the 1984 Euros, it's brilliant stuff. The best individual performance I had seen until Maradona stole the show in '86.

Seeing as the post was about Platini, I'm not sure I captured just how remarkable Maradona in '86 was. Living through it was like seeing football history being written before you. You knew Maradona was good, but the way he performed you just sat up and went "Fuck me, we are never going to see anything like this again, are we?". Even the semi between France and Germany felt like a game to decide who would be second. France were knackered after the Brazil game, it was a dull semi, then on comes the Maradona show vs. Belgium. It was spectacular, all that stuff I wrote about Platini's fall from grace, I only realised it after a couple of months, which is how long it took to get out of the Maradona ***fest trance and think more rationally about it all.

It's different, he didn't go off form or lose it completely. He was injured at the World Cup (not unprofessionally unfit like those two) and tailed off in his last year but not dramatically. Still great but no longer BPITW material, so he quit. It was a bit like Cantona seeing the writing on the wall, even if us fans thought he still had a couple of seasons in him.

TBH though, I don't remember his last year that much, that's how dramatic it was. One day Platini was a World Cup away from being GOAT next to Pelé and a few weeks later the whole notion had been erased from your mind without him or his performances having anything to do with it. Really bizarre.

MJJ

Brilliant reads anto. You should start a website about all these older players.

KingEric7

Cheers, interesting to know that. I'd always wondered but it's bit like one of those things you don't really dare say but can't help but think. It's just accepted in the UK that Bobby Moore was one of the greatest but I've never once heard anyone use his West Ham career in evidence. The closest it's come for me is hearing West Ham fans hammering (urghh...) on about they won the World Cup as if they're some sort of extension of England because of his career there.

Treble

Great post that.

Platini was a very special player.

amolbhatia100

Whenever I see best, I see so many similarities in technical ability between him and messi. He seems quicker though.

antohan

I've seen a lot of arguing over whether it is right for World Cup performances to be rated so highly. To some it's the biggest stage, others argue it's a few games every four years and lots of things (injuries, luck, etc.) are bound to have too much of an impact so the CL is a better indicator. The truth is somewhere in between.

The greatest quality the World Cup had was that the World's best players got together for a couple of months to play out of their comfort zone, sometimes in sides not drilled any better than a pub side. I know, I exaggerate, but it was an exceptional lab test.

Club sides are shaped over years, buying in or developing the missing pieces, drilling a certain playing style, permeating everything with a certain philosophy... Real talent shines brightly, but it is not that easy to tell how much comes from the player and how much comes from the team and the system they play in.

Continental competitions share some of the qualities of the World Cup but they are rarely melting pots allowing you to compare and contrast different styles and philosophies. Back when South Americans were largely stuck in South America and most European players actually played only in their domestic leagues for different club sides, the World Cup was an orgasmic experience that always promised to redefine conventional wisdom and tell the true greats from those who were very good in specific scenarios.

Of course, there have been national sides which relied heavily on a club spine and they generally did well. You can't underestimate the importance of Uruguay's forwards in 1950 playing from memory and being galvanised in the face of adversity, having faced it before successfully at Peñarol. The Magic Magyars were largely Honved. Holland and Ajax's total football... the list goes on all the way to Spain being Barca minus Messi but adding token Real quality.

These days the international calendar is busier, there are international breaks, a set number of days for players to travel and get drilled, penalties on clubs not releasing players, less stylistic differences as a result of the top players being moulded into "modern sides" in top leagues... The more successful nations even set a blueprint for their playing style and philosophy and stick to it from youth teams all the way to the senior side so that players are drilled and slot into it at ease. The quality on show in terms of drilled tactics is superior, but the result is cagey and somewhat boring. To some degree what made the World Cup a great testing ground is gone.

Gone are the days of true unadultered genius. When Pelé got called up to go to Sweden some of the Rio-based players had no idea who he was and had never seen him play. Both him and Garrincha were subs to begin with. Brazil was still scarred and suffering from stage freight and were very poor in the group stage, so halfway through the tournament the manager throws all his plans to the wind, goes "Fuck it" and plays those two.

A 17-year-old Pelé went on to score the only goal in the quarters, a hat-trick in the semi and a brace in the final. That is legendary stuff that will never get replicated but was an unquestionable true sign of greatness. In '62 Pelé gets injured halfway through, so Garrincha decides he should stop fucking about embarrassing defenders on the wing, stand up and be counted... Greatness. England in '66 was not West Ham, you would struggle to find a World Cup winning side with such an array of talent from different club sides, but their key men made it work even better than the sum of its parts. Greatness. Brazil in 70 just couldn't separate their No.10s so they played FIVE of them, the sort of thing Diego would try with Argentina, and they were so phenomenal that they made it glorious.

1986 to me was the last great World Cup, 1990 had drama, but 1986 was the last time you could sense and see one man on a mission blowing everyone and everything out of the water. Baggio was the last romantic attempt, but ultimately failed and that got erased from the realm of World Cup possibilities until Forlán in 2010, simply because Uruguay had no other credible way to get anywhere but with a performance like that one. But I seriously doubt a top country will ever have someone doing that again, it would be bad planning and the oppo would not be caught off guard.

So no, I don't expect nor demand Messi wins a World Cup ala Maradona. The truth is, that would be near impossible these days, there simply isn't an arena/competition out there where a player can single-handedly stick out like a sore thumb the way Maradona and Pelé did in the old World Cups regardless of what the rest of the team were doing.

I do expect him to at least have a Zidane '06 performance in a non-Barca setting, leave his mark in the knockout stages, rise above those around him, take games by the scruff of the neck, turn a game in the face of adversity and avoid headbutting anyone... It's not too much to ask but if he doesn't deliver it... Well, quite frankly, he wouldn't deserve to be up there. He has had loads of opportunities and will have many more ahead, there's no excuse. Yes, he is still young, but that didn't stop Pelé in '58, did it?

antohan

Indeed, some players have a game that is so all encompassing that forward is wrong, midfielder is too deep/withdrawn from attack and attacking midfielder seems like "not quite a forward or midfielder". I prefer Di Stéfano's definition of himself: "todocampista" (allfielder).

That clip actually doesn't portray him as a brilliant playmaker, everything that he does impressively marks him out as a winger or a potentially great false 9 ala Messi, not an all-time level playmaker.

gooDevil

Best was fouled on practically every occasion he had the ball, very cynical from Benfica, though it worked well enough until extra time! And most of the time Best just shrugs off the challenges anyway, it takes at least two or three guys just to manage to foul him off the ball.

Red Dreams

Best was the perfect attacking player. He could do everything.

A genius. My dad would say Edwards...but even for him Best was not far behind.

..and for all the fouls...and I mean being hacked..Best just got up and did what he did.

For me personally..there never would be anyone greater....

adexkola

Look at the space afforded to Best in that video. I can't imagine the havoc the likes of Messi and Ronaldo today would wreck on such defenses.

Nowadays teams play more organized, more tactically, less adventurous.

Care_de_Bobo

I know both of them get some rough treatment occasionally but I'm not sure they would have been able to take as much of a kicking as the likes of Best and Pele.

It takes a hell of a lot out of you and I bet both Best and Pele would happily have adapted to having less space to work in if it meant they weren't getting kicked every 5 minutes with hardly any punishment for the perpetrators.

amolbhatia100

Works both ways. Look how well drilled and organised barca are. Best would thrive in such a well oiled and tactically efficient team too. Also the pitches and tackled weren't fun either.

TheHorse'sMouth

Beautifully written post mate. Exactly my thoughts on Messi

TheHorse'sMouth

Put Beckenbauer in for Messi and add Cruijff in. Let's see Messi have a great tournament in Brasil outside his comfort zone before putting him in with the very best.

Liam147

Yeah another great post. I understand what you're saying about Messi; realistically he could play in four, possibly even five World Cups, and he should leave his mark on one, and I expect him to.

A reason why he hasn't was partly due to Dani Alves. When he played out wide, Alves would make those runs down the right (which he could; that space wouldn't be exploited), and it'd drag defenders out, giving Messi more room. For Argentina their full back was Nicolas Otamendi - a centre back.

Nowadays though he plays anywhere he wants to, can get the ball in any situation and do anything with it, which is why in Brazil I expect to see the 'truer' version of Messi.

amolbhatia100

If plays 5 he really should be shining in more than one.

Liam147

Sorry, I meant at least one.