Torres to Chelsea

Broyphs · 18th February 2012, 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsc

He needs a move. He walked into a team on the wane, in transition, with a coach that isn't even sure he'll be here next week, never mind how to play him.

I think he's a loathsome pansy cunt, but my God: imagine him with Rooney supplying the ammo and under SAF's guidance.

There's nothing to suggest he'd be any better for us. A lot of what made him great was down to his physical attributes and from what I've seen those seem to have deserted him. At the moment he's just a name. All of our four main strikers are better than him.

bsc · 18th February 2012, 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brophs

There's nothing to suggest he'd be any better for us. A lot of what made him great was down to his physical attributes and from what I've seen those seem to have deserted him. At the moment he's just a name. All of our four main strikers are better than him.

At present, for definite. No doubt about that.

18 months ago, most strikers in the country were better than Rooney.

Badunk · 18th February 2012, 16:41

He needs to leave England altogether imo. A fresh start in Spain or France would be his best chance of coming back into form. He's too scared here.

Broyphs · 18th February 2012, 16:44

There'll probably be a team willing to pay £20m for him, but it won't be one of the top English teams, I don't see either of the top two in Spain being interested so that probably leaves an Italian club or someone like Malaga or PSG.

Guy Incognito · 18th February 2012, 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey

I remember when he was hands down the best striker in the world. That seems a long time ago.

Probably around 2008. Form started to wane after Liverpool got eliminated from the Champions League groups.

IL_DUCE · 18th February 2012, 17:06

We all know to what extent lack of form, confidence and well-being reduces a footballers contribution on the pitch- especially when combined with high expectations.

Torres do have world-class qualities. I think however he is struggling with all the above mentioned factors and that this is affecting him negatively. I'm sure that TORRES will be back, and will not mind if this takes place in a red football kit.

lysglimt · 18th February 2012, 17:15

Some interesting stats:

Robert Rosario 39 matches 5 goals (in the P.L)
Robert Fleck 40 matches 3 goals (in the P.L)
Gary Birtles 58 matches 11 goals (for United)
Fernando Torres 46 matches 5 goals (all competitions for Chelsea)

So he is better than Fleck - but not as good as Birtles and Rosario....

Cheesy · 18th February 2012, 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by IL_DUCE

We all know to what extent lack of form, confidence and well-being reduces a footballers contribution on the pitch- especially when combined with high expectations.

Torres do have world-class qualities. I think however he is struggling with all the above mentioned factors and that this is affecting him negatively. I'm sure that TORRES will be back, and will not mind if this takes place in a red football kit.

I think that while you're right that these factors are having a negative effect on Torres, it's a lot simpler than that. Whatever way you want to look at it, he doesn't have the ability as a footballer that he once had when he was at Liverpool.

I'm sure that he'll imrpove sometime, whether it's with Chelsea or not, but I can't see us ever seeing the Torres of old that could score 25+ in a season where he was mostly fit, and was one of the most feared strikers in the whole of Europe.

MUFCgal · 18th February 2012, 17:37

Let's be honest, a team would take him now because of the name Torres, because they'd hope they can turn him back to the striker he once was a few years ago.

Could it happen at United? We're not 100%. Under the guidance of Sir Alex Ferguson, and the type of football we play, I'd like to think we could get him scoring again.

He'll never come to us though.

Sean_RedDevil · 18th February 2012, 17:42

He is a much better player in a 4-4-2 formation.

bsc · 18th February 2012, 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean_RedDevil

He is a much better player in a 4-4-2 formation.

Interestingly Saha is the same. Last week for Spurs with another striker beside him looked completely rejuvenated. Maybe psychological?

He didn't really look comfortable at Everton being the only striker and almost demanded to deliver goals given their poor return.

Wittmann45 · 18th February 2012, 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean_RedDevil

He is a much better player in a 4-4-2 formation.

But didn't he play his best football as a lone striker with Gerrard as the furthest advanced midfielder?

Brwned · 18th February 2012, 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wittmann45

But didn't he play his best football as a lone striker with Gerrard as the furthest advanced midfielder?

Indeed, and he always looked a bit out of place in Spain alongside Villa with both of them looking at their best when the other wasn't playing. From what I remember he played up top on his own at Atletico too, so really the only time he played in a front two consistently and his international record is pretty poor.

OneUnited24 · 18th February 2012, 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wittmann45

But didn't he play his best football as a lone striker with Gerrard as the furthest advanced midfielder?

TBH i thought he was at his best in a 442 (Gerrard as a AMF is the same as a SS imo)

Justin · 18th February 2012, 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by lysglimt

Some interesting stats:

Robert Rosario 39 matches 5 goals (in the P.L)
Robert Fleck 40 matches 3 goals (in the P.L)
Gary Birtles 58 matches 11 goals (for United)
Fernando Torres 46 matches 5 goals (all competitions for Chelsea)

So he is better than Fleck - but not as good as Birtles and Rosario....

And Shevchenko was something like 9 goal in 47 games, so he needs 4 in the next game just to equal that.

Sewelly The Geordie · 18th February 2012, 22:49

Physical attributes have deserted him and mentally he's crushed. I think it's more the former though, doesn't appear to have the tools to adapt his game either.

LoveInTheAsylum · 19th February 2012, 02:18

reasonably interesting article on his slump by the financial times. some excerpts:

The tragedy of Fernando Torres - FT.com

Quote:

William Wiener, an expert in cognitive behavioural therapy, said that all people struggled at times with "performance anxiety" but that the problem was magnified immeasurably in the case of a "very highly paid athlete who is very much under the miscroscope and who, let’s not forget, is invariably a very young man."
...
Francis Roig is a coach of Spain’s all-conquering Davis Cup team and also second coach to the no less triumphant Rafa Nadal..."One way to recover your form, though there is no magic cure I am aware of, is not to dwell on the negative aspects of your game, to forget that and focus on the things you’ve always done well in your career going back to childhood." Roig, a keen football fan, sees Fernando Torres as an extreme case who has succumbed to "a dynamic in which everything you did before effortlessly becomes impossible, and then you try harder, working double as much, but things only get worse."

"My guess," said William Wiener of Torres, picking up on Solari’s and Roig’s points, "is that he is overthinking each move, that something in his mental processes is not as relaxed as it once was." John Murray, who before becoming a sports psychologist was a professional tennis player, also attaches blame to "overthinking" and counsels that for Torres to overcome what he describes as "catastrophic performance anxiety" he must try to play as he did when he was a child, "happily, for fun". "My hypothesis," said Murray, who has addressed loss of form problems with leading American sporstmen, "is that his confidence is shattered, that his anxiety is such that the harder he tries, the worse it gets. And he may also be in denial, which is an especially horrible thing when the whole world knows what’s going on. He needs help."
...
How willing is Torres to admit what would seem to be the screamingly obvious, that he is undergoing a crisis of confidence? Not very, judging from what both his agent and a close friend of his told me. At best, there appears to be some ambiguity on the matter. His friend, who preferred not to be identified in print, said he had seen him recently in Madrid with his family and he had looked "neither torn nor pained". "He is tranquilo. He accepts what’s happening as something normal in football and believes it has to do with Chelsea’s style of play," the friend said. Besides, the friend added, he had been playing really well since the start of the new year and hit the bar with a fantastic overhead kick that, had it gone in, "would have been goal of the season". Nevertheless, the friend did seem to suggest the possibility of something going on in Torres’ mind too when he proposed that perhaps Liverpool had "laid the evil eye on him". "It’s tough, sure. He spent eight games as a substitute at the end of last year. That had never happened to him, not even as a child."

It is hard to imagine that that experience would not have sapped his confidence but Torres’ agent, Antonio Sanz, insisted on the same line, for the most part, as the unnamed friend. "The reading I make of all this, and that we understand is the right one, is that it is purely a footballing question," Sanz said. “Two coaches at Chelsea in the year Fernando has been there have not helped either. It has obliged him in each case to adapt to different styles of play from the one under which he had thrived at Liverpool." This obviates the fact that he has not adapted to the style of play of the Spanish national team either: he is in grave danger of being dropped for the European Championships finals in the summer. Yet Sanz appeared to be adamant. "What we’re not seeing are goals, sure, but physically he is the same as he ever was and mentally there is no problem."
...
How about Torres turning to psychological help? I asked his agent Antonio Sanz. Instead of the expected rebuff, Sanz said Torres might be open to the idea and would examine it if it were proposed by his club. That might be the last card left for Torres to play, unless he were suddenly to recover his form – by the very same mysterious processes through which he lost it.

I personally agree with it being a mixture of physical and mental. Kaka is the only recent player I can liken it to. Players like Torres and Kaka made their reputations as dynamic players, Torres was a goalscorer, all about explosive play, his directness, his extra yard of pace. His body broke down and he didn't take the time needed to properly recover. Players who are so direct in their play really struggle when they can no longer rely on the peak physicality that made them such incredible players. Torres has never been a great footballer. English needs a word for that, it's not about how effective you are whilst on the ball - Torres and Kaka were incredibly effective footballers, their every touch took them towards goal - but it's about how a player reads the game, how they interact with teammates, the ball and space. Torres has not had such great ability to fall back on and so is finding it really difficult to adapt (as someone like Giggs was able to). Instead that doubt in his mind when it comes to the physical side has likely turned into more and more pressure, like with Kaka a big transfer came with so much expectation.

Torres is obviously not as bad a player as he looks now (I think the style of play at Chelsea does come into it slightly) and someone like Kaka has managed to recover pretty well. But I doubt that Torres will ever again be the player he was.

IL_DUCE · 19th February 2012, 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheesy

I think that while you're right that these factors are having a negative effect on Torres, it's a lot simpler than that. Whatever way you want to look at it, he doesn't have the ability as a footballer that he once had when he was at Liverpool.

I'm sure that he'll imrpove sometime, whether it's with Chelsea or not, but I can't see us ever seeing the Torres of old that could score 25+ in a season where he was mostly fit, and was one of the most feared strikers in the whole of Europe.

We can only speculate on his future. I am however in no doubt that he has the necessary abilities to once again emerge as a world class striker. The question is whether he has the mental strength IMO. I see a passion and determination in him that makes this very likely....

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 19th February 2012, 10:08

IMO Chelsea's set up currently is just so wrong for him. Then have no winger who support him in the box and they have no midfielder who offers support in the box from deep consistently for him to play with 1-2 's as he runs into space. That lack of support coupled with his obvious loss of confidence is making the crisis of no goals stretch on and on.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 19th February 2012, 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wittmann45

But didn't he play his best football as a lone striker with Gerrard as the furthest advanced midfielder?

Yes. At Chelsea he lacks that type of support from his midfield.

Sean_RedDevil · 21st February 2012, 20:55

West Ham failed with loan bid for striker Fernando Torres in January

Broyphs · 21st February 2012, 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean_RedDevil

West Ham failed with loan bid for striker Fernando Torres in January

Big Sam was obviously at a loose end one afternoon.

Moyespopper · 21st February 2012, 21:18

2 goals down away in Europe and Chelsea make their final 2 subs with 20 mins to go, Torres isn't one of them.

Working out well for him then.

Danny1982 · 21st February 2012, 21:27

Fernando Torres (Chelsea/total): 47 appearances, 5 goals.
Nemanja Vidic (2010-2011 season): 47 appearances, 5 goals.

Would SAF sub in Vidic if we were behind?

Guy Incognito · 21st February 2012, 21:37

But, but, but...I thought he was the future and Drogba the past?

Cutch · 21st February 2012, 21:38

Apparently as its pancake day AVB agreed to let his biggest tosser have the night off

SteveJ · 22nd February 2012, 19:28

Skywarden · 22nd February 2012, 19:46

IBleedRed · 22nd February 2012, 19:47

Sunny Jim · 22nd February 2012, 20:05

why would.sb waste their time to make it,, oh fuck it

gooDevil · 22nd February 2012, 21:21

I think we can finally conclude that injuries have ruined a once great player, and it's also gotten into his head and caused him to become completely useless.

Should remind us all of how hard it is to change your game and how amazing Giggs is for doing it twice, once to adjust for persistent hamstring injuries and again when he became a central midfielder.

Though Torres in defense couldn't be any worse than Sideshow Bob.

King_Eric · 22nd February 2012, 23:15

Danny1982 · 22nd February 2012, 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by King_Eric

sajeev · 23rd February 2012, 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by King_Eric

in the form he is in, it is still just 'might'. The ball could end up going behind where he hit if from, ala O'Shea in the Carling Cup match against West Ham last season

Wittmann45 · 23rd February 2012, 06:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooDevil

I think we can finally conclude that injuries have ruined a once great player, and it's also gotten into his head and caused him to become completely useless.

Should remind us all of how hard it is to change your game and how amazing Giggs is for doing it twice, once to adjust for persistent hamstring injuries and again when he became a central midfielder.

Though Torres in defense couldn't be any worse than Sideshow Bob.

Should also remind us of Saha. He was once a perfect player for our system, but injuries not only ruined him physically, but mentally as well. I remember an interview he did after he left for Everton where he mentioned that injuries really affected his confidence and forced him to leave the club. It was a damn shame because Louis was a great fit when fit, which wasn't all that often...

amolbhatia100 · 23rd February 2012, 06:57

Is it injuries though? His ability still looks top notch to me. He still looks like someone who can destroy defenders but his decision making fucks it up somehow.

My memory is really failing me but I seem to remember him doing really well tobmakd space for an easy finish in the game against us at the bridge only to complicate things too much trying another dummy and missing. Am I right?

That kind of thing sums him up right now. It's a bit like the game at ot where he actually played pretty well, scored a goal as well and maneuvered well to have an empty net before him but missed. He's just finding ways to fuck things up right now, even when he does something good.

Anyone aware of any personal problems? He's too talented for this.

jojojo · 24th February 2012, 19:07

He's been dropped from the Spanish squad for the midweek friendly. Left out for the first time since 2006. Del Bosque says, "It hurts to drop him," but that it wouldn't be fair to Soldada and the others to keep him in.

RDCR07 · 24th February 2012, 19:10

I think its a fair decision. Unless they had no one due to injuries, Torres is down the pecking order.

Cheesy · 24th February 2012, 19:41

Not surprised to see him out of the Spain squad at all. Del Bosque deserves credit for having the guts to be able to drop a big name who doesn't deserve to be there. Players like Soldado have been so much better than him recently. If he had been picked, then he would've been going based on reputation alone.

gormless · 5th March 2012, 10:14

Averaging 2.5 goals per manager

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18th February 2012, 16:41	#1003 (permalink)
Badunk First Team Sub Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: If it is important to you, you will find a way. If not, you will find an excuse Posts: 9,658	He needs to leave England altogether imo. A fresh start in Spain or France would be his best chance of coming back into form. He's too scared here.

18th February 2012, 16:44	#1004 (permalink)
Broyphs No Lifer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Commas are important. "Come on, Barbie, let's go party" is much less sinister than "Come on Barbie, let's go party" Posts: 33,136	There'll probably be a team willing to pay £20m for him, but it won't be one of the top English teams, I don't see either of the top two in Spain being interested so that probably leaves an Italian club or someone like Malaga or PSG.

18th February 2012, 17:06	#1006 (permalink)
IL_DUCE Reserve Team Player Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: The history of Manchester encompasses its change from a minor Lancastrian township into the pre-eminent football metropolis of the United Kingdom and the world. Posts: 2,493	We all know to what extent lack of form, confidence and well-being reduces a footballers contribution on the pitch- especially when combined with high expectations. Torres do have world-class qualities. I think however he is struggling with all the above mentioned factors and that this is affecting him negatively. I'm sure that TORRES will be back, and will not mind if this takes place in a red football kit.

18th February 2012, 17:15	#1007 (permalink)
lysglimt Reserve Team Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,592	Some interesting stats: Robert Rosario 39 matches 5 goals (in the P.L) Robert Fleck 40 matches 3 goals (in the P.L) Gary Birtles 58 matches 11 goals (for United) Fernando Torres 46 matches 5 goals (all competitions for Chelsea) So he is better than Fleck - but not as good as Birtles and Rosario....

18th February 2012, 17:37	#1009 (permalink)
MUFCgal First Team Regular Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Belfast,Northern Ireland Posts: 19,686	Let's be honest, a team would take him now because of the name Torres, because they'd hope they can turn him back to the striker he once was a few years ago. Could it happen at United? We're not 100%. Under the guidance of Sir Alex Ferguson, and the type of football we play, I'd like to think we could get him scoring again. He'll never come to us though.

18th February 2012, 17:42	#1010 (permalink)
Sean_RedDevil Twitter bot Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham + Londinium Posts: 9,963	He is a much better player in a 4-4-2 formation.

18th February 2012, 22:49	#1016 (permalink)
Sewelly The Geordie Reserve Team Player Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: The palm of Mike Ashley's hand Posts: 3,331	Physical attributes have deserted him and mentally he's crushed. I think it's more the former though, doesn't appear to have the tools to adapt his game either.

19th February 2012, 10:08	#1019 (permalink)
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Founder of IhateMakeleles.org and Gourcufffanboysareus.com Posts: 40,894	IMO Chelsea's set up currently is just so wrong for him. Then have no winger who support him in the box and they have no midfielder who offers support in the box from deep consistently for him to play with 1-2 's as he runs into space. That lack of support coupled with his obvious loss of confidence is making the crisis of no goals stretch on and on.

21st February 2012, 20:55	#1021 (permalink)
Sean_RedDevil Twitter bot Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham + Londinium Posts: 9,963	West Ham failed with loan bid for striker Fernando Torres in January

21st February 2012, 21:18	#1023 (permalink)
Moyespopper Lowering the tone since 2006 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Two manky hookers and a racist dwarf, think I'm heading home! Posts: 54,158	2 goals down away in Europe and Chelsea make their final 2 subs with 20 mins to go, Torres isn't one of them. Working out well for him then.

21st February 2012, 21:27	#1024 (permalink)
Danny1982 First Team Sub Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Old Trafford Posts: 9,118	Fernando Torres (Chelsea/total): 47 appearances, 5 goals. Nemanja Vidic (2010-2011 season): 47 appearances, 5 goals. Would SAF sub in Vidic if we were behind?

21st February 2012, 21:37	#1025 (permalink)
Guy Incognito First Team Sub Join Date: May 2011 Location: Somewhere Posts: 7,415	But, but, but...I thought he was the future and Drogba the past?

21st February 2012, 21:38	#1026 (permalink)
Cutch Shit stirrer (Literally) Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Northern Ireland. W3102, Row 2, Seat 129 Posts: 7,392	Apparently as its pancake day AVB agreed to let his biggest tosser have the night off

22nd February 2012, 19:28	#1027 (permalink)
SteveJ Newbie of the Year 2011. Twat of the Millenium. Hide yo' wife, oates! Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: "Holistic" Posts: 23,636

22nd February 2012, 19:46	#1028 (permalink)
Skywarden First Team Sub Join Date: May 2009 Location: Sweden Posts: 5,443

22nd February 2012, 19:47	#1029 (permalink)
IBleedRed likes to use pantyhose Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ander's Doppelganger Posts: 5,955

22nd February 2012, 20:05	#1030 (permalink)
Sunny Jim First Team Regular Join Date: May 2007 Location: Warsaw...that's too far away from Edinburgh... Posts: 16,267	why would.sb waste their time to make it,, oh fuck it

22nd February 2012, 21:21	#1031 (permalink)
gooDevil Worst scout ever Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: The Kids are the Future Posts: 17,029	I think we can finally conclude that injuries have ruined a once great player, and it's also gotten into his head and caused him to become completely useless. Should remind us all of how hard it is to change your game and how amazing Giggs is for doing it twice, once to adjust for persistent hamstring injuries and again when he became a central midfielder. Though Torres in defense couldn't be any worse than Sideshow Bob.

22nd February 2012, 23:15	#1032 (permalink)
King_Eric Reserve Team Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Bruges Posts: 1,627

23rd February 2012, 06:57	#1036 (permalink)
amolbhatia100 Coach (But never a mod) Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: india Posts: 32,946	Is it injuries though? His ability still looks top notch to me. He still looks like someone who can destroy defenders but his decision making fucks it up somehow. My memory is really failing me but I seem to remember him doing really well tobmakd space for an easy finish in the game against us at the bridge only to complicate things too much trying another dummy and missing. Am I right? That kind of thing sums him up right now. It's a bit like the game at ot where he actually played pretty well, scored a goal as well and maneuvered well to have an empty net before him but missed. He's just finding ways to fuck things up right now, even when he does something good. Anyone aware of any personal problems? He's too talented for this.

24th February 2012, 19:07	#1037 (permalink)
jojojo First Team Sub Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Engaged in a Valencian standoff with some Barca fans - Viva United Posts: 9,881	He's been dropped from the Spanish squad for the midweek friendly. Left out for the first time since 2006. Del Bosque says, "It hurts to drop him," but that it wouldn't be fair to Soldada and the others to keep him in.

24th February 2012, 19:10	#1038 (permalink)
RDCR07 Not a bad guy (Whale Killer) Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Special One on the Great One: "I don't call him Alex or Sir or Mister. I call him Boss!" Posts: 14,557	I think its a fair decision. Unless they had no one due to injuries, Torres is down the pecking order.

24th February 2012, 19:41	#1039 (permalink)
Cheesy Smells Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Scotland Posts: 9,104	Not surprised to see him out of the Spain squad at all. Del Bosque deserves credit for having the guts to be able to drop a big name who doesn't deserve to be there. Players like Soldado have been so much better than him recently. If he had been picked, then he would've been going based on reputation alone.

5th March 2012, 10:14	#1040 (permalink)
gormless Reserve Team Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: comfortable and settled in my rut Posts: 3,942	Averaging 2.5 goals per manager