Berbatov

devilish · 24th July 2008, 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekeke

Scholes has seen the requirements of his position change though. He's not making the runs he used to, not scoring the goals he used to. The same would happen with Berbatov and while you can cope with a midfielder who doesnt score too many goals its another thing if that becomes of one of your strikers.

Yes, Berbatov's fantastic touch, technique and vision will allow him to play slightly longer than Eto'o for example. But he'd still be a few levels below where he is now and a younger player may be seen to offer more at that point - playing next to Rooney or Tevez who share similar vision.

We can only guess right now.

Scholes is still a fantastic scorer and would score alot (maybe not as many as he used to be) if only he is played less deep. Have you forgotten his master piece against Barcelona?

Berbatov will be similar to Sheringham.

gaffs · 24th July 2008, 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekeke

People claim that a player who 'doesnt rely on pace' will play longer. But, just because a striker isnt known for his pace doesn't mean he isn't relying on it. You need a certain amount of speed to be effective, even if its the bare minimum with your other ablities in your arsenal making you the player that you are.

You still need to be first to the ball, you still need to create half a yard of space, you still need to be able to take advantage of that space and be able to move through it at a certain speed, else the defenders will recover. While experience and having a footballing brain aid you in this, speed itself plays an important part too.

So yes, while those players may play a little longer - when the pace starts to go, they will be some way off the best options in their position. At a top club, if your level drops you may find yourself replaced.

As for Villa, even when the pace goes he'll still have a footballing brain and a pass the same way Berbatov will. At half his speed he'd still be a heck of a player. Though once again, at a top club he may find himself replaced.

Good points. I agree to a certain extent.

Though there are players for who speed is their greatest attribute and they rely heavily on it. When the speed goes, as does their effectiveness and some find it hard to adapt their game.

I think Berbatov would find it easy to adapt to a loss of pace in his 30s because of his intelligence and the fact he is not over reliant on this speed.

Very fast players also tend to get injured more.

Some think Berbatov is slow - for those ppl, check out the goal he scored against Charlton a couple of seasons ago.

thoward · 24th July 2008, 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by uae

Adebayor was only 3.5?

He was £7 million.

MadDogg · 24th July 2008, 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekeke

People claim that a player who 'doesnt rely on pace' will play longer. But, just because a striker isnt known for his pace doesn't mean he isn't relying on it. You need a certain amount of speed to be effective, even if its the bare minimum with your other ablities in your arsenal making you the player that you are.

You still need to be first to the ball, you still need to create half a yard of space, you still need to be able to take advantage of that space and be able to move through it at a certain speed, else the defenders will recover. While experience and having a footballing brain aid you in this, speed itself plays an important part too.

So yes, while those players may play a little longer - when the pace starts to go, they will be some way off the best options in their position. At a top club, if your level drops you may find yourself replaced.

As for Villa, even when the pace goes he'll still have a footballing brain and a pass the same way Berbatov will. At half his speed he'd still be a heck of a player. Though once again, at a top club he may find himself replaced.

Explosive pace is what really takes it out of the body. That wears down the muscles and joints, and these players tend to burn bright but also burn for shorter amounts of time. So these players not only generally rely on their pace more, but they also tend to start losing their pace earlier.

Also, players who rely on their pace will miss it a lot more when it's gone. Look at Scholes. He never relied all that much on pace, so as he lost it he was able to modify his game so that he was still just as effective (06/07 was his best or second best ever season). Teddy, Bergkamp, etc...even though they may still lose a bit of pace, it's generally to a lesser degree and is often offset by the increase in experience and decision-making.

Obviously there is no hard-and-fast rule, but generally players of Berbatov's ilk do last longer than most other players. So to constantly go on about him being 27 is a bit cringe-worthy, as his 27 is more like most players 25 or so.

Ekeke · 24th July 2008, 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by devilish

Scholes is still a fantastic scorer and would score alot (maybe not as many as he used to be) if only he is played less deep. Have you forgotten his master piece against Barcelona?

Berbatov will be similar to Sheringham.

I didnt say he cant hit a ball. But he doesnt make the runs he used to, which happens with most players as they get older.

He's getting forward less and making the ball do the work more. If a striker does the same thing, he'll become reliant on his partner to be the one chasing lost causes and making most of the threatening runs.

I personally don't like Rooney doing that. I'd rather someone else was doing the ugly work, leaving Rooney to get on with what he's known best during his career. Getting the ball around the edge of the box and making things happen. But even now, thats hardly Berbatov's style - even less so when he hits 30.

He's still a better option than most. But I don't think he's the best kind of partner for Rooney.

devilish · 24th July 2008, 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekeke

I didnt say he cant hit a ball. But he doesnt make the runs he used to, which happens with most players as they get older.

He's getting forward less and making the ball do the work more. If a striker does the same thing, he'll become reliant on his partner to be the one chasing lost causes and making most of the threatening runs.

I personally don't like Rooney doing that. I'd rather someone else was doing the ugly work, leaving Rooney do get on with what he's known best during his career. Getting the ball around the edge of the box and making things happen. Bt even now, thats hardly Berbatov's style - even less so when he hits 30.

He's still a better option than most. But I don't think he's the best kind of partner for Rooney.

Scholes is playing in a different role now. I think its unfair to judge him because of his age.

And you reach your peak (as a striker) at 30 years +. Unless of course you're one of those players who completely rely on pace.

7even · 24th July 2008, 13:46

Glaston.

What is your honest opinion regarding Berbatov?

You have seen him in good and bad times. Is he IHO worth £20-25m and do you thing he will adapt playing for United. I mean Torres cost £25m.

I have seen Berb several times but I'm still not sure if he's one of the best or just a very good player.

711 · 24th July 2008, 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7even

Glaston.

What is your honest opinion regarding Berbatov?

You have seen him in good and bad times. Is he IHO worth £20-25m and do you thing he will adapt playing for United. I mean Torres cost £25m.

I have seen Berb several times but I'm still not sure if he's one of the best or just a very good player.

Good question.

Mainoldo · 24th July 2008, 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7even

Glaston.

What is your honest opinion regarding Berbatov?

You have seen him in good and bad times. Is he IHO worth £20-25m and do you thing he will adapt playing for United. I mean Torres cost £25m.

I have seen Berb several times but I'm still not sure if he's one of the best or just a very good player.

Berbabtov and Torres are the best strikers in the league, simple as!! Regarding with adapting with United, his not moving country i don't think it will be that hard!!

Ekeke · 24th July 2008, 14:12

You have to take into account that Torres and Berbatov are very different players. Even if everyone agreed that both were worth £25 million, Torres is obviously the player more suited to playing with an off-striker like Rooney. Or, it should be obvious.

Pogue Mahone · 24th July 2008, 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekeke

I didnt say he cant hit a ball. But he doesnt make the runs he used to, which happens with most players as they get older.

He's getting forward less and making the ball do the work more. If a striker does the same thing, he'll become reliant on his partner to be the one chasing lost causes and making most of the threatening runs.

A striker won't do the same thing though, because strikers don't have defensive duties, in the same way that midfielders do.

Strikers in their 30s don't have to sit deeper, or make less attacking runs, if they lose a yard of pace because they're not expected to sprint back and cover the back four if we lose posession. Midfielders, OOH, are forced to adapt their game, or risk being constantly caught out of position. Which is what Scholes has done

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekeke

I personally don't like Rooney doing that. I'd rather someone else was doing the ugly work, leaving Rooney to get on with what he's known best during his career. Getting the ball around the edge of the box and making things happen.

I agree with this. I would like to see Rooney be a bit more selfish, be a bit less worried about defending and generally save himself for doing what he does best, in the final third of the pitch.

I think he can learn a lot from Berbatov in this regard. Which would make him an excellent mentor for Rooney.

Pogue Mahone · 24th July 2008, 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekeke

You have to take into account that Torres and Berbatov are very different players. Even if everyone agreed that both were worth £25 million, Torres is obviously the player more suited to playing with an off-striker like Rooney. Or, it should be obvious.

Who says Rooney is an "off-striker"? That's certainly not how Fergie sees him.

Ekeke · 24th July 2008, 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Who says Rooney is an "off-striker"? That's certainly not how Fergie sees him.

Thats how he's been for his career until last season, where lots of people were dissappointed with his contribution.

He doesn't have consistant enough finishing to be a lead the line striker, in my opinion. You want your main goalscorer to be this player as he's closest to goal. I think his form and confidence are directly tied to him being allowed back into his former position where he'd quickly get back to his best.

Before last season however, I felt Rooney is just the kind of player that you could put anywhere on a football pitch and if you give him 6 months of playing there consistantly, he'd learn to be one of the best there. And to an extent, Rooney did that. But the finishing just wasnt there. I dont think this position for him anymore. I'd like to see the Wayne Rooney of a few years ago - but better, due to the experiment with him leading the line (and improving his movement and positioning) and through the experience he's gained.

Pogue Mahone · 24th July 2008, 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekeke

Thats how he's been for his career until last season, where lots of people were dissappointed with his contribution.

He doesn't have consistant enough finishing to be a lead the line striker, in my opinion. You want your main goalscorer to be this player as he's closest to goal. I think his form and confidence are directly tied to him being allowed back into his former position where he'd quickly get back to his best.

Before last season however, I felt Rooney is just the kind of player that you could put anywhere on a football pitch and if you give him 6 months of playing there consistantly, he'd learn to be one of the best there. And to an extent, Rooney did that. But the finishing just wasnt there. I dont think this position for him anymore. I'd like to see the Wayne Rooney of a few years ago - but better, due to the experiment with him leading the line (and improving his movement and positioning) and through the experience he's gained.

Why oh why oh why do so many people think that Rooney's a) got a problem with finishing and b) this should affect where he is expected to play.

His finishing was inconsistent last season, so was his touch, his dribbling, the accuracy of his passing etc. etc. etc. These were all linked and were indicative of a player who was struggling for form.

When he did hit some decent form his finishing improved, along with every other aspect of his game.

Wayne Rooney is perfectly equipped to play in almost any attacking position on the pitch. As Fergie points out, he is probably at his most effective when he is played centrally but that is the only restriction that should be put on where he can and can't play.

I'm sick to my back teeth of people banging on about how Rooney should only ever play as a "support striker". Fergie obviously doesn't think he should be limited to playing this one position and it baffles me how so many caftards disagree with him on this

Ekeke · 24th July 2008, 14:39

I clearly said I believe his confidence and form are tied to him being dropped back into his natural role. Yes his poor finishing was down to poor form - here's a way to fix that.

Simon Adebesi · 24th July 2008, 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Speaking of players that aren't reliant on place, Paul Scholes is still a phenomenal player at almost 34, isn't he? He's certainly not finding himself replaced this season.

Which means we should get, more or less, another 7 good seasons out of Berbatov. Which puts some of the bleating about price into perspective.

So because Scholes is still mint at 34 Berbatov will be? Give me a break.

Pogue Mahone · 24th July 2008, 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekeke

I clearly said I believe his confidence and form are tied to him being dropped back into his natural role. Yes his poor finishing was down to poor form - here's a way to fix that.

Well if his finishing is good (and we all know how quick and strong he is) why does he have to play "in the hole"? Surely he will be just as effective, playing in a more advanced role than Berbatov?

FWIW, I think that Rooney and Berbatov are both intelligent enough footballers to alternate roles, with both of them as likely to come deep as they are to make runs off the shoulder of the last defender, in much the same way that Rooney and Tevez linked up at times last season.

Pogue Mahone · 24th July 2008, 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Adebesi

So because Scholes is still mint at 34 Berbatov will be? Give me a break.

You don't see any similarities in their attributes as footballers, then?

If not, then fair enough, can't be arsed explaining them to you.

Simon Adebesi · 24th July 2008, 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

You don't see any similarities in their attributes as footballers, then?

If not, then fair enough, can't be arsed explaining them to you.

I can see some similarities. I can see some differences. Probably more of the latter to be honest. (After all, if they are so similar why dont we just play Anderson and Carrick in the middle and stick Scholes up front to lead the line? Save us a few quid, job's a goodun. But of course we arent going to do that because they are not really that similar, are they? And it would be fucking mental.)

But even if they were really, really similar players, it doesnt mean they will age the same way. Berbatov smokes, for one thing. Might possibly exacerbate the aging process a little for him?

devilish · 24th July 2008, 14:57

Berbatov is an intelligent player who rely on technique and power. Players like that tend to have longer careers then those with sheer pace because pace is something you lose with time. Of course even players like Berbatov will one day get too slow and old. There again its one thing losing a yard of pace and its another relying on it continually.

I think SAF acknowledge that Berbatov is the kind of player who would be useful even at 34 yrs of age. Thats why he wants him. Not just that, he hopes that Berbatov would prove a great influence to Rooney, leading him to the right direction.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 24th July 2008, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekeke

..... Yes his poor finishing was down to poor form - here's a way to fix that.

Wrong. His poor finishing is down to being a veyr poor finisher. A change of position wont solve that. Only practice will.

Pogue Mahone · 24th July 2008, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Adebesi

I can see some similarities. I can see some differences. Probably more of the latter to be honest. (After all, if they are so similar why dont we just play Anderson and Carrick in the middle and stick Scholes up front to lead the line? Save us a few quid, job's a goodun. But of course we arent going to do that because they are not really that similar, are they? And it would be fucking mental.)

But even if they were really, really similar players, it doesnt mean they will age the same way. Berbatov smokes, for one thing. Might possibly exacerbate the aging process a little for him?

The similarities I'm talking about is the fact their game is built on intelligence, technique, vison and skill, rather than pace, power and athleticism. Hence, they are both likely to cope with aging better than most.

The smoking thing is a fair point. But I don't imagine it will make all that much of a difference to his health. At least, not until he's another few decades older.

Pogue Mahone · 24th July 2008, 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

Wrong. His poor finishing is down to being a veyr poor finisher. A change of position wont solve that. Only practice will.

Are you implying that Rooney has always been a poor finisher?

Cause I don't remember anyone complaining about his finishing the season before last.

VoetbalWizard · 24th July 2008, 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Are you implying that Rooney has always been a poor finisher?

Cause I don't remember anyone complaining about his finishing the season before last.

certainly isn't a batistuta/luiz ronaldo/rvn/shearer when it comes to finishing. or even an eto'o.

rooney is an elite player. so yes, i am comparing his finishing to the elite finishers.

in that sense, he isn't a great finisher. he's good when he doesn't have to think about shooting.

Ekeke · 24th July 2008, 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

Wrong. His poor finishing is down to being a veyr poor finisher. A change of position wont solve that. Only practice will.

You dont think that when his confidence is sky high, his finishing wont be more clinical? At the start of last season, as he came back into the side, he was actually being very good with his finishing. But then as he came back after his injury, he never seemed to show the same confidence in front of goal.

Put him back where everything is easy to him, where he's established himself as one of the best if not the best player playing as an off striker and I dont believe we'll have to worry about a lack of confidence.

gaffs · 24th July 2008, 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Why oh why oh why do so many people think that Rooney's a) got a problem wit

24th July 2008, 13:46	#3487 (permalink)
7even Reserve Team Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In the new quadrant (left to Stretford End) paying a fortune to see nothing. Posts: 591	Glaston. What is your honest opinion regarding Berbatov? You have seen him in good and bad times. Is he IHO worth £20-25m and do you thing he will adapt playing for United. I mean Torres cost £25m. I have seen Berb several times but I'm still not sure if he's one of the best or just a very good player.

24th July 2008, 14:12	#3490 (permalink)
Ekeke McFuckwit Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,686	You have to take into account that Torres and Berbatov are very different players. Even if everyone agreed that both were worth £25 million, Torres is obviously the player more suited to playing with an off-striker like Rooney. Or, it should be obvious.

24th July 2008, 14:39	#3495 (permalink)
Ekeke McFuckwit Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,686	I clearly said I believe his confidence and form are tied to him being dropped back into his natural role. Yes his poor finishing was down to poor form - here's a way to fix that.

24th July 2008, 14:57	#3500 (permalink)
devilish Nationality: Italian-English, Maltese Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Cnut's home Posts: 17,899	Berbatov is an intelligent player who rely on technique and power. Players like that tend to have longer careers then those with sheer pace because pace is something you lose with time. Of course even players like Berbatov will one day get too slow and old. There again its one thing losing a yard of pace and its another relying on it continually. I think SAF acknowledge that Berbatov is the kind of player who would be useful even at 34 yrs of age. Thats why he wants him. Not just that, he hopes that Berbatov would prove a great influence to Rooney, leading him to the right direction.