Dean Ashton for United

Pogue Mahone

Ah. I get you now.

Apparently this still happens all the time. In Italy and Spain. Without any money changing hands.

Basically, when one team isn't playing for anything and the other team is trying to win a title/avoid relegation their fellow pros will have a word in their ears and ask them to "do the decent thing" They don't even consider this corrupt, just common sense. You scratch my back etc.

dno

Yeah it's bizarre. Their equivalent of Avram Grant wouldn't even complain either - it's "Il sistema" and just a given!
I'm glad it's not like that here, that said, I'd like Curbs to, well, not risk his players getting any injuries before their claret and blue clash for the ages against their hated nemesis Aston Villa on the final weekend.

REd FUn DevIl

We can do better than that.

Alex

Cupid Stunt

Its quite the opposite in Spain Pogue. In Spain, if say.. its like the current scenario in the Premiership. Chelsea (rival title challenging team) would be allowed to give West Ham (a team that has nothing to play for) a financial incentive to be shared between the club and its players if they get a result against United (title challenging team). It's all legal and not behind closed doors. They allow this in La Liga to maintain integrity and stop criminal activity.

Rowem

You're an angry, retarded little imp aren't you?

My point is simple: Ashton > Manucho in terms of skill.

Ive seen enough of both to say so. Ashton is English, will have no problem living in Manchester, no problem with the language, no problem with the weather, no problem getting stuck in away at Bolton. Manucho is less talented from what I have seen of him at Olympiakos and Angola, and would need time to adapt.

Comparing Torres to Manucho is ridiculous. Torres showed at Spain he was absolutely quality, anyone with a pair of eyes can see that, and anyone with a pair of eyes can see that Ashton > Manucho. I don't need to see them both in a United shirt to know that.

The other point you missed entirely is that we are looking for a backup. For a backup player, you need someone who can step in immediately and do a job. Thats why the likes of Fletch and O'Shea are great backups - they dont need time to adjust to the PL, they already are suited to it. Thats why Liverpool and Arsenal fail - because there backups are used to French or Spanish football, and dont get enough time to properly adjust. That is another reason why Ashton > Manucho.

I know we already have Manucho, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt be looking at better options if we can. He might not get a work permit for a start, and we havent put loads of money into his transfer either, so if we see a better option we should take it.

marcus agrippa

i see you didn't get the joke.



my point was that merely saying that a player is unproven in the Prem is shite because of it is, well, shite. Torres aside, just look at Santa Cruz, for instance.

it's a gamble, but one worth taking on occasion. to claim that Ashton is a better player than Manucho just on the basis of this is so ludicrous i feel foolish just debating it.

so i will stop, shake my head, and remind myself that you exemplify those qualities that make me despair of the average intelligence of the average Caffite these days.

Sarni

Instead of admitting that you have barely seen Manucho play, you try to make yourself look knowledgeable by saying that you've seen him playing in Greece without even knowing what club he plays for.

I'm not there to argue who's the better player, as I think that Ashton is a pretty good one and I don't know much about Manucho to be fair, but judging player and saying that you know enough without actually knowing much is a bit wrong.

Elliott

Seen him in a lot of Olympiakos matches have you, mate?

marcus agrippa

Rowem, i rest my case.

Rowem

Whatever, Panaicbivnsainikos, simple mistake. Not claiming I watch their every game, just saying Ive seen a few highlights and read a few match reports.

Saying a player is unproven in the PL is not shite. Infact its not what I said. I said Ashton was proven. Being unproven does not mean theyre not worth it, but being proven in PL (or, failing that, at another of Europe's top leagues) is obviously much, much better. And when your proven plus more talented, then thats obviously a nice combination.

marcus agrippa

quite digging mate.

Pogue Mahone

you're right. I knew that one of the two leagues had a slightly different system. still a bit weird though

vanthaman

he missed the whole of last season tho

Rowem

So, youre saying its not better to be proven than unproven?

marcus agrippa

i'm saying you should wait till you have irrefutable evidence before making strong statements like "Ashton is clearly a better player than Manucho". he might be. he might not be. you just don't have any evidence to back that up. falling back on the proven vs. unproven argument doesn't wash at all. plenty of decent imports are unproven as well.

Cupid Stunt

Yes, I couldnt get my head around it at first. It does make sense though. They need scheme's like this to stop those dirty, greasy foriegn feckers cheating.

Rowem

Im not falling back on it. My argument comes in three parts.

1. Ashton is more talented. Manucho looks very good of what Ive seen for Angola, although has struggled at Pansomethingikea. Ashton just looks better. Looks better with the ball at his feet. Better movement off it. Looks a little more aggresive in nature.

2. Ashton is used to the roughness and pace of the PL. Thats not writing off Manucho, its just fact. Ashton can definately hack it, and I would be alot more confident with him on the bench.

3. For a BACKUP player, you want someone who can step in immediately and do a job, e.g. O'Shea and Fletcher. For that, you want someone proven. You want someone who wont need TIME to adjust, because if they only get the odd game here and there then one thing they dont have is time.


So far youve responded to only one of these points

Steev

He requested a temporary ban.

Manchester United Vs. Westham United

Longlivekeano

Ashton=The English Louis Saha II.....nuff said

marcus agrippa

all decent enough points.

except, perhaps it is not unexpected for a player to struggle having come to Europe for the first time. and he's only been there a couple of months. after a gruelling tournament.

if one were to always go with the 'tried and tested', a lot of very good players would never make an impression in this league. the fact that SAF has had a look and signed Manucho gives me more confidence. he's not infallible, but that's a big boost for me.

i'm not sure about the backup bit.

let's look at our situation. we have definitely brought in Manucho, so that's Tevez, Rooney and Manucho as our striking players (i'm not counting Saha, since he'll probably be sold; and even if he isn't, he won't really be available anyway through injury).

imo, we have to be looking at a top class centre forward as a different option, someone like Saha, with pace, athleticism, good technique and movement. i don't think it realistic for us to be after a fourth-choice-type player. which rules Ashton out.

Rowem

Agree with your point we need a top notch striker. If you look at my first post, which you quoted and started this whole drama, I said I still think we need Benzema type player, with then someone to be a 4th choice. I would prefer Ashton over Manucho as 4th choice. If Manucho were to cost £8m, then we wouldnt have shown any interest. Thats the difference. Although if Manucho does get his work permit and we do get a Benzema type player, I suppose theres no real need to go for Ashton this season. I reckon he needs a season at West Ham wheres hes fully fit first.

Sarni

No, not whatever. Manucho has played like two games for Panathinaikos and you still maintain that you SAW him there and can judge him on that basis. I believe you didn't see him for Panathinaikos at all. Firstly, hardly anyone cares about Greek league except for Greeks, secondly you would have known the name of the team at very least.

samabachan

Rooney, Tevez, Ashton and Campbell would please me.

Rowem

I have no real need to remember which team it was, and it's an easy mistake to make anyway. Where did I say I was at the stadium or anything? Ive seen his goal for them and seen quite good highlights of him playing for them in a friendly against some Japanese team (in which he played v.well, I just dont rate him as highly as Ashton) and I've read a few mach reports/previews (which generally dont include him as he doesnt play) - and yes, I said SAW him, but I said "from what I have seen" - I wasnt implying that was alot, I'm sorry you read it that way but in truth it meant the opposite, I was admitting I have not seen much but from what I have I have formed an opinion. I also combined it with what I saw of him with Angola, which was quite alot during ACN. I didn't see the need to say "I have seen him for Angola and a little for Panasfdjikios" when its quicker to see "I have seen him for Angola and Panasfdjfdscjnbfndsvsdf". You pedantic cunt.

Sean_RedDevil

Ashton would be a good addition if we could get him on the CHEAP.

Sarni

Well I'm probably quite allergic to some members of this board who claim they have seen every single player in the world enough to judge because "they are so much into football".