SAF on a striker: "But we do need experience." - Berbatov?

Godfather

Saha Is Back! Have Faith!

Ekeke

Back in Fulham, I hope.

devilish

I agree. Stating that let me add something to it. Dont you think that if Chelsea truly want Berbatov they will outbid us whether we will bid 15m for him or 50? I mean its not as if they lack of money dont they?

Sarni

I don't think he meant any player below 23 in that interview. Regardless how much playing time you have had, you are not experienced at the age of 23, you've come past only one generation of players.

cekscrayons

There is more money in football, than there has ever been. Your accusations are absurd. Real payed £45m because they are Real, They have a history of big transfer fees. Best player of his generation in many peoples eyes, and I bet most Real madrid fans would say he was worth every penny.

But again, you fail to accept that established world class players command bigger fees.

You are building straw men arguments again. I have never said Real wouldn't have preferred Messi to Zidane..Like I said people like Messi, Rooney are special cases, and are rare.

How would i check this Devilish?

Hleb and Ribery? Sorry I don't get what you re trying to point out here?

Freak

Can we have either david villa or benzema please? Pretty please fergie?

Sarni

It won't happen. The so-called outbidding that is being talked about and apparently practised by Chelsea doesn't realy exist. They have yet to break English transfer record and Abramovich has been around for 5 years already.

You don't go and buy a Snickers for 2 pounds when you can have it for 1 pound, even though 2 pounds is nothing to your wages. It's equally accurate when we talk about bigger sums as well.

Abramovich won't just go and pay 40 for Berbatov when we bid 20. It has never happened, has it?

cekscrayons

Thats a good point.

Ekeke

Its all down to interpretation. He listed Manucho - who has hardly set foot in european football, Campbell who has hardly stepped foot in the premiership or a decent league and Welbeck who has hardly stepped foot into the reserves and then he says "but we need experience too."

To me, he means experience compared to 3 completely unproven players. He wants someone who has maybe played a full season in a half decent league. Maybe someone who has played for their country. Perhaps someone who has played in the champions league.

But that doesnt really have anything to do with age. Some players have been playing for their sides since they were 17 or 18.

He obviously wants someone who has already shown they are a good player. But that doesnt mean we're signing Berbatov or Owen.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

The thing is he wants to play for us. & we don't lack money to compete with Chelsea. & as the market will most likely go the most anyone will pay for him is 2m5. Nothing more. & most likely even much less

cekscrayons

Very true.

Ekeke

Sure you can. Consider it done.

devilish

Youre joking am I right? Apart from the EPL which is still going strong (and few other clubs spread around the world) there is no money left in football. And Im not talking about the small clubs like Fiorentina and Napoli (who once could afford world class talent like Maradona, Careca, Dunga, Laudrup, Zola etc) but also the bigger clubs like Lazio, Roma and even clubs like AC Milan whose spending power is much weaker then it was in the past. Same thing but at a less degree is seen in both Spain and Germany.

Players are nowadays considered as investment and the younger there are the better. Of course there are special cases such as Beckham and Ronaldinho who can generate so much money out of merchandizing which would be stupid to let them go (Its estimated that Real lost 30m out of Beckham this year) but Berbatov doesnt fall in that category. Regarding Messi/Zidane Ive compared one of the best young wingers in the world, with the best midfielder of his generation to prove that your theory about finishing products costing more then great young talent is wrong

devilish

I cant recall one player who was sought by both Manchester United and Chelsea and ended up with us. Signing an 18 yr old from Lyn for 12m is a bit of a snicker bought for 2 pounds isnt it?

cekscrayons

Devilish:

Granted; there is more money in the EPL than other leagues. This is due to foreign investment from the likes of Abramovich, Lerner, Glazer, etc the list goes on..If you inject money into one league, clubs will obviously get richer. It comes as no suprise that 4 English teams reached the CL semi final. I actually admire teams in the Italian league, who choose not to sell the club.

Let me get this straight. You are saying that all clubs, other than those in the EPL(bar a few exceptions) are getting poorer?
You have listed Lazio, Roma, and AC Milan. These are all Italian teams, and do not support your sweeping statement that all "there is no money in football". Milan, Inter, Roma and Juventus all earn over 60% of their income through TV contracts alone. Each side takes home less than 15% on a matchday and no more than 30 %commercially.

Italy’s top clubs are too dependent on television money which is unpredictable. Every team in Serie A is obliged to negotiate its television rights individually. This has, in the past, led to the season starting late, like in 2002-03 and 2003-04. From 2010-11 this will no longer be the case as the Italian government introduces collective bargaining, which will seriously dent Milan, Inter, Roma and Juventus’ ability to make as much money from television - one of the reasons Premiership clubs are so rich is because each receive a relatively equal share of the pie in return for unprecedented visibility. All 20 Premiership sides receive more coverage in more countries than any other in the world.

Milan need to exploit their brand as well as Man Utd do. Why are Arsenal head and shoulders above Inter, Juve and Roma? Because their stadium is not owned by the council but the Gunners themselves! If only Italian clubs owned and invested in their stadia we would see more bums on seats and less violence. Arsenal have seen a 111 per cent increase in their matchday revenue since moving from Highbury and selling the naming right of Ashburton Grove.

My point is, money isn't just dissapearing from football, like you seem to think it is. Everone is in agreement that the Italian league needs an upgrade. This will require investment to clubs like Roma who are crippled with debt. But foreigners know that if you buy an Italian club you will also have to deal with the Italian government. In England the culture of a free market is much more embraced and government stays away from business.

Listing a few clubs, does little to support your argument. All clubs rise and fall. Any club can be run badly, and many Italian clubs have been.
Just look at Leeds as an example of a club being run badly.

How much did they each cost? Is this even relevant? The world has changed a lot since then.

Where has the money evapourated to? If you take Real Madrid as an example, the world’s richest club. It receives 23% of its income from gate receipts and corporate hospitality etc, 39%f rom commercial outlets such as shirt sales and other merchandising and 38% from Television. The money hasn't just dissapeared. More money is being made from all of the above than ever before when regarding most clubs. But like you said, people like Beckham are special cases so Real have probably lost in terms of merchandising this year.

This has been the case for years, nothing has changed.

You have actually proved nothing. As it is theoretical, and nobody can tell whether Real would have chosen Messi over Zidane if the prices were the same. But once again, you have missed my point. Ill say it one last time: Players like Messi, Benzema and Rooney are special cases, and are very rare. Its very unusual for such a young player to command such a high transfer fee. Which makes your point about Messi and Zidane completely redundant.

I don't understand the relevance of bringing Ronaldinho into this debate. Are you under the impression that he was a great star, with massive marketability before he joined Barcelona? Or are you suggesting he will retain a high transfer fee, because of his marketability? I thought I read somewhere that Milan have refused to pay over £10m., and I doubt many other teams will be prepared to take a risk on another washed up brazilian super star, just because they can sell more shirts.

devilish

You actually showed you know little about the Serie A anyway.

The Serie A finances are weak because

a) The football ground are not owned by the clubs but by the local councils

b) The Italian culture is different. Many supporters prefer to watch the game at home rather then at the stadium

c) The Italian clubs has yet to learn how to exploit merchandizing fully. Many clubs still work in the traditional way (ie a rich owner pumps all the money for the clubs to exist out of his own pocket) and there are very few billionaires running around

d) Business Scandals which swept Italy lately had a direct impact on football. For example the Cirio and the Parmalat’ scandals hit Lazio and Parma directly because those clubs where owned by those companies

e) Money wasn’t invested wisely. It all went on transfers rather then on strengthening the financial side of the clubs

You’ve said that Roma and AC Milan are passing from good times which further proved how you know little about what is happening. AC Milan had registered 24m debts (Galliani hinted that they may end up selling Kaka) while Roma are in such financial shite that its very difficult for the Sensi family to keep hold on them for another year. The days when (let me not mention just one club) Lazio could afford players like Gazza, Veron and Vieri, Sampdoria could afford players like Gullit and Platt, Napoli could afford players like Maradona, Zola and Careca, Fiorentina could afford players like Laudrup, Effenberg and Dunga, Brescia could afford Hagi and Raduciou ARE OVER. The only clubs left who are with the financial pull to maybe (and Im stressing on maybe) are the traditionally rich clubs still owned by rich tycoons such as Moratti. There again I am confident that there is only one club capable of truly competing with us at financial level and that is Chelsea.

And go and ask any supporter whom they prefer between a potential world class player with 12 good years left in him or else a ‘finishing product’. I had mentioned the best in both cases Zidane and Messi. Young talent will always cost more because its an investment.

cekscrayons

I cannot believe you have posted this. You claim I know little about Serie A, when your A and C, are exactly what I referred to in my post. I also accept points B,D,E. You post as if I have denied them.

To get back to your original comment that "there is no money left in football". All you have done is show that the Italian league is struggling financially. I never said that Italian clubs were not struggling to keep up with the PL & La Liga. I even said why they are struggling in the post above. Check for yourself. Also you have a habbit of missing out my other points in your posts, points which act to make yours redundant, f you could be bothered to acknowledge them. Yet you continue to bring those same points back up.

You then decided to raise the very points that I had made in my previous post, about why the Italian league is struggling..I don't know if you have reading difficulties, or if you just skim read my posts, but I try to make them as clear as possible for you.

To say "there is no money left in football" is ludicrous. With leagues all over europe getting stronger due to financial backing. Just because the financial status of clubs in Italy is relatively poor, does not mean "there is no money left in football".

God, you really are in the habbit of making arguments up yourself, just to knock them down.

cekscrayons

Read my posts carefully.

Like I said players like Messi & Rooney are exceptions! Generally speaking, established world class players cost more than young players with potential!

As you love talking about the Italian league so much, how about this..

Would Kaka of cost a team like Real Madrid more money 5 years ago? or more now? (after winning world player of the year etc, and establishing himself as world class) This cost is not taking into consideration Milan's current financial situation obviously, assume both have plenty of money, milan want to sell, and Real want to buy.)

The answer is obvious, and proves your theory to be incorrect. Just like Ronaldo would cost Real much more today, than it would of done just 3 seasons ago..

cekscrayons

Im not even sure If you know what you're arguing.

You have basically said that "there is no money left in football", and your reason is because the top Italian clubs don't have as much financial clout in the transfer market as they used to.

Italy still has 4 clubs that are in the top 12 richest clubs. Hardly as disaster anyway.

cekscrayons

The bubble has burst has it?

£45m for the best player in the world. Bit of a bargain considering Real would pay around £50m for Kaka, and closer to £70m for Ronaldo.

Oh but that bubble has burst.

MadDogg

A world class player reaching the peak of his powers will cost more than a potential world class youngster, and will be preferred by the supporters. Three seaons ago when Ronaldo was still mostly potential while Ronaldinho was at his peak, who do you think would've cost more? Or Kaka when he was young compared to now? Or Anderson, a potentially world class player, costing us 17m after add-ons while Gerrard would cost over 30?

There is the occasional rare player who is recognised as being world class (not just potentially, but already) at a very young age. Messi, Benzema, Fabregas all fit into this catergory, as did Rooney when we signed him. These players could still fall away, but they are at a level where it's considered highly unlikely and they are as close to a sure thing as is possible at that age. Messi, Benzema and Fabregas are probably the only players under 21 in football today in that bracket. Other than those sure-things, a proven top player coming into his best years will be more in demand than a youngster who may very well not live up to his potential.

devilish

Ah thats media talk. The bubble had burst long ago. Just compare the amount of money spent in the Liga and the Serie A during 2000 and 2001 to what is spent now.

cekscrayons

Thanks maddog, I was waiting for someone to come and explain that to devilish. The guy won't listen to me.