SAF on a striker: "But we do need experience." - Berbatov?

giggs-beckham · 27th May 2008, 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcus agrippa

nah, Berbatov, bar pace and workrate, is precisely the man for us.

Saha also dropped deep on occasion to instigate play. our forward line these days is about movement from all the front four; the reason we got rid of Ruud was he was too static compared to Saha.

Berbatov has also one of the most impressive pieces of hold-up play i've ever seen. he can bring the others into play, has the skill to retain possession and see a pass. his ability to pluck the ball up from the air with his feet is extraordinary.

i'm leery about getting him because of his attitude, though, but a striker with his characteristics (and a bit of pace) would be ideal.

Berbatov is pure technique and class, he isnt as slow as people think either. he reminds me of watching federer today he doesnt look as fast as nadal but his movement is effortless.
He would drop the attitude if he knew he was gonna play for saf/united aswell, berbatov i mean....not federer.

Wibble · 27th May 2008, 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcus agrippa

i watch Serie A religiously.

Seria A will drive you to religion or alcohol or drugs.

You need something to numb the boredom.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 27th May 2008, 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcus agrippa

nah, Berbatov, bar pace and workrate, is precisely the man for us.

Saha also dropped deep on occasion to instigate play. our forward line these days is about movement from all the front four; the reason we got rid of Ruud was he was too static compared to Saha.

Berbatov has also one of the most impressive pieces of hold-up play i've ever seen. he can bring the others into play, has the skill to retain possession and see a pass. his ability to pluck the ball up from the air with his feet is extraordinary.

i'm leery about getting him because of his attitude, though, but a striker with his characteristics (and a bit of pace) would be ideal.

Nail meets head

Classy Cannon · 27th May 2008, 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

He doesn't have the physical presence required. Period.

Villas got other qualities that more than make up for any lack of physical presence. He's got great balance, which combined with his speed gets him out of tight situations. His ability to get in the right place, at exactly the right moment, & his ultra-calm finishing, are just what we're missing in & around the box.

I'd rather have someone with pace to lead the line & force the opposition to defend deep, than someone better at holding the ball up, but who lacks pace.

Lizard King · 27th May 2008, 22:53

Vucinic is rubbish.

devilish · 27th May 2008, 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by giggs-beckham

What are you talking about how often do we play 4231? i said those 2 would be good in a 442, if were playing a 442 formation then that would still be a midfield 4 with 2 strikers upfront thats why its called a 442 and not a 4231.
you must be familliar with the formation weve played it quite alot over the years? it looks like this:

vds

brown ferdinand vidic evra

ronaldo scholes carrick nani

berbatov rooney

This is your one:

vds

brown ferdinand vidic evra

hargreaves carrick

ronaldo tevez rooney

berbatov
It wouldnt still be that cus we never play that formation.
Hope this helps.

Erm we used to play 4 - 4 - 2 during the treble with Scholes going forward and Giggs + Beckham as traditional type of wingers. We dont play like that anymore. Scholes play deep, while Ronaldo, Tevez and Giggs/Nani are played more forward (thats why Ronaldo score so many goals)

EspadaYdaga · 27th May 2008, 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by giggs-beckham

Berbatov is pure technique and class, he isnt as slow as people think either. he reminds me of watching federer today he doesnt look as fast as nadal but his movement is effortless.
He would drop the attitude if he knew he was gonna play for saf/united aswell, berbatov i mean....not federer.

federer would drop the attitude too

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 27th May 2008, 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Classy Cannon

Villas got other qualities that more than make up for any lack of physical presence. He's got great balance, which combined with his speed gets him out of tight situations. His ability to get in the right place, at exactly the right moment, & his ultra-calm finishing, are just what we're missing in & around the box. .

To lead the line at United strength and physical presence is required. It is key to our style. Villa lacks that. His other attributes will never compensate for lack of that. Ever. Thus he can't cut it for us. If we signed him he would have to play behind Rooney. And frankly both Tevez and Rooney are miles better link men than him. Villa is an excellent player. But he just isn't what we need. Sadly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Classy Cannon

'd rather have someone with pace to lead the line & force the opposition to defend deep, than someone better at holding the ball up, but who lacks pace.

Someone who holds up the ball and brings others into play like a class playmaker will always be much more valuable to us than a pace merchant with out physical presence. . Ruud was sold only because when his decent pace started to fade he was very one dimensional. Berbatov is as slow yet has the playmaking ability of a Riquelme. No defence would survive us with him conducting the runs of Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez/Nani. No matter how high they played.

giggs-beckham · 28th May 2008, 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by devilish

Erm we used to play 4 - 4 - 2 during the treble with Scholes going forward and Giggs + Beckham as traditional type of wingers. We dont play like that anymore. Scholes play deep, while Ronaldo, Tevez and Giggs/Nani are played more forward (thats why Ronaldo score so many goals)

Erm wrong we still play 442 sometimes, we played it against chelsea recently surely you remember. its a mobile an adaptable formation from us though as usual. but to say we havent played 442 since 99 is, even for you stretching the imagination.

Evra bombs forward alot aswell, but does that make our formation 3241? no if the team sheet sais 442 then its 442. although as ive said its never rigid with united and you will get players breaking formation at times. its total football and one of the reasons why were so good to watch.

Ekeke · 28th May 2008, 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lizard King

Vucinic is rubbish.

He has a bit of talent, but his record is poor.

Ekeke · 28th May 2008, 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

To lead the line at United strength and physical presence is required. It is key to our stlye. Villa lacks that. His other attributes will never compensate for lack of that. Ever. Thus he can't cut it for us. If we sigend him he woule have to play behind Rooney. And frankly both evez and Rooney are mle better link men than him. Villa is an excellent player. But he just isn't what we need. Sadly.

Torres has devised a way of doing it without strength. He simply puts his back to the player and falls over as soon as he's within a yard of him. That said, both Villa and Torres have strength when they need it and not dissimilar amounts.

Villa would be amazing for us.

Lizard King · 28th May 2008, 00:10

I agree and would personally sacrifice a testicle to see Villa sign for us.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 28th May 2008, 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekeke

Torres has devised a way of doing it without strength. He simply puts his back to the player and falls over as soon as he's within a yard of him. .

Are you for real?

This anti Torres routine of yours is getting really silly. He is far stronger than Villa. He has already proved it in the EPL already. Get over it.

"devised a way of doing it without strength."

i

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekeke

That said, both Villa and Torres have strength when they need it and not dissimilar amounts.

That's bollocks. Torres is the far stronger player of the two. It is clear for all to see. Except the blinkered land overly biased like you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekeke

Villa would be amazing for us.

He never will be. No matter how desperately you wish it to be true.

lao · 28th May 2008, 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lizard King

I agree and would personally sacrifice a testicle to see Villa sign for us.

For the love of United and your boyfriend I sincerely hope you'll get to keep your balls.

Ekeke · 28th May 2008, 01:58

David Villa Appreciation Thread

Classy Cannon · 29th May 2008, 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

To lead the line at United strength and physical presence is required. It is key to our style. Villa lacks that. His other attributes will never compensate for lack of that. Ever. Thus he can't cut it for us. If we signed him he would have to play behind Rooney. And frankly both Tevez and Rooney are miles better link men than him. Villa is an excellent player. But he just isn't what we need. Sadly.

Someone who holds up the ball and brings others into play like a class playmaker will always be much more valuable to us than a pace merchant with out physical presence. . Ruud was sold only because when his decent pace started to fade he was very one dimensional. Berbatov is as slow yet has the playmaking ability of a Riquelme. No defence would survive us with him conducting the runs of Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez/Nani. No matter how high they played.

I understand what you're saying & yes, Berbatov would be good at holding the ball up & playing in others, but he often takes up the same positions as Rooney does. I'd rather have a fast striker leading the line who naturally plays on the shoulder of the last defender, pulling the opposing defence back & opening up more space in front of them.

I just think Villa compliments the playing styles of the players we already have more than Berbatov would.

REd FUn DevIl · 29th May 2008, 21:26

Who is been editing Benzema profile.

Look at the pic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzema

Chris H · 29th May 2008, 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by REd FUn DevIl

Who is been editing Benzema profile.

Look at the pic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzema

That's quite good, nice find.

peterstorey · 29th May 2008, 21:59

Villa's not the ideal fit for you but would grace any team - he's a quick, intelligent, classy player.

starman · 29th May 2008, 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

To lead the line at United strength and physical presence is required. It is key to our style. Villa lacks that. His other attributes will never compensate for lack of that. Ever. Thus he can't cut it for us. If we signed him he would have to play behind Rooney. And frankly both Tevez and Rooney are miles better link men than him. Villa is an excellent player. But he just isn't what we need. Sadly.

No it's not, maybe for someone like Chelsea and Liverpool but not United. We generally play our football on the floor which last time I checked you don't need to be 6ft plus and built like a bull to do.
If you look at some of the great strikers of the past size is not a factor, take Gerd Müller, he was a tiny fellow and not very fast either but he knew where the goal was, Puskas, De Stefano and Pele were not over 6ft but then they all were clinical in front of goal and played in teams where football came first like it does at united.
So do we need a striker with a physical presents, no not necessarily, either way Manucho seems like he can handle himself if we were to require one.
I for one am a David Villa fan, technically he is brilliant and has a better scoring record then Torres all being is smaller and physically weaker, he does the donkey work by chasing down defenders, has a nice burst of pace and does the most important thing, he puts the ball in the net.

But having said that I am not too keen on having 4 out and out strikers, it's is really hard to keep them all happy.
I much prefer what we have now in Rooney, Tevez and Manucho with Ronaldo being able to play upfront, but were we to sign Villa I for one wont be complaining.

RedRover · 29th May 2008, 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Classy Cannon

Villas got other qualities that more than make up for any lack of physical presence. He's got great balance, which combined with his speed gets him out of tight situations. His ability to get in the right place, at exactly the right moment, & his ultra-calm finishing, are just what we're missing in & around the box.

I'd rather have someone with pace to lead the line & force the opposition to defend deep, than someone better at holding the ball up, but who lacks pace.

I'm not so sure. If you're going to play with anyone "leading the line" that player has to be up to holding the ball up to bring others into play. Berbatov does this for Spurs - he holds the ball up, comes deep and can make things happen.

While Villa is a very taleneted player he wont be able to do that job. His pace and balance are irrelevant unless you're aiming to put the ball over the top for him to run onto - and that simply isn't how we play.

RedRover · 29th May 2008, 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by starman

No it's not, maybe for someone like Chelsea and Liverpool but not United. We generally play our football on the floor which last time I checked you don't need to be 6ft plus and built like a bull to do.
If you look at some of the great strikers of the past size is not a factor, take Gerd Müller, he was a tiny fellow and not very fast either but he knew where the goal was, Puskas, De Stefano and Pele were not over 6ft but then they all were clinch in front of goal and played in teams where football came first like it does at united.
So do we need a striker with a physical presents, no not necessarily, either way Manucho seems like he can handle himself if we were to require one.I for one am a David Villa fan, technically he is brilliant and has a better scoring record then Torres all being is smaller and physically weaker, he does the donkey work by chasing down defenders, has a nice burst of pace and does the most important thing, he puts the ball in the net.

But having said that I am not too keen on having 4 out and out strikers, it's is really heard to keep them all happy.
I much prefer what we have now in Rooney, Tevez and Manucho with Ronaldo being able to play upfront, but were we to sign Villa I for one wont be complaining.

the problem is that none of the above forwards ever played for United. You're right that united play football on teh floor - but just because a forward is physical doesn't mean you have to play the ball route one.

Cantona, Sheringham and Sparky were all great leaders of teh line and physical with it - but they were all good with the ball at feet -Cantona especially.

Tevez and Rooney are the same =- great with the ball and physical as well.

As far as manuch goes - the lad has hardly kicked a ball at the top level so how do you know he's any good? Certainly not to be relied upon - and as for "keeping players happy" let wnyone who's moaning about not playing every week go and sign for Newcastle or the like - plenty of other players would take their place.

Classy Cannon · 29th May 2008, 22:59

Rooney would be dropped off Villa & would have more space in which to hold the ball up, due to the defence being unable to push up too far in fear of a ball in behind. When we go long we go wide, where there's more space & less chance of the ball coming straight back at you. Most of the holding work nowadays is done by our wingers, or mobile strikers pulling wide.

Pace isn't just valuable when it comes to the ball over the top. Villa is great at finding that little bit of space in & around the box that allows those on the ball to pick him out. We've got players all over the pitch that would pick him out time & time again.

Ekeke · 29th May 2008, 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedRover

I'm not so sure. If you're going to play with anyone "leading the line" that player has to be up to holding the ball up to bring others into play. Berbatov does this for Spurs - he holds the ball up, comes deep and can make things happen.

While Villa is a very taleneted player he wont be able to do that job. His pace and balance are irrelevant unless you're aiming to put the ball over the top for him to run onto - and that simply isn't how we play.

Option one : Carrick or Scholes have the ball on the half way line. They float the ball towards a big target man, he battles to try and win it and if he succeeds he can lay the ball off around the box to the likes of Rooney - playing where he is most dangerous on the edge of the box.

Option two : Carrick or Scholes have the ball on the half way line. They put the ball in behind the defence for a pacy striker. If the ball is perfect he runs on and scores. If the ball doesnt quite make it, the defence will just about manage to head the ball back out - to Rooney around the edge of the box once again. Having forced the defence backwards to cover the run of the pacy player, Rooney now has time and space to work his magic.

Both styles have their merits. Louis Saha tended to be Option two rather than Option one and he is the man we need to replace as he is no longer managing to fulfil his role. We also have Manucho who can provide the first option but still nobody who can provide the second.

Younited.7 · 29th May 2008, 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekeke

Option one : Carrick or Scholes have the ball on the half way line. They float the ball towards a big target man, he battles to try and win it and if he succeeds he can lay the ball off around the box to the likes of Rooney - playing where he is most dangerous on the edge of the box.

Option two : Carrick or Scholes have the ball on the half way line. They put the ball in behind the defence for a pacy striker. If the ball is perfect he runs on and scores. If the ball doesnt quite make it, the defence will just about manage to head the ball back out - to Rooney around the edge of the box once again. Having forced the defence backwards to cover the run of the pacy player, Rooney now has time and space to work his magic.

Both styles have their merits. Louis Saha tended to be Option two rather than Option one and he is the man we need to replace as he is no longer managing to fulfil his role. We also have Manucho who can provide the first option but still nobody who can provide the second.

You are simplifying the game, overly. There are so many possibilities. One for instance could be that Ronaldo makes the run and Berbatov nods it into the space, or Rooney makes the run, whatever. We have so much and will have even more attacking talent with so many different options.

I cannot see how Villa would mix-it-up or contribute massively to our build up play, we have players that can perform the same role Rooney and Tevez, albeit not totally effectively but still; we have lacked somebody who can win the ball in the air and use the ball well up-top.

Can Villa hack the speed and physicality? I dont know.

Can Berbatov? Yes.

27th May 2008, 22:53	#205 (permalink)
Lizard King Join Date: May 2007 Location: Anderson's hair Posts: 12,041	Vucinic is rubbish.

28th May 2008, 00:10	#212 (permalink)
Lizard King Join Date: May 2007 Location: Anderson's hair Posts: 12,041	I agree and would personally sacrifice a testicle to see Villa sign for us.

28th May 2008, 01:58	#215 (permalink)
Ekeke McFuckwit Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,694	David Villa Appreciation Thread

29th May 2008, 21:26	#217 (permalink)
REd FUn DevIl First Team Regular Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: I Love Sugarcult Posts: 12,030	Who is been editing Benzema profile. Look at the pic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzema

29th May 2008, 21:59	#219 (permalink)
peterstorey Winner of the 'Most pompous arrogant pretentious Gooner' title 2004 Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Happy those, who can remain at Highbury! Posts: 8,322	Villa's not the ideal fit for you but would grace any team - he's a quick, intelligent, classy player.

29th May 2008, 22:59	#223 (permalink)
Classy Cannon Left Back in the changing room Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,959	Rooney would be dropped off Villa & would have more space in which to hold the ball up, due to the defence being unable to push up too far in fear of a ball in behind. When we go long we go wide, where there's more space & less chance of the ball coming straight back at you. Most of the holding work nowadays is done by our wingers, or mobile strikers pulling wide. Pace isn't just valuable when it comes to the ball over the top. Villa is great at finding that little bit of space in & around the box that allows those on the ball to pick him out. We've got players all over the pitch that would pick him out time & time again.