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‘The best of the rest’...

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Rozay, Apr 15, 2019 at 14:00.

  1. Apr 15, 2019 at 14:00
    #1

    Rozay Master of Hindsight

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    How valid is this expression? Is it based on finances? Fan base? I’m not sure teams like Arsenal or Spurs can spend more than Wolves or Everton, which also happen to be ‘huge clubs’.

    Are some of the other teams in the league let off the hook by this implication that they can only compete for 7th? The financial playing field in the PL is as level as it’s ever been.
  2. Apr 15, 2019 at 14:07
    #2

    balaks Full Member

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    That may be true however I think the overall quality of the teams in the lower half of the table has become much worse over the past few years. It used to feel like there were no easy games in the Premiership but now the top 4/6 clubs generally steamroll through the rest with ease.
  3. Apr 15, 2019 at 14:39
    #3

    Chipper Full Member

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    I just thought it was about position in the table and there being a fairly well established top 6. Used to be top 4, now it's grown a bit. Everyone else is fighting to be the best of the rest.

    Is it valid? Well it's not set in stone. Leicester's title winning campaign wasn't that long ago and teams occasionally slip but by and large it's a recognisable pattern.

    Spurs have now finished in the top 6 9 years in a row, so have City, Arsenal's run is 23 years.

    Since Spurs and City started doing it, Liverpool have done it 5 out of the last 9, United and Chelsea 8. These three were of course part of the original 'top 4'. It's only Liverpool that have been somewhat dodgy in the past decade or so but 5 out 9 is still most of the time and like the others they're going to get it again this season.

    That's all I see it as anyway.

    This season will be the 3rd season in a row they've all got top 6 and gaps back to the rest have been/are comfortable:
    16/17 - 7th place Everton were 8 points behind 6th
    17/18 - 7th place Burnley were 9 points behind 6th
    Currently Leicester/Wolves are 16 points off

    These 6 are dominating the division right now.
  4. Apr 15, 2019 at 15:05
    #4

    Chipper Full Member

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    Now can anyone else compete with that lot, consistently break it up? We all know how City did it, reasonably unlikely to happen again to the exact same degree. Spurs doing it a bit more organically should give everyone else hope and nothing lasts forever.

    Wolves have a quite a bit of money, Everton, could in theory 'do a Spurs', as could teams like West Ham and Newcastle (owners permitting), or even teams like Villa and Leeds if/when they come up. Thinking fanbases for a lot of those, and what it could lead to if things went well. Not going to be easy though.
  5. Apr 16, 2019 at 07:23
    #5

    GuybrushThreepwood Full Member

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    It has been a case of the ‘empire strikes back’ since 2016.

    In 2015/2016 when we were seeing the miracle of all miracles through Leicester, while a repeat was certainly not expected anytime soon, a lot of managers, pundits etc thought that in the future teams would win titles with low points totals. It was thought that the league was becoming more even and competitive than ever, because of the increased spending power of the smaller clubs due to the bumper TV deal.

    Since then Chelsea won the title with 93 points in 2017 (the second highest total in the Premier League history) becoming the first team to win 30 league matches in the Premier League era and since 1979. Then City won the title in 2018 with a record 100 points, 32 wins, 16 away wins and 106 points. And this season both Liverpool and City could potentially surpass the 95 points accumulated by Mourinho’s Chelsea in 2004/2005.

    Currently in the Premier League there are 13 clubs that will inevitably be relegated at some point, whether it is next season, in 5 seasons time etc. None of them will beat ‘the cycle’. That’s why it’s important to enjoy the big time, any big victories over the top 6 clubs etc while they last.

    The other 7 clubs are the only ever presents in the league since 2011/2012. We’ll see how the current Wolves ownership structure pans out, but it is currently too early to judge there. City were another club facing eventual relegation before hitting the jackpot in 2008. Everton are a funny one has they have been in the top flight continuously for 65 years and haven’t really faced any serious relegation danger since 2003/2004, largely thanks to the work that Moyes did. Before then I think they had 2 final day relegation escapes in 1994 and 1998, and were one point above the bottom 3 when Moyes replaced Walter Smith during the home stretch of 2001/2002. A few bad decisions and maybe they will have to worry about relegation in the future though.
  6. Apr 16, 2019 at 08:26
    #6

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    It really isn't. Your contention is everyone starting at zero, ergo not factoring the squads already in place and the supplemental additions for the top teams vs the wholesale changes the smaller clubs have to make for that zero to be in place. By scale, they would start off well in the minus and have to work up to the zero for the playing field to be equal.

    Financially, they are always playing catch up in this regard, not forgetting any top talent they have getting taken from them immediately and thus knocking those building blocks down to near zero once again.
  7. Apr 16, 2019 at 08:41
    #7

    2 man midfield Incestuous Modern Woman (Dumper!)

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    Forget the top 6, I think Spurs are the best of the rest tbh. There’s a massive gulf in class after City and Liverpool, and a bigger points gap between Spurs and the top than there is between 6th and 7th.
  8. Apr 16, 2019 at 08:47
    #8

    coolredwine lameredboots

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    Everton really spends a lot each season for it to be languishing in and around the 10th position.
  9. Apr 16, 2019 at 08:49
    #9

    ivaldo Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?

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    I'm not so sure of that. Look at a team like relegated Fulham and the quality of players they have at their disposal. Let's not forget posters here wanted us to sign Sessegnon and Seri not so long ago. Then look at the quality available to the teams placed 7th to 10th. To me the league as a whole has improved. Previously it was a top 2/3, then 4 and now it's reasonable to call it a top 6. Before the majority of those teams belonged to the 'mid-table' bracket. We have top class talent guaranteed to miss out on Champions League football every season now.
  10. Apr 16, 2019 at 09:00
    #10

    redshaw Full Member

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    Tough at the moment but I can see a couple of the top six losing their status over the next 5 years.

    Reminds me of Formula 1 for the past few years with the same top 6, 2 drivers for 3 teams and the rest can't bridge the gap.
  11. Apr 16, 2019 at 09:03
    #11

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    For now maybe but it won't stay like this forever (or for long time). Other teams have finances and with smart signings, they can break into top 6. It was big 4 previously which became big 6. Everton, Wolves and even Watford have potential to break into top 6.
  12. Apr 16, 2019 at 09:05
    #12

    giorno Full Member

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    Which really tells you everything about how much caftards know about football :D

    I look at the quality available to teams placed 7th to 10th and i don't see anything different from what it's been for the past 15 years tbh. The only difference is now those PL clubs overpay for those players instead of getting them relatively cheap

    As for the topic: look at the wage bills. The financial playing field was never this skewed
  13. Apr 16, 2019 at 09:07
    #13

    giorno Full Member

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    Only way they can do it atm is Tottenham's, and that involves a number of external factors lining up and giving them the opportunity. Also, much harder to break into a top 6 than a top 4

    The best option remains new megarich owners
  14. Apr 16, 2019 at 09:30
    #14

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Spurs broke into top 4 and for few years Liverpool, Chelsea, ManUtd, Arsenal are out of it. The initial top 4 teams. Dont think anyone thought they will be regular Top 4 team.

    Btw yeah, they need lot of things going in their way, now with big TV money, if clubs do smart investment they can.
  15. Apr 16, 2019 at 09:55
    #15

    Njord Full Member

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    Don't think the quality of players in the bottom half have decreased, but that tactics for the top teams have evolved to be more dominant against teams that sit back.

    The combination of high press and dominating possesion is very well suited against smaller teams, and they haven't quite figured out a way to counter it with lesser players.
  16. Apr 16, 2019 at 10:02
    #16

    ivaldo Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?

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    Look at the team Everton had prior to Moyes joining us. The likes of Hibbert, Gibson, Anichebe etc were regulars. They'd get nowhere near this Everton side now. Have a look at the West Brom side that finished 8th that season compared to the talent available to Wolves, the team that currently sit in 8th place. Those teams are significantly more talented.
  17. Apr 16, 2019 at 11:53
    #17

    Rozay Master of Hindsight

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    My point was I think it was being said quite early on this season that teams were battling for 7th. I think there is a group of teams, and specifically managers, that are let off a bit by that. If you’re going to spend £120m in the summer, you should perhaps set your stall out at the beginning of the season to say ‘we are fighting for Europe’.

    Everton’s front two cost £50m each, their goalkeeper was the most expensive in the league for a while, and the likes of Zouma, Gomes and Digne could play for most teams in the league. Gueye is being chased by PSG. What I mean is, if they finish behind Arsenal, can they say ‘fair enough, that’s the best we could do’, or should they be disappointed?

    On paper, I don’t think Everton’s XI is worse than Arsenal’s. Both have stronger areas than each other. But Zouma, Gueye, Digne, Gomes and Sigurdsson could probably feel they could get in the Arsenal XI, and Richarlison would argue that he could be in the mix too.
  18. Apr 16, 2019 at 12:35
    #18

    devlinadl New Member

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    Spurs have the lowest turnover of the top six, but it is still twice the turnover of the likes of Everton (£380m vs £189m).
  19. Apr 16, 2019 at 12:36
    #19

    giorno Full Member

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    Have a look at the burnley side that finished 7th last season

    I'm looking at the current everton side and i don't see anything special. So moyes was overachieving with them, cool. They're still a team made up of bang average players at best, with a couple exceptions. No different from the newcastle sides of pardew of a few years ago
  20. Apr 16, 2019 at 12:41
    #20

    ivaldo Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?

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    That Burnley team is an outlier. Average teams have good seasons. You look at all those teams currently occupying those positions and it's a significant improvement on what we've had there in the past. I really can't see how you can say that about Everton. It's night and day from where they were 5/6 years ago.
  21. Apr 16, 2019 at 12:51
    #21

    giorno Full Member

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    Arsenal's wage bill is bigger than everton's revenue. Everton finishing above arsenal would be an incredible result
  22. Apr 16, 2019 at 12:59
    #22

    giorno Full Member

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    And WBA wasn't?

    Everton 13/14 howard, coleman, stones, jagielka, baines, barry, barkley, mirallas, lukaku. And you're saying they're better now? :confused::confused::confused:
  23. Apr 16, 2019 at 13:09
    #23

    ivaldo Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?

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    No, not really. That was a season in which Norwich finished 11th and Swansea 9th. That's comparing it to the Wolves, Everton and West Ham.

    You're two players short. And let's not forget thats a 20 year old Barkley and a 20 year old Lukaku you're including there, and two of those players Everton didn't even own. What about the teams around them?
  24. Apr 16, 2019 at 13:35
    #24

    Rozay Master of Hindsight

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    Perhaps, but they do sign players for similar fees. And Arsenal are a more famous club and have bigger revenue, however, I suspect that Everton have unaccounted investment from rich owners, whereas Arsenal don’t.

    Arsenal, for me, regularly start players who could easily be in the Everton team. The likes of Iwobi, all of their central midfielders and Monreal, Mustafi could easily be Everton players for me.
  25. Apr 16, 2019 at 14:35
    #25

    giorno Full Member

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    And wolves, everton and west ham have significantly better players?

    They were 20 and also significantly better than anything they have right now

    Yeah, they are forced to pay similar fees for signicantly inferior players than the ones arsenal sign, because the players arsenal signs won't sign for everton if they can sign for arsenal

    Perhaps. But unless the owners step in, everton cannot compete with arsenal financially. Not even close

    That's because players are a finite resource. There are only so many elite ones around