3-4-3 - is this the future?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Adam-Utd, Mar 20, 2012.

  1. Mar 20, 2012
    #1

    Adam-Utd Full Member

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    We seem to be seeing alot more teams, especially in italy, using this formation (roma and napoli come to mind) and i cant help but feel that with 4-4-2 in europe seeming a bit stale, this may be the ideal formation for us in the future.

    3-4-3 is a very fluid formation, which can work well with both attacking and defending, and i just feel that with the players in our arsenal we could implement very well.

    In the future i would love to see something similar to this.

    ddg


    jones smalling evans

    valencia carrick scholes young

    nani rooney welbeck




    We have alot of energy upfront, which would no doubt adapt to the high pressing game needed for this formation, and also have hard working wingers
    who are not scared of defending too.

    Our 3 cbs are decent with the ball, and 1 of them can easily carry the ball into midfield to start of attacks, alot like javi martinez did against us earlier this month.

    You might say, well isnt 3 defenders at the back a bit risky?. Well not really.

    In defensive situations it more reverts to a 5 man defense, with plenty of cover from wide central situations.

    I personally feel this is the ideal formation to bring the new man utd team into, what say you caftards?
  2. Mar 20, 2012
    #2

    Big-Red Killed CurveFever.

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    Rafael and Fabio...

    Looking at it, I think the "wingers" in the midfield 4 need to be more defense based but attacking. Valencia is capable of it sure, but I wonder about Young. That's were I'd have the twins if possible. With Nani and Welbeck either side of Rooney.
  3. Mar 20, 2012
    #3

    misterredmist Full Member

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    I am not sure it is something teams would look specifically to line up as, rather a system devised by the coach to suit the players at his disposal, so Napoli may have exclusivity on it.
  4. Mar 20, 2012
    #4

    Aboutreika18 Full Member

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    Pretty much. In Napoli's case it masks the defensive deficiencies of Campagnaro and Aronica and brings the best out of the likes of Maggio.

    And when have Roma regularly played a back three/five?

    While Valencia could potentially make a good wing-back, Young would be better suited as part of the forward three.
  5. Mar 20, 2012
    #5

    NoLogo Full Member

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    Well it's big tactical debate atm if 3-4-3 is the future of football.

    Considering that most teams these days play with only 1 real striker it seams to be save to play one less defender as was common against the two striker formations.

    Pep for example is convinced that the key to dominating games in the future will be the midfield so putting as many players int the middle part of the pitch makes sense.

    In fact when Barca played the club world cup this year their formation sometimes fielded up to 6 midfielders.

    If you are going to play pressing with a high defensive line and want to play a very possession orientated game it makes sense to overload the midfield.

    The only thing that I'm not convinced of is the defensive stability against teams that play very wide and fast like Valencia showcased very nicely when they meat Barca in the first half of this season.

    So yes if you have the right players for this tactic that are comfortable at the ball, have a great work rate, defend and attack it can be very effective but if you don't have these players I think it's hard to pull off.
  6. Mar 20, 2012
    #6

    AttackingFlair Full Member

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    Judging from that line up you posted, we clearly don't have the players for it, so not ideal at all.
  7. Mar 20, 2012
    #7

    Adam-Utd Full Member

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    lol right ok, so for all you with a narrowminded approach, we can make adjustments to the squad if necessary.

    I personally think this team would work fine, perhaps with fabio taking youngs place if necessary.

    Ive just been personally impressed with how this formation works, especially with the forward pressing on opposition defenses.
  8. Mar 20, 2012
    #8

    golden_blunder mijn naam is Golden Blunder en ik hou van team LVG

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    tactics smactics

    lets get our 11 best players fit first, then see how we can get them all in the same team consistently
  9. Mar 20, 2012
    #9

    stubie Full Member

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    Not a fan of this formation

    AC Milan tried it in the late 90's but their defence was always exposed.
  10. Mar 20, 2012
    #10

    Pexbo Takes body parts and sells them on Amazon.

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    Total Football is the future, how many numbers per "-" is irrelevant.

    Midfielders that cover in defence, defence that moves into midfield, fullback that come centrally to cover, midfielders that drop deep into midfield and midfielders who can push the shoulder of the last man.

    A team of technically gifted players who can and do play multiple positions per game and are not restricted by "Positions".

    It's what Barcelona are striving for.
  11. Mar 20, 2012
    #11

    ben_foster On Loan to Watford

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    like all formations it has it merits.

    however the lineup the OP has selected creates more problems than it solves.

    1.) How would that team cope agains a 4-5-1 / 4-3-3? They would be outnumbered in midfield have three centre halves marking one centre forward and with no full backs it would be left to valencia and young to mark there two wingers thus nullifying there threat.

    2.) Using Scholes and future in the same thread is silly

    3.) The last thing i want to see is danny wellbeck or javier hernandez in wide positions.

    4.) Who would pick up the guy who plays in the hole? The centre half or midfielder??

    Lets look at theat team against real madrid:-

    You would have valencia picking up ronaldo. young picking up di maria. the back three picking up benzema. total confusion between carrick scholes smalling and jones as to who picks up kaka/ozil.

    As ive said, it has its pro's but has far more cons. i would imagine it a very very very easy formation to dominate especially against a 433 whereby you would be outnumbered or man for man in every department .

    Personally i dont think a good 442 will ever be beaten. A silk and steel centre half combination. Two quick full backs who bit into tackles and also attack well. Two wingers that getup and down all day long. A qauter back style "dm" in combination with and all round high energy midfielder. a lad who plays in the hole, can drop off and create as well as contributing goals alongside a striker be that a poacher/runner like hernandez, a big strong quick powerful lad like saha or welbeck, or a typical old all round centre forward like ruud/shearer/torres/drogba
  12. Mar 20, 2012
    #12

    red2deadboy Banned

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    ddg
    jones smalling hummels
    valencia martinez cleverly young
    nani rooney gotze

    might just work :devil:
  13. Mar 20, 2012
    #13

    AttackingFlair Full Member

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    Shouldn't you play that formation to add more midfielders? What's the point if you're just going to have Carrick and Scholes and put in as many forwards as you can?
  14. Mar 20, 2012
    #14

    ben_foster On Loan to Watford

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    also nani and valencia both playing wide right??? whilst it would mean outnumbering a full back in a flat back 4 they would surley get in each others way. a winger gets past his fullback and delivers. the y like one vs one. the last thing they want is another winger stuck in the way
  15. Mar 20, 2012
    #15

    adexkola American Arse

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    Total football was the past
  16. Mar 20, 2012
    #16

    Gio Full Member

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    Not very well I suspect.
  17. Mar 20, 2012
    #17

    Pexbo Takes body parts and sells them on Amazon.

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    Not at all. "Total Football" is a philosophy still very relevant today.

    The trouble with it as a philosophy is that it is very difficult to implement effectively as it requires the team to be on exactly the same wave length and pretty much to have grown up playing it.

    A manager coming in and trying to teach it to Everton, for example, wouldn't get very far. Barcelona on the other hand have had it instilled in them from Academy age since Cruyff brought it to them in the late 80's early 90's. It's called "Tiki Taka" now but it's just Total Football's natural evolution.

    But like I said, it's not just a tactic you can decide to start getting your players playing. United made a big move towards is back in the early 00's when we brought René Meulensteen in to train our academy. I don't think it was a coincidence that he was promoted to Reserve level while that crop of academy players were being brought through either and it's very evident in Cleverley and Welbeck's play.
  18. Mar 20, 2012
    #18

    Ralaks Full Member

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    I've always thought we could pull off a 3 man backline with the twins as wing backs very well actually, shame it's out of fashion these days.

    DDG

    Smalling-Jones-Evans
    Rafael --------------------------- Fabio
    Carrick-Scholes

    Nani-Rooney-Welbeck

    Jones would sort of act like a modern day sweeper, taking the ball out of defense, occasionally playing further up etc. Can easily become a 4-3-3/4-5-1 etc.

    Will obviously never happen, but I like the look of that line up tbh. Very young too apart from central midfield, throw someone like Martinez or whatever in there and it still looks good.
  19. Mar 20, 2012
    #19

    Brwned Have you ever been in love before?

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    343 forces all of our attackers out of position except maybe Valencia, so it'd be a bit silly for us to start playing it. Might work in FIFA 12 though.
  20. Mar 20, 2012
    #20

    kps88 Full Member

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    The twins would probably break into 2 if you asked them to play as wing backs. A lot more work and running involved. Valencia would be ideally suited to it.
  21. Mar 20, 2012
    #21

    UnofficialDevil Anti Scottish

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    Thats not new is it? Teams in Italy have been playing that for ever. Three center backs and two wing backs.
  22. Mar 20, 2012
    #22

    rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks

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    Basically came to write that.
  23. Mar 20, 2012
    #23

    Crustanoid Full Member

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    The middle centre back should be a DM who drops back when defending and can come forward with the ball to add another body in midfield
  24. Mar 20, 2012
    #24

    Ralaks Full Member

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    I don't watch much Italian footie anymore really, but I think Napoli plays close to this.

    A role tailored for Jones imo. Best we have at the club for that for that.
  25. Mar 20, 2012
    #25

    NoLogo Full Member

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    Well 3 defenders is actually pretty old. I can remember that the 3-5-2 was still the most dominant system in Germany in the early 90s only gradually teams shifted to four at the back and 4-4-2 became the standard until the beginning of the next millennium where another shift towards the 4-2-3-1 occurred.

    With more and more teams shifting towards a 5 man midfield and only one striker it makes sense to shift one of your defenders into the midfield again to regain the advantage the 4-5-1/4-2-3-1 formation once offered over the the 4-4-2 formation.

    So basically something like Barca played at the club world cup which with our players could look like this:

    De Gea
    Smalling---Vidic---Evans
    Jones
    Carrick--Cleverly
    Valencia--Rooney--Nani
    Welbeck

    If need be Jones can fall back into center next to Vidic and help covering if they try to exploit the middle when Smalling and Evans have to defend players out wide.
  26. Mar 20, 2012
    #26

    Adam-Utd Full Member

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    This is exactly the point i was trying to show, jones / smalling / evans are all equally comfortable with the ball, and with licence can move into midfield while the other 2 defenders are covering.

    Teams when attacking dont need anymore than 2 players sitting back, and if you do lose the ball you hunt and press the opposition ASAP higher up the field.

    Yes there is always a risk with getting caught on the counter attack, but teams like barca / bilbao show that if done correctly the strengths far outway the weaknesses.

    Alot of you in this thread are just looking at a team on paper and just saying "na wont work". There is no reason this could not work if taught properly.

    Rooney could still have a roaming free role, welbeck and nani can work the channels ala pedro / villa at barca.

    We would still control the midfield with carrick / scholes and jones backing them up.
  27. Mar 20, 2012
    #27

    Transfer United Till I Die I am totally in the know, honest

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    Terrible formation. It won't ever happen at united. Too much depends on the wing backs.
  28. Mar 20, 2012
    #28

    Adam-Utd Full Member

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    You were not saying that when bilbao battered us to pieces :lol:
  29. Mar 20, 2012
    #29

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    3-1-3-3 is the formation of the future. Just watch Bilbao..:D


    yeah yeah I know they play 4-3-3 but Martinez pushed into midfield so much had to cheat
  30. Mar 20, 2012
    #30

    adexkola American Arse

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    Our strength has always been counter attacking. We're not gonna throw that away because of 2 defeats to Bilbao (who are a very good team). They wouldn't have beat the 2008 team.
  31. Mar 20, 2012
    #31

    Red Devil 26 Premature Examination

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    Maybe in the future if his reading of the game and positional discipline improves. Right now he'd be a liability there. Especially in that formation, where a lot of responsibility is heaped on the DM. Reckon Carrick's the best fit for that particular role atm.
  32. Mar 20, 2012
    #32

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    We used to be a possession keeping team that was devastating on the counter. That was the strength of the 1999 side. I'd love that back.
  33. Mar 20, 2012
    #33

    Snow Somewhere down the lane, a licky boom boom down

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    It seems to make a bit of sense in a nutshell this tactic. Full backs have increasingly more important but they are, as a collective, not the best defenders. So players like Evra act like wing backs instead. It's not just a plain 3-4-3 but more of a 3-5-2. Hamsik for Napoli isn't a striker or playing behind the forward.
    Barcelona essentially play like this as well sometimes when Alves is on the the right more up top. Of course they do it in their own way.

    I'm not going to say it's a better tactic than an other one. So far it doesn't have a lot of winners so I don't see why it's the future. And what does that even mean. Teams change and revert back all the time.
  34. Mar 20, 2012
    #34

    pocco loco

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    Funnily enough I think people would counter a 3-4-3 with a 4-4-2. Can't see us ever going with 3 CB's and one Striker. We'd end up with a 'Ji-Sung Park' on each side of the 4 in midfield.
  35. Mar 20, 2012
    #35

    Adam-Utd Full Member

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    ? valencia proved he can play RB and still support the forward line.

    Modern footballers are alot fitter these days, people like rafael will get up and down the flanks all day no problem.

    Im amazed how many of you are just disregarding it with no real explaination?.
  36. Mar 20, 2012
    #36

    pocco loco

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    Here's my thinking...4-4-2 vs. 3-4-3

    So 3-4-3 are playing three up top, presumably in the way many teams already play. There is no real advantage gained up top with the 3-4-3. Unless you have Messi in your team.

    In midfield we have a 4 against a 4, but with one team having full backs that can overlap and provide cover for the wingers, on the other team we have wingers with no back up and susceptible to 2-on-1 situations. The 3-4-3 could potentially double up on the 4-4-2's full back but the winger would track back anyway. The 3-4-3 would be highly open to the counter attack down the wing.

    At the back the 3 man central defence has to defend narrow and hope that the winger/wing back doesnt get caught out of position or they are in trouble from out wide. Highly susceptible to crosses and the 4-4-2's wingers and fullbacks overlapping and having a free run into the penalty area.

    Too many ways to exploit it in my opinion.
  37. Mar 20, 2012
    #37

    Cling Bak Hi, I'm Barry Scott

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    Neuer
    Pepe Pique T.Silva
    Lahm Xavi Iniesta Bale
    Messi Ronaldo Robben​

    Is better. We should just play that.
  38. Mar 20, 2012
    #38

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    3-1-3-3

    ----------De Gea--------

    --Jones---Smalling/Evans--Evra

    -----------Martinez----------

    Cleverley-- Goetze-- Anderson---

    -Valencia-- Rooney--- Nani-----

    #NeverGonnaHappen
  39. Mar 20, 2012
    #39

    Plan M Banned

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    Look how Inter fared with the 3-4-3 formation at the beginning of the season. It ended with the manager getting sacked.

    I like 4 at the back - 2 centre backs and a lb/rb who can both attack and defend. I'm a big lover of the 4-3-3 formation and I do agree, 4-4-2 at the highest level is dead (in Europe and Internation football anyway)
  40. Mar 20, 2012
    #40

    Stack Leave Pep Guardiola alone!!!

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    The formation isnt the tactics. The obsession with formations is something thats the domain of fans who have never played to any decent level and the playstation/championship manager enthusiast.

    Tactics are more about whether your team is a counter attacking team, a deep defending team, a high pressing team, a width using team, a team the defends by pushing opposition players wide or pushes them inside, its about whether you switch the ball often or use long balls or short passing.

    Any formation can be used to fit any of the playing styles and tactics, it all depends on the player roles for any given situation. A team set out as 3 4 3 can be a counter attacking team, it can be a team that uses a lot of width, it can be a team that plays very narrow, it can be a team that presses very high. The same goes for any of the myriad of formations used as the basic setup of a team.

    Tactical discussions on here are limited to the numbers on a football pitch but never to the actual playing model of teams, the playing model is the true tactical discussion.

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