442

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by charlenefan, Mar 7, 2018.

  1. Mar 7, 2018
    #1

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    15,802
    Another formation thread but 442 is having a revival in European football, Leicester won't a league playing it, Real Madrid are playing it, Barcelona are playing it, Juventus in the second half tonight, Fergie would be in his element if he was still in charge. Could it be something we take on?

    ---------------De Gea---------------
    Valencia--Bailly--Smalling--New LB
    Lingard--New CM--Matic--Pogba
    --------Lukaku------Sanchez--------

    What do you think CAF?
  2. Mar 7, 2018
    #2

    SportingCP96 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,269
    Supports:
    Sporting Clube de Portugal
    I would put Rashford up front with Lukaku . I would not have Pogba in the LM position he would be worthless there I would play him at the CM position next to Matic. Then probably need two real "wingers" to play at the LM and RM position. I would also sign Alex Telles for the LB position.
  3. Mar 7, 2018
    #3

    Oscar.Z.Acosta Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,133
    Location:
    Mexico via west London.
    You should see what happened when Juventus switched to 4-4-2 around 60 minutes into their game against Tottenham tonight. The Spurs players suddenly looked like they were playing an alien species!

    But, formations are wildly overrated by a generation brought up on football management games. The best formation is always the one that suits the players to be effective as a team and win games. Always has done and always will do.
  4. Mar 7, 2018
    #4

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    15,802
    Ignoring your passive aggressive hipster response do you think 442 would suit our players as that was kind of the point of my post
  5. Mar 7, 2018
    #5

    YouOnlyLiveTwice Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Messages:
    4,869
    Don't think we have the wingers for it. Lingard would not be efficient on the right.
  6. Mar 7, 2018
    #6

    HankHill New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Messages:
    262
    Location:
    England
    Supports:
    Ewe Night Tid.
    A formation is never truly en vogue until Wenger copies it poorly six months after everyone else.

    Let's see how this pans out.
  7. Mar 7, 2018
    #7

    xMaravilla New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2015
    Messages:
    17
    Supports:
    Belgium
    Every formation with two strikers is dangerous in my opinion. With Lukaku on the right and Rashford/Martial on the left, we could beat anyone!!
  8. Mar 7, 2018
    #8

    Oaencha Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2014
    Messages:
    2,010
    We have no natural wingers and no-one who can cross the ball so I can’t see the point. Especially seeing as you have Pogba and Lingard on the flanks as the example.
  9. Mar 7, 2018
    #9

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    15,802
    Madrid and Barca have no wingers when they play it
  10. Mar 7, 2018
    #10

    SportingCP96 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,269
    Supports:
    Sporting Clube de Portugal
    Pogba on the left and Lingard on the right is a disaster waiting to happen.
  11. Mar 7, 2018
    #11

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    15,802
    Why?
  12. Mar 7, 2018
    #12

    coolredwine lameredboots

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    15,563
    Location:
    Je m'en fous!
    For us, now, maybe. Pogba can be an inside left, with Sanchez-Shaw providing width if and when needed.
  13. Mar 7, 2018
    #13

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    15,802
    Is how I see it working, it would be a narrow midfield yes with Pogba and Lingard and we'd need the width from Valencia and a LB (Sandro) and maybe even have Sanchez pulling wide left and Lukaku pulling onto the right as both do already
  14. Mar 7, 2018
    #14

    Giant Midget Aka - rooney_10119

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2008
    Messages:
    3,762
    That’s not entirely different than the 4-2-2-2 we played against Chelsea
  15. Mar 7, 2018
    #15

    Oscar.Z.Acosta Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,133
    Location:
    Mexico via west London.
    It’s an observation from a middle-aged human that’s watched football for over 40 years, not a ‘passive-aggressive hipster response’.

    Don’t be insecure if you wish to instigate discussions on public forums (because, maybe, just maybe, there’ll be some people that will not agree with your premises about anything and everything, so be respectful and consider all views before making any considered judgements), but, you did ask a question, so my meaningless thoughts are:

    We don’t have one proper winger at United so can’t play a 4-4-2 as I would see it (narrow diamond could work, but I don’t see it).
    We don’t really have any natural wide forwards either (I think Sánchez is the nearest but he’s someone that likes to come into more central positions), so I’m not sure 4-3-3 suits our attacking players as well as it could.

    Our real problem (apart from the defence, especially full-backs) is how slowly we move the ball forward in general play and the confidence in making off-the-ball runs and the belief we have players that can make incisive passes under pressure (unless we’re counter-attacking or hoofing it aimlessly).

    Mourinho is too risk-averse to let the players express themselves freely and that’s a far bigger problem than any formation, in my view (see how Allegri had Pogba playing in his last season at Juventus).

    However, the better players we get, I promise you the better the formation will look...it’s always been that way. Formations come and go - good players will play well as long as the team is balanced. That’s where we need United to get to (I think we’re still 3/4 very good players away from challenging the best teams in Europe, but that’s another discussion for another time).
  16. Mar 7, 2018
    #16

    SportingCP96 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,269
    Supports:
    Sporting Clube de Portugal
    If you want to get the best out of your players Pogba and Matic at the CM position is your best option you then need to sign 2 true Right and left wing players along with a solid LB ( Ales Telles would fit like a glove). Givin the players in the current squad the 2 strikers in the team should be Rasford and Lukaku.
  17. Mar 7, 2018
    #17

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    15,802
    This season has proved Matic and Pogba alone in midfield doesn't work
  18. Mar 7, 2018
    #18

    SportingCP96 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,269
    Supports:
    Sporting Clube de Portugal
    if you are doing a 442 Pogba gas to play at CM he is too good to be waisted out wide despite how average his season has been.
  19. Mar 7, 2018
    #19

    Drz Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    668
    You beat me to it.

    But:
    ---------------De Gea---------------
    Valencia--Bailly--Rojo-- Shaw
    Lingard--Pogba--Matic--Martial
    --------Lukaku------Rashford--------
  20. Mar 7, 2018
    #20

    Seven Seas Sardines Full Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,438
    Location:
    Buenos Aires
    Diamond would be the obvious way to go to get the most out of our players. Would need Lukaku and Martial to work hard and occasionally drift out wide to help out and to give Sanchez space in the middle.

    De Gea
    Valencia Bailly Smalling Shaw
    Matic
    McTominay Pogba
    Sanchez
    Lukaku Martial​
  21. Mar 7, 2018
    #21

    Eddy_JukeZ Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2012
    Messages:
    7,666
    I don't think Lingard is as good out wide.

    And I don't know if I'd prefer Pogba out wide either. I think his poor defensive work at times could be even more exploited from wide areas.

    It does play Sanchez in his best position though.
  22. Mar 7, 2018
    #22

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    15,802
    Wasted out wide? I'd argue it'll give him the freedom he craves
  23. Mar 7, 2018
    #23

    SportingCP96 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,269
    Supports:
    Sporting Clube de Portugal
    His best years at Juve were all at CM.
  24. Mar 7, 2018
    #24

    Android1974 Incredibly anal about player positions in lineups City Lover

    Joined:
    May 24, 2016
    Messages:
    8,132
    It's funny, beginning of pre-season, when Mourinho was apparently chasing Griezmann, I've mentioned a few times it would only make sense in a 4-4-2, but people were dismissing it completely then.
  25. Mar 7, 2018
    #25

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    14,950
    Location:
    Birmingham
    If Mourinho bought Griezmann, we'd continue to play a 4231, with Griezmann as a 10, where he plays for France.
  26. Mar 7, 2018
    #26

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    14,950
    Location:
    Birmingham
    I'd very much to see that, with a few upgrades.

    Right midfield - With Pogba coming in off the wing, then we'd need a play on the right to keep the width. Someone like Valencia (2010) or Nani.

    Centre midfield - All action midfielder. Someone in the mould of Vidal, Nainggolan, Matuidi, etc.
  27. Mar 7, 2018
    #27

    Android1974 Incredibly anal about player positions in lineups City Lover

    Joined:
    May 24, 2016
    Messages:
    8,132
    Or a rightwing wide-forward. Considering our other personnel, he would've fit much better than Sánchez.
  28. Mar 7, 2018
    #28

    Jib Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    906
    He never played in a midfield 2 with Juventus...

    And his best season at Juventus was 2015-2016 and he was more a LM than a CM...

  29. Mar 7, 2018
    #29

    SportingCP96 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,269
    Supports:
    Sporting Clube de Portugal
    It was midfield 3 with asamoah playing on the left side to be exact.
  30. Mar 7, 2018
    #30

    Jib Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    906
    It was false 352, very different of the Conte's 352.

    In his best season at Juve ( 2015-2016 ) Pogba played with 2 CM behind him ( Marchisio/Khedira or Hernanes/Lemina ) and 2 strikers in front of him ( Manzukic/Dybala or Morata/Zaza )

    Asamoah was on the bench when he was fit because Evra/Sandro were better than him... and Cuadrado played on the right wing ( sometimes Lichtsteiner ).

    Pogba was really free, he played in an unique role ( mix of LM/AM ) and Roberto Peyrera was his backup...

    And the second system was the 442 with Pogba as true LM

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  31. Mar 7, 2018
    #31

    SS Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,586
    Barely any different to a 433. Pogba would come inside more often than not and Lingard would push forward to link up with Lukaku and Sanchez, instead of sticking to the right wing.
  32. Mar 7, 2018
    #32

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    15,802
    Maybe take some advice yourself and try to be just a tiny bit less patronizing when speaking to others
  33. Mar 7, 2018
    #33

    Rifer Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2017
    Messages:
    2,306
    Location:
    Fergie Times
    A variation of this is the 4-2-2-2, and defensive 4-4-2 with 2 CDM.

    If just purely flat 4-4-2,
    EPL imo is a no go, but CL games can be effective against some sides. Could be a useful formation with the right settings i.e. systematic roles for each player.

    A big problem is for me we don't have the right combination of good form and available players for an effective starting 11 for this formation.
    (Lingard and Sanchez tend to cut in and play narrow where they could make best damage. Lingard is not impressive as a side midfielder. For the side, only 3 players are on paper are suitable; Pogba, Mata and Rashford. The option is very limited. Martial is similar a bit to Ronaldo here, eventhough he improves his defending, Martial is a far better LW or LAM than an LM. The fullbacks are very important here, as they need to overlap and stretch the wings always, which we doesn't have much option. Pogba works best with a natural attacking LB so Shaw in this case. Problem would be having our LB exposed defensively on the left. Mata and Valencia is fine on the right. Herrera and Matic combo on the centre should work. Defensively especially the side would be more exposed, so need two excellent on form CBs that can sweep left and right, Bailly to cover Valencia, and Rojo to cover Shaw. Sanchez would attack the left and drop deep behind Lukaku like what Rooney often do playing with RVN/Saha. Lukaku would attack both centrally and the RW and be the target man.)

    Probably a better version than those:

    ---------------De Gea--------------
    Valencia---Bailly---Rojo---Shaw-
    Mata---Herrera---Matic---Pogba
    --------Lukaku-----Sanchez-----

    Subs: Romero, CB??, Young, CM??, SM??, Rashford, Martial.
  34. Mar 7, 2018
    #34

    SportingCP96 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,269
    Supports:
    Sporting Clube de Portugal
    I got it confused with the 2014-2015 season my apologies mate.
  35. Mar 7, 2018
    #35

    Bwuk Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    10,074
    Location:
    Dunfermline, Fife
    I think our lack of full backs hurt any formation.

    The best sides in the world at the moment all have their full backs provide width and allow the rest of the players to come inside.
  36. Mar 7, 2018
    #36

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    6,506
    Location:
    Somewhere out there
    A 4-4-2 needs proper wingers, Sharpe, Giggs, Beckham, Ronaldo, Kanchelskis etc. And you're offering up Lingard and Pogba? feck me.

    I'd like a proper winger to be added the team at some point soon, and then the 4-4-2 will at least become an option for us, but right now it absolutely isn't.
  37. Mar 8, 2018
    #37

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    14,950
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Be just like Mourinho to do that, but he's not great there.

    Same with Dybala as you would have seen yesterday if you watched Spurs vs Juve. Started as a right wide forward and was very ineffective. As soon as he moved to the 10 position he came alive and bagged a goal.

    Going forward, I would really like us to try a 442/4411.

    That said, I've probably said that about most formations. :lol:
  38. Mar 8, 2018
    #38

    Oscar.Z.Acosta Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,133
    Location:
    Mexico via west London.
    Oh, the irony. Your two replies have been ad hominem attacks without any response to my argument about how formations are overrated and it’s more to do with the quality of players.

    Carl Sagan once said it is through reasoned and respectful discourse that we can learn together as a United (excuse the pun) species and explore the universe together in peace.
    I’m worried that you can’t seem to discuss a meaningless topic such as football without becoming either hypersensitive or (falsely) attacking the individual and not the argument. I’ll wish you a good evening and please try and see an argument against your thinking as just that: an argument. Your mind will be open to so much more...
  39. Mar 8, 2018
    #39

    Swift Football Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2017
    Messages:
    882
    We have seen multiple times - how 4-4-2 chases shadows in the midfield. We need 3 in the midfield.
  40. Mar 8, 2018
    #40

    Hammondo New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2015
    Messages:
    1,276
    LM is a cm position, it's just using multiple of them.