Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Cal?, Jan 17, 2012.
^^^ Nice team Cling, slightly weak in defence but otherwise well balanced
Well the likes of Fowler were consistent goal scorers for many years but this draft is about players at their peak rather than over their whole career. You would never have heard of Fowler being mentioned as one of the best strikers in the world, in fact I dont think he ever even made the PL team of the season.
I put him in the same category as the likes of Di Natale - consistent goalscorers and good players but never World Class at any point in their career.
I thought about Di Natale and why Fowler wasn't picked ahead of him. Di Natale only started scoring when he was 30.
In his first 4 seasons, from 18-22 years of age, Fowler scored 83 league goals.
Don't know what happened to him after that but his peek of 4 seasons has a lot of goals. I'm sure if Hernandez would have been available he would have been picked a long time ago and no one would have questioned that pick.
Interesting. I think I'm pretty well covered at the back. One of the best keepers in the game (top two?), two very classy centre-backs who played top level - certainly Carvalho was one of the best in the World for some time, I think - and Capdevila is very underrated; you don't make that Spain XI without being very good. Gary Kelly was a decent last pick, he was solid enough.
Probably a good point, but I think he was lethal and one of the best forwards in the Premier League between about '94-97. Up there with Shearer, Sutton, Ferdinand, Sheringham, Cole. Wow, what a lineup of English strikers we had!
Without in any way putting them at the same level, Ceni is a bit like Ryan Giggs. Giggs never had the recognition he deserved due to being Welsh (no WC/Euro winner bragging rights, not even participation ) and he only ever played for one team, which limits his fanbase.
What makes it worse for Ceni is that he was a goalkeeper. Clearly, Sao Paulo wouldn't have him as their keeper, then captain, for ~15 years if he weren't rather good. But he never played outside Brazil/Libertadores Cup, so you have to ask yourself whether you want to go to a World Cup with someone who has never played at anything remotely ressembling that level in nets.
Scolari did that with Marcos because 1. he had been his goalie at Palmeiras and he trusted him, 2. he was a "good bible-thumping egg" at a time when dressing room unity was the most significant challenge Brazil faced.
The only game we can go on to assess Marcos is the Club World Championship final against Liverpool. He got man of the match and pulled some magnificent saves BUT he got away with Liverpool having three goals disallowed (two of them were a bit harsh TBH) so not entirely convincing.
This and the "never faced anything like this before" gave me cold feet, which is why I went for Barthez (and lost Sousa as a result ).
That said, he is also great at saving penalties, and scoring them, and freekicks... This chap has the record for most goals by a goalkeeper (more than 100, about 1/10 games)!
I have a perfect weapon for Cal? when someone hesitates to vote for this guy:
Exactly. You're from South America. You've probably seen them play. For me it's only the Brazil games and rare CWC ones. That's nothing to go buy since they didn't play that much for Brazil.
Ceni takes penalties and free kicks. Hardly matters one bit with Beckham in the team so his goal scoring record is irrelevant. Wouldn't been allowed to that in a big European league.
Fact is most of the people have actually seen these guys play at all. It's all reputation with them and number of appearances. I don't doubt they aren't good goalkeepers. I just fully disagreed with that statement that they were the 2 best Brazilian goalkeepers for the past 20 years.
I think the club-hopping also had to do with his injuries. Wasn't it still the case in those days that you had a limit on foreign players (with EU considered foreign)?
Still, this is a non-injured Paulo Sousa we would be talking about.
There's always some limit in Italy. Wasn't any in Germany as far as I know. Not sure if he'd be counted as foreign the whole time he was in Italy. Don't know exactly when they changed it. I know Robbie Keane was a foreigner during his time at Inter.
I'm fairly sure Hans-Jorg Butt took penalties for Leverkusen (i think) in the Bundesliga; certainly a top European league.
The 2 best goalkeepers in the Brazilian league for the last 20 years would be correct. Means bugger all in fairness.
Since all keepers are picked, I may as well point out the one that hasn't been picked and definitely deserved to be here:
2-times Copa Libertadores winner (2000, 2001)
Intercontinental Cup Winner (2000)
IFFHS ranked as 2nd best keeper in the world 2000
South American Team of the Year GK (2000, 2001)
Copa America Winner (2001)
Holds record for keeping straight clean sheets throughout a Copa America (2001)
That is some peak form there
I was just worried if I had him in goal people would think it was this guy in nets
Yes. His point on Cal having Beckham is a good one though. I'm sure we could do with Ceni's penalty-kicking in the form Rooney is in.
Antohan just won't let the Lucio/Cordoba thing die.
Was very close to choosing Cordoba but didn't think his reputation would carry enough gravitas. I remember him playing for Boca and Colombia, particularly behind that rock-solid defence in 2001.
This guy should have been picked too
Didn't rate Abbondanzieri all that much. I rated Leo Franco more at the time but then again I overrated him overall.
I'd have taken Tim Howard personally rather than the keepers no one has seen play much.
Sorensen would have been a pretty solid pick if we are going for the midtable goalies.
There are a few top players people have forgotten about I think.
They are mostly attacking players mind
Di Natale is being over valued just because his peak is right now - in 10 years time he will not be remembered as a great player.
I also think that top PL players are undervalued in this draft when compared to Serie A in particular.
I dont think your defence is bad or anything and your keeper is top class no doubt, but your strength is definitely your strong front 4.
He was good but the funny thing is that all the other strikers you mentioned have been in PL TOTY whereas Fowler never was.
Who's go are we on now?
Think about it for 5 seconds and then guess. You'll probably be right
The only issue you have ClingBak is you are playing with 3 wingers
We picked Natale because we didn't wanted a striker, we wanted someone who can play in the wide positions in the front three.
Actually I think Cal's go has been and gone - TheReligion can pick now?
I am here with my pick if that is allowed?
The game is about their peaks isn't it? Doesn't matter when their peak was.
Do it !
Yeah go for it, TheReligion, I think his time has run out. And myself, Rood and Antohan are about to get it finished off!
Some of my options at the minute.
Kamikaze do-or-die (chasing a game)
Ok, could have had a few players here as there are plenty of class acts still to be picked.
Going to go for another midfielder though, one that was straight out of the Barca school of science. Wonderful technical player who rarely gave the ball away and offered a fantastic array of passing and skill.
Ivan de la Pena
Early years at Barca
More recently at Espanyol
Sub : ALBELDA/HAMANN
Against the best midfields in the draft.
Sub : WILTORD/DI NATALE
Not sure who to play in the DM role, Ambrosini or van Bommel
Both could come in together in certain games. The passing between Rui Costa and Ivan de la Pena would be a joy to watch.
Other option is to go 4312 with both of them and drop Ortega in case people don't agree with his choice, means your fullbacks can do what they do best and get forward even more too.
well I had a list of 4 players I wanted as my 12th man and all have gone in the last round so to give me an extra midfield option I pick
Roberto Di Matteo
Rui Costa would be best played further up the pitch. With two DMs behind him he'd be at his best imo. You'd have to drop one of the forwards or Ortega for it to work though
Last pick is Junihno Paulista, another world cup winner.
I will post up my 2 lineup options, will need some opinions as I'm not sure
I agree Di Natale won't be remembered as a great but I think that's more to do with the current state of the Serie A rather than anything to do with him as a player. Have you seen much of him since the start of '09? Doesn't get the credit he deserves just because not many people watch Serie A, never mind watch a small side like Udinese. 71 goals in his last 90 league appearances is phenomenal, Fowler scored the same amount in his best three seasons scoring-wise (94-97) in 22 more games, in a league with comparable defences and scoring records.
Right enough, I barely even noticed that. It's a waste of Rui Costa to have him so deep really, no doubt he could do it but you want him given that freedom to drift.
I very nearly went for him Dan, in fact I still have his wiki open in a tab! i had a funny feeling you might pick him
I thought he might have gone in this last round. Thanks for leaving him!
Not really - I just seen him in the WC and against Arsenal and didnt seem anything special. But still he isnt a bad 9th round pick and picking current peak players is often a vote winner.
I'm going for a very solid 4-2-3-1 formation that should be able to deal with any variation of 4-4-2.
If you have average full backs then you'll not want to play me. Threat from outside the box is as much as inside it. Lampard and Frings are both quite capable of shooting with great power. Even Petit has that ability.
Kluivert was an all around forward in his prime. Technically able and could score all sorts of goals. One of few strikers in this draft able to hold his own as a lone striker.
My defense is composed of great veterans in both Champions and domestic league with their respected clubs as well as on the international stage.
My goalkeeper is known for many reasons. He's had his dunce moments but he's also had his WC moments. Since this is about them at their peak I'm thankful that the dunce moments are few.
My team has 50 league medals, 9 CL medals, 1 EC winner and 2 WC winners, 1 Copa America and Libertadores winner and 96 different cup medals which include the Cup Winners Cup, FA Cup, various Super Cups etc.
Player honors they've got plenty of as well.
Substitute: Nicholas Anelka
Separate names with a comma.