Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by NotBrendanRodgers honest, Jan 15, 2018.
Hmm, you can beat Juventus but...
Who are these "plenty of clubs"? In the FA Cup I'd say only City.
... and then it'd down to the luck of the draw and performances on the day. On our day Spurs are capable of beating any team.
First time I've seen Spurs turn the screw against us at Anfield. Was expecting them to roll over after the first goal. Shows the bottle they held against Utd earlier wasn't just a one off. Poch is still making a difference.
Ah you already have the abilty to read my mind Ok, not saying it cannot happen but...
Liverpool and Chelsea couldn't win it either (when they did), Greece won the Euros. Spurs are far from favourites, but gotta stick with your team and believe right?
I respect that but better stay focused on Juventus first, they are improving their performances
Absolutely, think it's gonna be a great game and I'm really looking forward to it. They are favourites, but we got players coming back and also seem to be performing well as of late. Either way, I am really just appreciating watching my team in the knock out stages of the CL, not many supporters can do that and for a football fan who have watched the competition for years it will be a great night (as long as we turn up).
Real come calling he's off, and take Kane and Alli with him I think. Spurs won't win anything again, they're a good team to watch, but their play can be a crux for them away from home, they don't change.
Liverpool yesterday if they played more defensive in 1st half they could well have won the game, Liverpool pressing game can't last for 90. So Poch may well be off if a better offer comes he has to.
They ain't exactly competing nor ever challenge for the title. Being in CL and top 4, then Wenger was doing no wrong the whole time. Arsenal pretty much clear the whole debt for the stadium project and making profit. Yet in reality, it's fair to question their ambitions. Wenger eventually talked as if he achieved a lot during that period citing the stadium project. That's the problem right there. While building up infrastructure is necessary, to use it as achievement instead of trophies is the problem which betray football. In long run strong financial clubs rule, but even smaller clubs can achieve thing from time to time against the odd.
Using City spending to justify unambitious approach for the like of Arsenal and Tottenham is the problem. Sure the latters deserve better the way they run which I am in support of FFP 2.0 to be stricter on the way City hack their money into the system. However, 2 wrong doesn't make 1 right. Arsenal in other years and Tottenham have the squad to achieve here and there. Thing is they seem to try to make that next step.
I like the work Mauricio is doing at Tottenham but I prefer Sampaoli. Sampaoli has more flexibilty and his teams are braver. His character is questionable but his methodology is admirable.
No. That's not what I said.
I made a point. Poch has done little of note in real terms. Benitez has.
Obviously Poch is in the ascendancy and Benitez is very much in the twilight of his career.
He's got to win things though. I don't see why people have a problem with admitting that Spurs have underachieved in the past 2-3 years, based on their players. Overachieved as a club maybe. But that's not the same thing. They've been a top 6 side for 8 consecutive seasons. They need more.
Benitez at Valencia, Jose at Porto, Ferguson at United, the list goes on. Managers inheriting good teams/clubs and galvanising them for actual success through coaching methods and acquisitions. Not just aiming to be 'best of the rest'
The end result has to be trophies.
Poch has become far more tactically flexible over the last couple of years, where he now to a certain degree changes tactics to fit whoever is in our line up and who we play.
The link I posted earlier is a very thorough read-up on the development of Poch as a coach during his time in England. Lovely long read for Spurs fans, but should be quite interesting to other football-nerds as well.
I`ll post the link again:
Surely he can be judge on his performances and not the money to his disposal? Yes, congrats to him he has assembled a team 11v11 as good as United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal on a budget.
So with a squad as good as he would have at a ''top'' club he still hasn't won anything.
First 11 as good as those 4, the squad is MAYBE getting there now, but not until this season or maybe even this window.
So this is really his first season (or month) with a "top" club SQUAD.
I feel like you are being a little harsh on Poch.
Spurs are capable of winning things, as is any club to an extent, but at the same time the United, City and Chelsea squads are more capable of winning them than Spurs. These 3 teams have always been far more likely winners than Spurs in the last few years. You can’t really criticise him for not winning anything when the competition is better than Spurs.
I don’t expect Spurs to win anything, but just because they haven’t won anything doesn’t mean he hasn’t done well.
Should he not be judged on a combination of the two? Otherwise you are arguing that having lots of money to spend has no bearing on squad quality.
Net Spend in last 4 Seasons:
Manchester City...................-602.98m €
Manchester United...............-490.74m €
Thought it showed fantastic dedication to his work to see him at the Chelsea Watford game tonight. He sounded like death post match last night, with terrible flu. Could quite easily have rested up at home and watched the coverage.
Net spend doesn't win you a trophy. I'm saying he's pretty much had the same squad for 2 years and within that 2 years the best striker in the world. He is on par with 4 of the 5 big clubs in terms of quality. He should be judged now since the FA Cup is he's only chance of silverware, in which he won't win.
He's definitely useless.No way a big club should hire him. Let Spurs keep him as long as they like.
It's not like he travelled to Newcastle to watch a game, it's just down the road
You're missing the point though, surely? No-one is arguing he hasn't built a great team for the money he has, Spurs have signed some top players for peanuts. That being said, regardless of how much the squad cost, he has a squad that should be challenging for major honours. You have the best striker in the World, one of the best playmakers in the league and Dele Alli (who showed against us) who's still capable of being one of the best players in the league. Not to add the best defence in the league, a very good goalkeeper, good fullbacks and a more than capable midfield.
There's building a good team, then there's leading that team to success. This isn't even taking into consideration all the extra pressure he'd have to deal with with a bigger budget. It's not as simple as saying he has a lot of money so it'l be even better. Bigger players have bigger egos, bigger clubs wouldn't be willing to give him nearly as much time as he's had at Spurs, more media scrutiny, more expectation from the fans, media, board etc. Completely different ball game. I'm not saying it's the case, but just because a manager is doing very well in a set up where he has free reign and enough time to stamp his identity on the club, doesn't mean he'll be able to transition to the demands of a more demanding club.
So City's massive net spend has not won them the league title? And PSG are not now strong contenders for the CL due to net spend? My, my, I learn something new every day.
PS. The FA Cup is not our only chance of silverware, regardless of your confident prediction (despite your not knowing how the luck of the draw will pan out) that we won't win it.
Despite his vast spending, what major honours is Mourinho challenging for at United that Pochettino isn't? Are you challenging for the league title? No. Have United challenged more for the league title than Pochettino since Mounrinho arrived? No. Are you contending in the CL? Yes ... and so are Spurs.
Nor is it the case that "bigger players" have all have bigger egos - some do and some don't. If, as you've said, we have the best striker in the world, one of the best playmakers in the league, the best defence etc etc .... then how come the Spurs squad has no ego problems and is a model of togetherness? I'll tell you why: because (a) Poch doesn't go for players with big egos (he ships them out pronto) and (b) his man-management is superb.
Stop being so defensive! What’s being said is that your club has been run magnificently for the past decade, culminating in a wonderful squad and an admirable, organic transition into a Premier League superpower, and that you deserve to be winning silverware.
The scrutiny is rightly on Pochettino; it’s not an overly expensive squad, but it’s certainly one comprehensive enough to be competitive - how many of the Leicester or Chelsea teams that have won the past 3 titles would get into your first 11? Best defender in the league, best striker in the league.....the pedigree of this squad is elite, the only thing that isn’t is the trophy haul, and the manager is responsible for that.
Leicester was a one-off 'miracle' - we all know that, so citing them is just silly. And with regard to Chelsea you're forgetting all of the spending that has gone into that club over the years.
I agree that Spurs should be competitive ... and more and more we have become so under Pochettino. But there's no competing on fair grounds with City's spending, not when they out-spend us in net terms by a factor of 19 to 1 (or more).
Pochettino has been fantastic for Spurs, and has assembled a great squad without investing anywhere near other top sides. I think he deserves huge credit for that. He has this knack of bringing on youth players which is fantastic. IMO grooming 'youth players' is getting more and more difficult, and it has reached a point where its almost impossible to groom one in a top side and Pochettino deserves special credit for continuing giving chance to younger players.
His decision to play 'Kane' when Soldado was not working out for them has proven to be masterstroke. Its not unusual to see managers going after more experienced players rather than to have faith in youngsters. He has this patience with younger players, and also Tottenham's setup where they do not demand a lot in relative terms has helped him.
But, now that Tottenham is in top 4 in consecutive seasons and they have tasted Champions League, can Pochettino take such risk like he did with Kane, Alli? Can Totteham give him luxury of not winning anything. How much time are they willing to give him to deliver at least one trophy. In one way, you can say Pochettino has been victim of his own success, on other, you can say that he find himself in perfect conditions in Tottenham 3 years back, but it wont be same one or two years down the line.
Many on here brought the topic of money to show that how Pochettino has been fantastic with by far less money he has invested. With the money he has invested, its actually great. But it is one thing to create a good side by investing less money and entirely different story to create a very top side by investing a lot. Many assume that managers who are managing to do relatively well in small budget will do wonders when he has access to higher resources. But it does not work that way, just look at Moyes, he did decent at Everton in the stringent budget but failed miserably at United when he had access to resources.
Having money helps, but that does not confirm that you would surely success. Also, if you have more money, you will have more responsibilities too, so it goes hand in hand. If Pochettino were at Chelsea, if would not surprise me to see him sacked...Twice!! for the similar work he did at Spurs. So, it also depends a lot on the club's demands and aspirations.
I do not have exact numbers of money spent on squad, but i think Spurs have spend as much as the likes of Bayern/Atletico/Dortmund/Monaco in last few seasons, but Spurs do not have anywhere near their success, and that's because just looking at money spent does not show the whole scenario.
When you have league’s best striker and you win nothing – then its very likely that you will not win anything in next 5 years either. I think , the reason why Spurs have not won anything is not by chance, but because of Pochettino's style. Pochettino's high pressing and one on one defensive cover is fundamentally very risky in cup games, may be they have more chance of winning league than cups. To have more chances of actually winning, they have to add little bit of pragmatism to their style, but that will in turn weaken their basic style of high pressing which is their strength to start with.
Pochettino has done tremendoulsy well for Spurs till now, but its natural to have doubts to say if he is the right man to take them forward. Their record against top 6 in last few seasons is hardly 'encouraging'. When they lost the league to Leicester, many even claim them to be bottlers.
Pochettino is good but well below the likes of tried and tested Pep and Jose. I hardly doubt Madrid will go for Pochettino given he has not won anything considerable yet (I am not sure if he won Copa Del Rey with Espanyol in the season he was sacked). And , hypothetically, if Real go for him, will Pochettino be able to last a season where they instantly demand a trophy. Will he be able to manage big egos in dressing room, something he has never done in his coaching life yet.
He's doing an immense job.
Although I'm not going to give them too much credit for playing us off the park second half given how big a tactical error that side was from Klopp.
The diving and kicking culture isn't particularly endearing either. I've never much minded Spurs given I don't much interact with their fans but it does leave a sour taste in the mouth when you're on the receiving end.
Still all that being said their trajectory and momentum is heading in the right direction in the grander scheme of things. Would be interesting to see what would happen if they didn't get top four this season though .
Net spend has to be thought of with a bit of context. Put Harry Kane in those Watford or Leicester sides and they’d also be challenging top 4. Spurs have had a good scouting system before Poch and they’ll continue to have that after him. As a manager he will ultimately have to win trophies.
That's downplaying Poch's role in developing Harry Kane. Kane wasn't some feared youth prospect, Poch really did superb job in making Kane was the best striker in the league and some of the players who looked like duds into very good players.
Dembele's career was going nowhere, it was Poch who made him excellent midfielder, same with Walker, Rose and many others.
Poch's role in developing this team shouldn't be underestimated. Deserves 100% credit for where Spurs are.
I agree he's basically made the careers of quite a few players. Kane and Alli are the standouts obviously but also the development of eriksen has been impressive, for me he is the best player bar Kane. I think it's a credit to the manager that I could easily see Kane, Eriksen etc at elite clubs like Madrid that has come directly from him.
Exactly, thanks @AP88
See above @GlastonSpur
The outcome of the City-Spurs game in December had nothing to do with finance and everything to do with moronic tactics and team selection by Pocchettino; I’m completely against their financial (and alleged literal) doping, but that doesn’t account for the past 2 seasons.
We can’t allow cost to completely blur judgement of players and their quality - perhaps only Kante (although I prefer Wanyama), Hazard and Azpilicueta of that Chelsea team would get into the Spurs first 11. You bought them all on the cheap, but the players you’ve got a brilliant - there was nothing between De Bruyne and Eriksen until this season, when ginge suddenly acquires Mo Farrah-esque stamina and McGregor intensity in his mid twenties......
Pochettino is lucky to have the job, and he has to earn the right to keep it; the only way to do that is by finding a way to win trophies. Newcastle and Leeds have also risen and fallen with nothing more than plaudits to show for it, and this Spurs team could do the same unless a winning identity is established soon.
In Europe this season, against Dortmund and Real, it was a tactical masterclass, but he has to embrace such pragmatism domestically too; I think his perpetual motion football burns his players out over the season, where a few ugly 1-0’s would allow the players to recharge.
Pocchettino is a classic example of a manager's success being used against him. He's done a fantastic job at Spurs and got them playing better than I've seen them and their highest finish in the league for ages. I don't really agree with the criticism around the lack of trophies either. Managers have priorities finishing in the top 4 is certainly a bigger priority than winning a League Cup or FA Cup.
Tottenham boss Pochettino defends Alli, says tricking refs part of game
LONDON -- Mauricio Pochettino says Dele Alli deserved to be booked for diving against Liverpool but the Tottenham manager claims "tricking" officials and opponents is part of the game he loves.
The Spurs boss warned that excessive focus on "small actions" like Alli's would over-sanitise football and said the game will suffer if referees are not allowed to make mistakes.
Alli's booking in the dramatic 2-2 draw at Anfield was his third for simulation since his Tottenham debut in August 2015 -- more than any other Premier League player in the same period -- and it came four days after he was denied a clear penalty in the 2-0 win over Manchester United at Wembley.
"It was clear. It was a yellow card. The referee was right," Pochettino said of Alli's dive. "The problem now is that we are so sensitive about the situation. And we are so focused on Dele Alli.
"It's too much sometimes. There is such a focus on this type of situation. I think it's a minimal issue.
"Look, there are a lot of positives from Dele. Of course, he's not perfect. Nobody is perfect. He is a clever boy. He is a little bit nasty. The problem today is about more than this type of situation: I am worried that we are going to change the game that we know, how we know football.
"Football is a creative sport, in which you need the talent that grows in a very intelligent person, and a very smart brain. And now we are so focused on minimal details.
"I am worried that in a few years, the sport that we love now -- a passionate sport that the people love to watch around the world -- will be pushed into a very rigid structure -- with the VAR, with being focused too much on the small actions like this.
"To stop the game, to punish people... Twenty years ago, 30 years ago, all congratulated the player when he tricks the referee like this! Not just in Argentina but in England too.
"You believe that in England you were honest and always perfect! That is the football that I was in love with when I was a child."
He said: "Football is about trying to trick your opponent. What does 'tactics' mean? When you do some tactics is to try to trick the opponent. You say, "Oh I go to the right but I'm going to finish on the left!"
"It's a mix [of skills]. I am worried that maybe we are going to kill the game. We love this game!
"It is always in my mind to think positively about the [referee's] decision," he added. "The referees are humans too and sometimes they are right, sometimes they are not right. I like this type of football.
"In 10 months, the whole season, sometimes it is against you, sometimes it is for you. In football we accept that is the situation and sometimes the referees are going to help and sometimes they are going to not help you.
"Only my worry is this: of course if you dive and the referee saw you, you are punished. Of course and he deserves it. But don't go more crazy!"
Edit: Mods I think this should warrant a thread of its own
Given Spurs wage and transfer budget, I doubt the manager is under any pressure to deliver trophy at all. Spur's wage bill is sitting at 6(£121.2m), so getting into top 4 is a huge accomplishment for Pochettino already. Liverpool is fifith with £165.6m. Arsenal 4th (£200.5m), Chelsea 3rd (£218m). Also there is a poster above list the NET TRANSFER SPEND of Spurs. Then only manager under pressure to get in top 4 is Arsene Wenger just because of the resource he has on hand.
Averge net transfer spending per season for the last 5 years is
Totenham - €3.2m
Liverpool - €34.7m
Arsenal - €49.5m
Man utd - €96.7m
Man City - €100m
Both Spurs and Liverpool are punching above their weight and their managers are doing great job. Trophy is not the only indicator to measure success.
As i said, the only manager should be under pressure is Arsene Wenger. He failed to deliver a top 4 finish last season given the budget, and his chance to do that this season seems slim as well.
Good manager but not won anything.
The only way Pochettino will leave Tottenham is if he wants a bigger challenge and one of the giant European clubs come calling. Otherwise, it’s a cushy job of making top 4 or 6, have all the time to integrate home grown players and no pressure to win any trophies from an owner with realistic expectations.
You can extend this to Southampton, a lot of the players under him there got moves to bigger clubs because of development whilst he was manager.
It's not too bad of a job to hone your managerial skills though really. A good youth setup, young players to buy into your football philosophy, still able to attract some international talent and promise of CL football.
Certainly so. Tottenham is the best football club in England to build a team in your own fashion as the manager is given ample time to do that. Levy is a shrewd operator and is doing the right thing.
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