A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by NotBrendanRodgers honest, Jan 15, 2018.

  1. Feb 7, 2018

    NoLogo Full Member

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    Honestly this is getting increasingly more difficult in the current state of football. Almost all trophies are won by a select few big clubs these days. In England it's usually Us, City, Chelsea or well Arsenal and Liverpool with the "minor" trophies.

    The only managers to break that mold in recent years are bascially Simeone, Klopp and Ranieri. So it's rather rare that managers outside of the dominating teams win anything in the big leagues and Europe. Admittedly the season where Ranieri won the league he should have done it.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you hire a manager as a top club you need to look at more than just the trophies he has won. Do you think his philosophy matches the clubs philosophy, does he have the work ethic to improve, how does he chose his staff, is he respected in the community and so on. Because if we don't do that at some point the top teams will just keep swapping managers among each other until they are too old.
  2. Feb 7, 2018

    MrBest Full Member

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    A club like United needs a manager who knows how to win trophies. No point hiring a person who has a good work ethic. We turnover the most in the world so we have the money for the best in the world. We really don't need a repeat of moyes who had a good work ethic at everton. Poch is a good manager but he should be aiming for the league cup as a minimum.
  3. Feb 7, 2018

    ROFLUTION Full Member

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    To me, I couldn't care less if he has won "nothing" - The FA cup is never easy to win - it took us many years previous to Van Gaal.

    .. and the League Cup has first really mattered more this year after the prem suddenly got 6 big managers in need of performing.

    He's still showed he's capable of winning against big teams like City, United and Real Madrid and there's been plenty of times last year where they showed winner-instinct by taking narrow wins again and again.

    Also it seems that whenever a player is getting worse or sold from Tottenham, another one takes his place and does a good job fairly easy (Davies/Trippier/Sanchez/Wanyama/Son) - This is probably because Poch is good at getting the best out of his players and squad.

    To me he is the most natural manager for United's historically attacking playstyle.
    I prefer Mourinho because of his experience though.
  4. Feb 7, 2018

    Mickfoley Banned

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    He just has a freak forward that bails him out. Otherwise he's just a decent coach.
  5. Feb 7, 2018

    breakout67 Full Member

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    Naah, he developed Harry Kane into a world class striker :lol:
  6. Feb 7, 2018

    ThierryHenry14 New Member

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    So to measure the success of a manager in EPL, I would do point per million spent in wages as an indicator. Wages info is taken from http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-wage-bills-club-by-club/

    in season 2016-2017

    1. Chelsea - 93pt/£218m = 0.4266 pt/m
    2. Tottenham - 86pt/£121.2m = 0.7096 pt/m
    3. Man City - 78pt/£225m = 0.3467 pt/m
    4. Liverpool - 76pt/£165.6m = 0.459 pt/m
    5. Arsenal - 75pt/£200.5m = 0.374 pt/m
    6. Man Utd - 69pt/£220.8m = 0.3125 pt/m

    As you can see Tottenham has been excellent in efficiency for her resources, followed by liverpool and Chelsea. I took out the average net transfer spending per season for the last 5 years on purpose (transfer fee allowed to improve the squad is a huge factor, just look at man city this year vs last) out of the equation otherwise the number will be even more impressive for Pochettino. I do not have the number on my hand but I would like to see this Point per million in wages in his Southampton days.

    Even I am an Arsenal fans, so I should not have defended Pochettino, but this "he hasn't won any trophy" as an excuse to downplay the GREAT work of a manager is ridiculous. Both Pochettino and Klopp are doing an GREAT job for their clubs.
  7. Feb 7, 2018

    Swift Football Banned

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    And neither is net spend transfer. Like you said, Pochettino is not under any pressure to deliver the trophy at Spurs, and that has helped him. If he were in clubs like CHelsea, he would have been sacked for that.

    I am sure they have spend more than West Brom, Newport, and Watford with whom they already have draws. OVer the course of season, Pochettino does not win enough against these smaller teams. and like I said their record against top 6 sides in last 3 seasons is hardly encouraging. A case can be made, he has plateaued and their is serious doubt if he can take the team forward from here. He is hardly winning anything even with the best striker in the league at his disposal.

    Creating a top team is one thing but creating a "winning" team is a different ball game altogether.


    If I were a owner of a club, and I am chasing some silverware and i hv 2 options :
    Take Pochettino and have 300M to spend Or take Pep/Jose and have 100M to spend.
    I will gladly take second option as I would know for sure what I am getting from the likes of Pep/Jose.

    The managers who have done a good job in smaller budget, they are good at that , but give them abundant resources, and they would be like a deer in the headlight.
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  8. Feb 7, 2018

    africanspur Full Member

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    But he's not at Chelsea so surely this is a moot point?

    I don't know if it is just the internet but people seem to insist on black and white arguments. Is Poch a manager with a long list of trophies in his CV? No, clearly not. Has he gotten Tottenham to punch well above their weight in the past few seasons? Clearly so.

    Someone can have done an incredible job at the club they are at but not necessarily be a good fit elsewhere. I've even said that I think current Poch would get eaten alive at Real Madrid. Who knows in the future but now? No. Conversely, would record breaking Zidane have gotten Spurs to 3rd and then 2nd? No, I don't think he would have done at all.

    Our record against the other top 6 teams is right in the middle of the pack and performance against the other teams is hardly appalling...otherwise surely we would have been finishing 6th or lower?

    Its funny you mention West Brom because our wage bill is closer to West Brom's than it is to even our nearest competitor in the top 6. Something that some seem to struggle to take into account when making it an expectation that Spurs win trophies or subsequently marking seasons as failures.

    Poch is no Ferguson but its interesting that he took almost 4 years to win his first trophy at Man Utd, in an era without financial doping like today. And yes I know he'd done incredible work in Scotland before that job but still, you get what I mean.
  9. Feb 7, 2018

    el3mel Full Member

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    Is Poch a good manager ? Definitely yes.
    Is he the manager everyone hails him as he's ? I don't think so. Still needs to do a lot to prove him as one of the best in the world. He's currently a good manager and that's it.

    All talking about him lacking resources in Spurs and with more money in a bigger club he'll achieve greater things, let's not forget that also the level of expectations will be raised with rising resources, money and bigger statue of a club. With the current expectations at Spurs he'll always be hailed but when he will be asked to deliver silverware continuously the bar will be raised and the way of evaluating him will never be the same as what it's now when he's in Spurs, getting praise when winning a great match and avoiding criticism completely when terrible results happen because of excuses about it being only Spurs.

    When he moves to a big club and proves his ability to adopt with the rising bar of expectation we may consider him one of the best, but for now he's just a good manager and the doubts will and should stay around him.
  10. Feb 7, 2018

    ThierryHenry14 New Member

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    Spurs is building a new 61599 seats stadium, and got into top 4 last 2 seasons. Poch is doing what Wenger did back then in arsenal. He will get more resources with the new stadium, and if Spurs can get into top 4 again this season. I doubt even real madrid or barca can take him off spurs given the lifespan of a Barca/RM manager is average 2-3 season. He is doing something special with Spurs.
  11. Feb 7, 2018

    Swift Football Banned

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    Zidane is not at Spurs, so that is a moot point as well.

    My post in not that black and white, you just 'assumed' it that way. Like u said, Pochettino has done a tremendous job at creating this tottenham team, and being in top 4 last few seasons. Nobody doubts that. I am just making the point that just because he spend less than others and still were able to be in Top4- does not warrnat that he is a great manager. To be a true great, he has to make that leap and many managers fail to make that final leap.

    NOt winning silverware at Spurs is not a failure, because that is the sort of expectations there! But, had they had such expectations, Pochettino would have more pressure to deliver.

    Many people tend to forget that its not like Spurs were mid table team before Pochettino. THey were 4th in 2012 snd in 2010. their average position before Pochettino was 5th/6th. POchettino has made them little better and made them contenders along with other top 6. THis season, looks like Spurs are dropping back to their more familiar 4th position, so i dont know is it a case of Pochettino being brilliant or other clubs being worse for last 2 seasons.

    One thing we can say for sure is - Pochettino has not won anything yet, but I admit that des not make him bad. :D
  12. Feb 7, 2018

    ThierryHenry14 New Member

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    their average position before Pochettino was 5th/6th
    - because their wages is 6th highest in EPL?

    POchettino has made them little better and made them contenders along with other top 6
    -only if finishing 2nd, and 3rd last 2 season, against teams with almost double the resource is considered as a little better. sure why not?

    I highly Doubt Real would go for him
    - I would say i doubt he will join real madrid instead.
  13. Feb 7, 2018

    africanspur Full Member

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    I certainly hope so! People are always talking about when Poch moves on, which is fair enough, but I personally hope he becomes our Ferguson, Wenger and spends a long time with us, winning trophies. As to whether that happens, we'll see but he seems to genuinely enjoy himself at the club.
  14. Feb 7, 2018

    ti vu Full Member

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    Disagree. The reason we didn't push for FA Cup as hard as we used to do in SAF's latter years because SAF prioritized pushing for title challenge every year and trying our best in CL aiming for another. Our squad, and quality was worse toward the end so no point stretching out for a trophy SAF at the time of his retirement was holding the record.

    Rewinding time, the earlier in his United career, the harder SAF pushed for FA Cup. His aim is to create winning mentality. There is no coincidence, he held the record of most win before his retirement.

    All the talk of needing the stronger team to win a domestic cup is laughable. Sure from time to time, the draw would be too tough. However to say the same thing year after year is questionable. You can't get bad luck all the time, can you? So what is the excuse not winning when luck point your way?

    Agree. Simply put: at ambitious clubs you can be criticized for bad luck even you're doing nothing wrong. You're not getting praise for effort. Result is the final mark. Not every coaches have the mentality to endure that situation.
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  15. Feb 7, 2018

    africanspur Full Member

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    I think the only point of disagreement here seems to be how we're defining great. When I say great, I don't mean an all time great, I just mean that he's doing a very good job. If we're going to call Ferguson for example, great, then clearly Poch is not great.

    But then I just described the dinner my wife cooked as great so maybe I'm too full of superlatives!

    Regardless of how other clubs were doing, we picked up 86 points last season, which would have been enough to win the league most seasons iirc. Other than that, I don' t think we disagree too greatly actually there.
  16. Feb 7, 2018

    GlastonSpur Also disliked on an Aston Villa forum

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    Your comments here are a little bit off-beat .... because it generally becomes progressively harder to finish in higher and higher positions beyond 5th due to the increased strength of the usual rival teams (compared to those below the top 5 or 6) for top 4 and/or the league title.

    In other words, the achievement gap between 5th and 6th is generally a fair bit less than the achievement gap between 4th and 5th, and the achievement gap between 3rd and 4th is generally a fair bit more than the achievement gap between 4th and 5th ... and so on.

    The average final league position in the 3 full seasons since Poch arrived is 3.33. The average in the 3 seasons before that was 5th exactly, or 4.8 if you want to take it all the way back to the first time we finished 4th.
  17. Feb 7, 2018

    RedCurry Full Member

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    I'll take your point about Walker, Dembele and Rose but I wouldn't give too much credit to Pochettino for Harry Kane's development. Kane hasn't stopped scoring since he burst onto the scene even though Soldado was initially preferred over him. His development is much more down to the academy and his own talent.
  18. Feb 7, 2018

    Hitchez Full Member

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    By this logic you can never credit any manager for the playing a young player.

    Kane's rise from from a 2nd choice player to probably the best striker in the world came under him and he deserves a large part of the credit.
  19. Feb 7, 2018

    RedSky likes to kick 10-year-olds Scout

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    I only think he'll move on if he wins the Champions League. I think he must realise that the chance of winning the Premier League is a bit limited given the vast difference in finances. But if he wins the Champions League then I don't think he'll ever do better, that will be his club high. I very much doubt you will win the Champions League mind, but if you do I think that will be the reason he decides to leave. Otherwise he'll stay with you for a few more seasons imo. There's no rush for him to take on Madrid and he seems happy and looking at the long term with Spurs.
  20. Feb 7, 2018

    RedCurry Full Member

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    If a player comes into the team and starts banging in goals from the get go, then no the manager shouldn't be getting plaudits for that. There are a lot of people at Spurs who deserve credit for Kane's development and least of them is Pochettino.
  21. Feb 7, 2018

    Swift Football Banned

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    --- Again, wages bill is not sole indicator of how good a manager is. Surely, Dortmund, Atletico, Monaco and even Bayern have comparable wages to Spurs but Spurs have nowhere near success. Wigan won FA cup in 2013 surely they had lower wages than Tottenham.


    POchettino has made them little better and made them contenders along with other top 6
    -only if finishing 2nd, and 3rd last 2 season, against teams with almost double the resource is considered as a little better. sure why not?
    Last 2 seasons is just too narrow sample set to say anything good or bad about Pochettino. This year, looks like they are dropping back to 4th position after all. bY your logic, Pochettino has regressed this season!

    I highly Doubt Real would go for him
    - I would say i doubt he will join real madrid instead.
    and i would say , he will get fired in one season in any big clubs where trophy is expected.
  22. Feb 7, 2018

    Swift Football Banned

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    Your point only reinforces what i am trying to say. THe progression from 5th/6th ,whatever it is, to 2nd is hard, but the progression from 2nd to 1st is way too harder, and thats why Pochettino cannot be counted with the likes of Pep and Jose. He has not shown that he can make that leap.

    I am not trying to undermine the work he has done at Spurs, he deserves special credit for taking them to top4, at a time when rival teams are throwing money around for fun, and for developing young players into top players. However, this all does not warrant he is among the 'elite' managers.
  23. Feb 7, 2018

    GlastonSpur Also disliked on an Aston Villa forum

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    Sure, but neither has he so far had the mega-bucks available to those two in order to make a better attempt at making that leap to the league title. It's easy to speak of 'elite' managers when they can outspend Spurs by vast amounts.
  24. Feb 7, 2018

    Swift Football Banned

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    These 'elite' managers have access to vast amounts at the first place because they have done something spectacular in the past, something that convinces the board of these rich clubs to go for these managers.

    Other managers, who do not have access to such vast resources, we will never know. A case can be made - Pulis would be tremendous if he is given this much amount, but the truth is he wont be given that much aamount at the first place, so you will never know.
  25. Feb 7, 2018

    septic Full Member

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    Pep started with Barca. Poch started out with Espanyol and Southampton. Bit of a difference there no? Jose did well for Porto yes but has managed big clubs since.

    Incredibly unfair to basically blame Poch for not being given a chance at a rich club.

    Fact is if you are outperforming your expectations at a less rich club, chances are you may achieve expectations at a richer club. If not then we will forever have a merry go round of managers and rich clubs because no one will take a damn risk.
  26. Feb 7, 2018

    GlastonSpur Also disliked on an Aston Villa forum

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    Anyhow, obviously I'm very happy for Poch to be at Spurs .. and I wouldn't swap him for any other manager in the world.

    In my view he's done very, very well for Spurs on an extremely limited budget ... and now he deserves the loosening of the purse strings that will start this summer.

    Given a fair wind, he can build something tremendous with Spurs - we're halfway there already.
  27. Feb 7, 2018

    ThierryHenry14 New Member

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    Instead of having a serious look at Mauricio Pochettino, I looked at arsene wenger just because I am an arsenal fan.

    I have a realistic expectation for him, which is to finish 4th every season as minimum requirement, just simply because our wage and average transfer fee spent is sitting at 4th. The difference in wages between 4th and 5th (liverpool) is (200.5-165.6)/165.6 = 21%, and for transfer net spending (49.5-34.7)/34.7= 42%, so this shouldn't be a lot to ask for. I never consider Wenger as a failure just because he didn't win the league since 2004, after all the difference between Man UTD in wages and transfer spending is 10% and 95%. The difference in annual budget is close to 70M. If he can challenge for the title that would be nice, and FA cup or league cup would be a bonus. Also i would like to see attacking football on display as well. I know it is result oriented in the end, but football is an entertainment for me after all. What's the point to spend 3 hours to watch a boring match (I hate to see my team park the bus against the top 6 teams, but it is just me)?

    so for wenger last season
    top 4 X
    FA Cup Check
    attacking football Check

    So i can understand the reason the board gave Wenger a new contract. If Arsenal miss out top 4 again, then I wouldn't be surprised if wenger get the "promotion" to the board.

    ***Pochettino scored a A+++++ to me as a manager for the last 2 season.
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  28. Feb 8, 2018

    singabiru Banned

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    Why so you believe the purse strings will be loosened this summer?
  29. Feb 8, 2018

    GlastonSpur Also disliked on an Aston Villa forum

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    Because Levy will want to mark the new stadium opening (and our first season in it) with something of a statement.

    I'm not saying we're going to match the net spend this summer of City or United, for example, but I think we'll spend a lot more than for many years past.
  30. Feb 8, 2018

    hn4manunited Full Member

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    I actually think you all might be selling some of your top players. Same situation at Arsenal when they moved to their new stadium.
  31. Feb 8, 2018

    singabiru Banned

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    It will be interesting to see what happens if the stadium is really opened on time in 2018. If there is a statement to make, any quality player that is sold by Levy will need to be matched by a player of equal if not better caliber otherwise I can see Spurs fans getting heated up as the stadium costs will no longer be a viable excuse.
  32. Feb 8, 2018

    Primativ New Member

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    Where is the logic behind that?

    There is no chance we sell any of our top players this summer. Only happens if someone says he wants out but there are no noises like that. Rose would have been an obvious one but he's barely strung two games together all season so firstly

    He isn't even in form.

    Secondly

    Would United really want to spend the £50 million Spurs would demand on a player who had a serious knee injury and subsequent niggles since and hasn't played properly in 18 months?

    Rose would be better off staying here another season to try and rediscover his fitness and form again.
  33. Feb 8, 2018

    Revan Assumptionman

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    Kane had scored a shitload of goals for Spurs under Sherwood. When Pochetino joined Spurs, Kane was already their best player.
  34. Feb 8, 2018

    Primativ New Member

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    Wtf? No he wasn't.:lol:

    Kane barely played half a dozen games for Spurs at the back end of that season. Kane made his first PL start in April and Sherwood was sacked 2 months later. It wasn't until Poch came along that Kane made the jump from rotation player to regular first team. How on earth does one become Spurs best player after about 5 league apps?
  35. Feb 8, 2018

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    He wasn't and he didn't. Soldado was first choice striker even under Poch first season, Kane was scoring lot in Europa league and then was started in PL.

    Kane played 500 mins in PL before Poch became their coach.
  36. Feb 8, 2018

    Revan Assumptionman

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    So far, he is more Moyes on steroids, than a really top manager. Most of the arguments here have been used for Moyes too when we hired him. Punched above his weight, net spent, gets the best out of his player, gives chances to youth players, builds a team and so on., failing to understand that not winning a trophy in 11 seasons is far from justifiable if the manager is really a top manager.

    Now, Pochetino is a far superior manager compared to Moyes. He does everything better than Moyes, there is no doubt there. This is also just his fourth season at Spurs, so we should probably be a bit patient on judging him. But in my opinion, the time is running out for him to win a trophy if he wants to really be rated as a top manager, and either then constantly win trophies, or go to a club which gives him the platform to do so.

    NB: A better comparison to Pochetino would be Spalletti. Like Pochetino, he did good recruitment, played good football and built teams better than what they should have done with their resources. However, he never managed to crack winning trophies. I made the comparison with Moyes because people here are more familiar with Moyes, and because Spalletti actually managed to win Coppa Italia twice.
  37. Feb 8, 2018

    Revan Assumptionman

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    I think that I got confused. I remember him starting playing for Sherwood and scoring some goals, and then Glaston starting his posts with the Kane train. Somehow, I thought that Pochetino joined Spurs at the middle of next season, not at the beginning.

    So yep, I take that back, and credit where is due for making Kane a top 3 - top 5 striker in the world.
  38. Feb 8, 2018

    GM K Full Member

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    Poch will be a very good risk for any top club but still a risk.

    People forget that life at the elite clubs is tough for managers. The pressure to deliver in those clubs can be absolutely insane. Performance must be firmly placed within this context.

    A manager like Poch is setting himself up nicely to be seriously considered by the elite clubs. No doubt about that.

    But no one should be in doubt that when he does land one of those big jobs, he will still need to prove himself because he is not there yet. Meanwhile, it will do his reputation a world of good if he wins some silverware before then. Forget about money spent, Spurs is definitely at that level where they can win trophies now. There's no excuse for not winning anything now. Take two seasons ago for example. It was one of those very rare seasons when United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool stuttered almost throughout the season. While people praised Spurs for coming second, I thought it was pretty much indicative of how Poch could be a manager that cracks under pressure. There was no better season for Spurs to have won the PL title than that season. Losing it to Leicester City, cast some doubts on Poch's desire and ability to win silverware when the opportunity is there.

    I don't want to join those who say that until he wins something, he is no good but I want to be with those who are realistic about how today's football world works: to roll with the big boys, you have to win the big trophies. Maybe a top club will give him his shot but when he does have that shot, he won't have the pressure free atmosphere that Spurs gives him. He WILL have to deliver and deliver fast. Does he have what it takes to do that? No one can really tell until he gets his shot or at least until he delivers some trophies at Spurs.
  39. Feb 8, 2018

    Akshay Moderator Staff

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    Spalletti's a very good comparison point actually.
  40. Feb 8, 2018

    hellohello Full Member

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    Revisionism at its finest... It is so convenient to forget that Arsenal, Man City as well as Spurs were chasing Leicester.

    Round 24
    Leicester: 50pts
    Man C: 47 pts
    Tottenham: 45 pts
    Arsenal: 45 pts

    Round 34
    Leicester: 73
    Tottenham: 68
    Arsenal: 63
    Man C: 61

    Spurs were 5 points behind and Leicester managed to maintain that gap. Both teams had a great run of 2.3ppg which (if maintained) gives a 87.4 points season. Most people know what happened next, Spurs drew to Chelsea and collapsed from disappointment of being out of the title race. I would say that the pressure of the title race did not affect our form but meeting Chelsea away (next and prior years champions). In fact, both teams dealt with the pressure well. You can't hold losing to Leicester in a race where Spurs were the only team that kept pace for as long as they did againt Pochettino but give other managers a pass because they 'stuttered', completely unfair.

    Does he need to win to be considered a 'great'? Sure, but people pretending he 'should' have won something forget how difficult it is to win. Having said that, this season the FA cup is very important for us.