A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by NotBrendanRodgers honest, Jan 15, 2018.

  1. Feb 8, 2018

    RedSky likes to kick 10-year-olds Scout

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    I thought this but the situations are a bit different. TV money revenue is massive now even compared to when the Emirates was built. Tottenhams net spend in the last 4 seasons hasnt even gone above 40m euros. An average of 10m euros spent each season. Ask yourself therefore wheres the TV money gone? They dont have high wages, they havent been spending, no greedy owners. I dont know Spurs finances well enough to guess, Spurs fans could help with this. But there must be a large chunk of money thats been saved for the Stadium each season. I also dont know the estimate of the stadium price? @spursfans

    My guess is they dont need to sell to finance the stadium, they've already got it covered.
  2. Feb 8, 2018

    hellohello Full Member

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    Yup, don't need to sell to finance the stadium as far as I'm aware. But of course we still won't have the financial power as City, ManU, Real, PSG or Barca which means we can't offer the same wages either.
  3. Feb 8, 2018

    theyneverlearn and this one probably never will

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    I'd imagine that they would need to continue finishing in the European places and high up the table to continue to finance the debt generated, and also attempt to maintain the quality of squad.

    It will be a tough few years for Spurs IMO. The estimated cost of the build has nearly doubled from 400million - 800/1bn depending where you read the information. This extra money borrowed will only be eating into any profit margin they currently have. If they see a fall in European money, plus less gate receipts due to not having these games, then big offers for players will look more appealing.

    I'd hope that they can sustain their current level and push on, wouldn't want to see a club doing it the right way drop off the radar just as they're coming good.
  4. Feb 8, 2018

    Bill.s.preston Fluffybunnykins - needs to bulk up (with cake!)

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    That season made me doubt Poch because he sacrificed the Europa league in the last 16 against Dortmund by fielding weakened sides. Spurs haven't won a trophy for years and he threw it away, supposedly to win the league and ended up with nothing. Liverpool knocked Dortmund out in the following round if I recall correctly, and managed to get to the final.
  5. Feb 8, 2018

    NoLogo Full Member

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    So by your logic you would go for Ranieri over Poch? Sounds like a valid strategy. Serisouly though there are things that make managers good managers beyond the trophies they have won, like I said especially in this day and age it's getting more and more rare to win trophies if you aren't already managing a top team.
  6. Feb 8, 2018

    MrBest Full Member

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    Whether they are good managers is entirely a different debate. People don't remember the team that played amazing but finished 3rd or the team that played amazing scores 50 goals but got knocked out in the semi final.
    You are judged by winning trophies and your ability to. Poch has a great team and is a brilliant manager but winning that final takes am extra bit of tactical know how which he don't have yet. If you want to take my logic as literal as you have then that's fine because life is not black and white. I wouldn't take either poch or ranieri - maybe would of taken ranieri 10 years ago when he was at Chelsea, he won it everywhere. Just so your clear on my point, I would hate to not get the absolute best manager because a team like united cannot afford to keep missing out on trophies, we are that big. We have huge sponsorship deals with massive companies that depend on performance and that will be at risk the more we miss out on winning. Secondly in the 90s United's fan recruitment model was easy, win and then recruit. Our fan base ages and that recruitment acquisition is harder so naturally our fan base reduces as we win less.
  7. Feb 8, 2018

    hellohello Full Member

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    Not all gambles pay off, and to fail doesn't mean he can't learn from them. I agree that playing a weakened team was a mistake, but he gambled on being able to come back to WHL with a result, it didn't pay off.
  8. Feb 8, 2018

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    The other managers didn't get a pass. Apart from Arsene Wenger (who is apparently unsackable) every single manager at a club with aspirations of winning the league was sacked either during that season or at the end of it. Which is what made that season such a terrible waste of an opportunity for Poch/Spurs. I don't think he'll ever get another season where City, United and Liverpool are all simultaneously afflicted with dead men walking. That's a once in a lifetime set of circumstances. Fair play to Ranieri for grasping the chance with both hands but Spurs really should have finished ahead of Leicester.
  9. Feb 8, 2018

    NoLogo Full Member

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    Certainly winning trophies is in terms of historic viewing of your standing the most important thing but again you totally avoid the point that I'm making that within the last 5-10 years it has become almost impossible to winning any noteworthy trophy with a small team.

    I also don't agree that won trophies should be the prime aspect in choosing a manager. Van Gaal has won it all as well and turned out to be a massive mistake, which by the way some people on here saw coming a mile away. A manager needs to fit the club that wants to hire him in terms of philosophy and attitude but that leads us to an entire different problem that we don't have any of that. I wouldn't be surprised if the next manager after Mou will favor a completely different style of football to him again.

    I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that I think you overrate the experience of winning trophies on the success a manager might have at a club. One thing it certainly helps with though is bringing the best players into the club, which certainly is a big helping stone in winning further trophies.
  10. Feb 8, 2018

    GlastonSpur Also disliked on an Aston Villa forum

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    Financially speaking, the "tough few years" for Spurs have for the most part already happened - hence our very low net spend on transfers for at least the last 5 years, coupled with a strict wages structure.

    This is why I keep saying that to some extent Spurs have "pre-loaded" austerity - i.e. we've been diverting most of our spare money for years into - and saving up for - the new stadium project. And this is why the dire predictions of a coming financial need to sell our best players are very wide of the mark ... all the more so considering the huge boost to our income that will come from the new stadium (and the continuing rise in club income that has already occurred: this season will see it reach yet another club record).

    The new stadium is already fully-funded to completion. Yes, there will of course be some debt to pay off, but this will be easily manageable relative to club income and spending. And the club doesn't create future budgets based on anticipated or hoped-for CL football: such income is treated as a bonus.
  11. Feb 8, 2018

    GlastonSpur Also disliked on an Aston Villa forum

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    Not quite true: he ended up with qualification for CL football.
  12. Feb 8, 2018

    Bill.s.preston Fluffybunnykins - needs to bulk up (with cake!)

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    Maybe spurs can put that in their trophy room.
  13. Feb 8, 2018

    GlastonSpur Also disliked on an Aston Villa forum

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    It's not a trophy, but it's still an achievement that brings big benefits: money and attractiveness to players.
  14. Feb 8, 2018

    Bill.s.preston Fluffybunnykins - needs to bulk up (with cake!)

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    A players perspective then.

    Rooney on Kane.

  15. Feb 8, 2018

    GM K Full Member

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    You clearly read into my post what I was not saying. I didn't give other managers a pass as you insinuated. And yes, I maintain my point about it being a season where the usual top four teams stuttered. If they didn't, no way would Leicester City have won the league that season, no disrespect to them.

    You did hit the point when you said Spurs 'collapsed'. That was one of my main points. The collapse was part of what made me wonder about Poch.

    Your post was obviously to make a case for him. No need for that. I commended him in my post. My only issue is that he still has things to prove. Whether at Spurs or elsewhere, he still needs to win trophies to be ranked among the elites of football management. That is a reality of modern day football.
  16. Feb 8, 2018

    Hitchez New Member

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    Maybe it's just me but people are getting far too caught up with the fact that he hasn't won any trophies. Almost as if they're trying to convince themselves that he isn't very good. Is it really that shocking that a manager has sacrificed the chance of winning the odd league cup or FA cup in favour having a go at the league or the top 4 on a far smaller budget than the teams he's competing with? Would Spurs fans really prefer a 6th place finish with a league cup or finish in the top 4? Would Kane's desire to win trophies be satisfied with a cup win? I somehow doubt all of that. Give me a

    Not saying he's a perfect manager but people seem to be really underplaying him and his achievements and it's hard to understand why. If you can't even credit him for Kane's rise then it would seem you're not being totally fair on him.
  17. Feb 8, 2018

    breakout67 Full Member

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    'Very' good is stretching it; as an example Simeone won the league, Copa del Rey, EL and got to two CL finals with Atletcio Madrid. Another example, Klopp won back to back leagues, DFB cup and a CL final with Dortmund.

    Both of these managers had to overcome huge odds. In fact, I would say that what they did is far more difficult than winning the PL; because both the BundesLiga and La Liga are heavily stacked in the favour of one or two clubs. The PL has a much more even distribution in quality due to the money in the league (and generally has lower quality as well so winning the league requires less quality).

    For a long time, the PL has been the 'best of the worst' because the league winners have shown to have a lower level to the top clubs in Europe. It got to such a point that Leicester won the league because all the big clubs in the league were so bad. I can be confident in saying that Simeone would have won the PL if he was were here during this period.
  18. Feb 8, 2018

    Hitchez New Member

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    I don't think it's stretching it all. Simeone was fantastic and possibly one of the biggest managerial achievements in recent times (behind Ranieiri I suppose). You won't see me downplaying his achievements. Klopp was very good although it has to be said that Bayern weren't the juggernaut they are no back then. Still, none of that takes away from the fact Pochhetino has been very good as well.

    Not entirely sure if I agree with the idea that the PL is easier to win. It may be of a lesser quality but that's not the same as it being easier to win especially for a team like Spurs. Leicester was a complete one off.

    Edit - 5 posts up. Can't reply back!
  19. Feb 8, 2018

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    Poch is overrated. He finished 3rd once, which is great.

    But with the squad he has 4-6th position is on par.
  20. Feb 8, 2018

    Cheesy Bread with dipping sauce Scout

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    He finished 2nd last season too. With the resources the club have 6th's about as good as they should generally be doing.
  21. Feb 8, 2018

    ThierryHenry14 New Member

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    If trophy is the only measurement of how great a manager is no matter what budget he is working with, well Mou probably should be careful about his job this season as Man Utd's wage budget and transfer spending are on par with City for the past 5 years, and only behind PSG, Real Madrid and Barcelona. So Man Utd should be fighting for the league title, and should get into last 4 of CL every season.
  22. Feb 8, 2018

    Revan Assumptionman

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    No-one can't argue that him finishing 3rd and 2nd in the last season was superb. However, a lot can be said that he should have won a trophy by now and/or should win something in the near future, be it this season or the next one. Otherwise, we are taking for a better Moyes whom creates good teams with limited budget and doesn't threaten to win trophies.

    For what is worth, I would like to see him remain at Spurs and hopefully Kane does too. It would be very interesting to see how far can a club go by doing it in the right way.
  23. Feb 8, 2018

    Revan Assumptionman

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    Mourinho shouldn't care much about how much money we spent before he came here considering that managers were totally different and played different style, and a lot of those players have already left. Since he has come, Pep has spent twice as much as Mourinho. And while the wages are similar, United reports the wages of football, non-football, directors, ambassadors and all of that while City reports the salaries of only their football staff. So, it is more United all employees (circa 700) versus City's football stuff, with the wages being similar (United 10m or so higher).
  24. Feb 9, 2018

    NW10 New Member

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    Agreed, I think deep down everyone knows all that. I think the issue here is spurs are a threat and apart from City the other teams in the prem have struggled recently.

    But yeah with the budget and spend he has Jose has underachieved and I suspect he will end this season doing so again. Next season is bigger for him than Potcho as Potcho is continuously overachieving and shouldn't be under any pressure. If spurs get into that new stadium with CL football they'll have an even better chance to compete for the prem and CL.
  25. Feb 9, 2018

    gajender Full Member

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    Agreed Mourinho would be under immense pressure to deliver next season but so would Pochetinno if he isn't then Tottenham are well on their way to turn into another Arsenal, Tottenham have done well but they need to make the next step according to most they have a great manager , great team on par with the best in league so what's stopping them from winning the league if the excuse is money then it's not going to change that greatly with the new stadium either.
  26. Feb 9, 2018

    ThierryHenry14 New Member

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    if he isn't then Tottenham are well on their way to turn into another Arsenal
    -It will be a great achievement for Poch to turn Tottenham into another Arsenal from revenue and turnover's perspective. If i am Levy I will give him a job for life if he can do that. This is also the reason why Wenger is almost untouchable in Arsenal.

    they need to make the next step according to most they have a great manager , great team on par with the best in league so what's stopping them from winning the league
    -see Monaco last season vs this, and BVB, or even Arsenal before 2013. Their best player being pick up by richer team every season (see the ongoing discussion about the future of Kane). Their players want higher wages that is offered else where (See Rose). Manager need to rebuild the team every season, rather than improve from a basis. That is basically what Conte is complaining about chelsea's transfer policy as well. For next step, Poch can do what Arsene Wenger did back then with Arsenal, is to grow with Tottenham together, or go to a team with bigger budget than Spurs.

    if the excuse is money then it's not going to change that greatly with the new stadium either
    -See arsenal with new stadium. It is not an excuse, it is the reality. That is basically what Wenger recently talked about as well. The new stadium didn't stop Sanchez's move to man utd because of higher chance to win trophy there, and higher salary. The reason for Man Utd to have higher chance to win trophy, is because of resource available there.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  27. Feb 9, 2018

    Guy Incognito Full Member

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    They will almost certainly be selling players, the construction cost has skyrocketed and will be over £1 billion. If they don't win anything this or next season, and United/City/Real come in with silly money for Kane, Levy will consider it.
  28. Feb 9, 2018

    Hitchez New Member

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    Would him winning say a league cup really change that much?

    The other things he's accomplished since he's been at Spurs, namely promotion and getting the best of young players, defensively solid, improvement in and consistency of league form, improvement in Champions league after a torrid first season, tactically strong performances etc.. are these not better indicators of a managers talents than getting lucky with a cup win. This is without into account that the league has always been a priority and cup competitions always have tat element of luck involved with them.
  29. Feb 9, 2018

    Revan Assumptionman

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    I think so. Spurs aren't a club that has won a lot of trophies. Their last trophy is league cup 10 years ago. Their last important trophy is FA Cup in 1991. Even domestic cups for them in the last 30 years are as rare as UCL for us, so of course that winning some trophy for Spurs is extremely important. They can act as high as they want that they are a big club and prefer to play in UCL, but an FA Cup trophy actually tops any season they have had in the last 25 years.

    Southampton and Espanyol are even more starved for trophies, so him not having won a trophy ever in his career is a black mark. Make yourself a question: which top manager didn't win anything during his first 9 years as a manager? If the answer is none, then why Pochetino should actually be considered in the same level as them.

    He is a good manager though, but until he starts winning trophies, he is not in the elite group.
  30. Feb 9, 2018

    Revan Assumptionman

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    Arsenal are a significantly bigger club than Spurs, so Pochetino would do a brilliant job in turning Spurs into an another Arsenal.

    And well, Arsenal have won in the last 4 years more trophies (and more important ones) than Spurs in the last 30 years. Spurs fan can hope for Spurs to turn into an another Arsenal.
  31. Feb 9, 2018

    el3mel Full Member

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    I don't think anyone denies that he's a good manager.

    The point is the level of expectations for him at Spurs won't be the same at a real big club. At Spurs playing good football and finishing 3rd or 4th is great and the excuse of him not having enough resources is ready. In big club this will be considered a disappointed season. Spurs can play some poor games here and there and no one will care, at a big club one bad result is enough to build the pressure on you. He'll get higher resources but at the same time will be asked to deliver much higher results and adapt to a higher level of expectation.

    Till he either wins something with Spurs or move to a big club and proves his ability to adapt with continuous pressure and the need of winning silverware continuously, he'll be considered a good manager only, fair and square.
  32. Feb 9, 2018

    NoLogo Full Member

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    Let's be realistic but with the amount of money us and City are spending in the transfermarket expecting Tottenham to really compete is a bit outlandish. They would have to pull of a surprise season and I feel for that they simply are too depending on Kane's goals and their overall squad depth isn't really good either. They will fight for fourth place again, everything else will be a massive surprise. The comparison with BVB and Monaco imo isn't too far of, they are pretty much in that tier of clubs and will sooner or later have to let their best players go to the biggest clubs in Europe, just like the other two.
  33. Feb 9, 2018

    Hitchez New Member

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    Oh I agree, he's not an elite manager yet. He'll need to win the bigger trophies with either Spurs or another club to be regarded in that bracket.

    I do disagree with the idea that he'd somehow be considered a better manager if he had won a league cup or something. It wouldn't really change my perception of him. Fact of the matter is Spurs are not incentivized to go for a cup competition ahead of a top 4 finish. Of course they're not mutually exclusive but if you don't have the required squad size then it's tough to compete on all fronts.

    Roberto Martinez doesn't automatically become a better manager because he won the cup once.
  34. Feb 9, 2018

    RedSky likes to kick 10-year-olds Scout

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    Got a link to that? Or just rumour?
  35. Feb 9, 2018

    GlastonSpur Also disliked on an Aston Villa forum

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    As of May of last year, Spurs had spent £340 million from their own resources "on the acquisition of land, the planning process (including a compulsory purchase order and legal challenges) and build costs to date" - this £340m figure will have increased since then.
  36. Feb 9, 2018

    Guy Incognito Full Member

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    Re construction cost, https://www.football.london/tottenham-hotspur-fc/news/spurs-new-stadium-tottenham-cost-13988091

    If you have a look at the Skyscrapercity forums there's a thread on Spurs' construction with well-informed engineers, fans, etc. As for selling players, it's bound to happen. Much is made of Spurs' tight salary scale, but I imagine it'll be loosened once they move into the new stadium, some players might be in line for a 10% increase or something. But I'm certain if they don't win anything anytime soon, players will get itchy feet. I don't think Kane is one to force a move, but if Spurs were offered a deal too good to be turned down, they would accept it.
  37. Feb 9, 2018

    Denis79 Full Member

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    Don't think so either but one thing is a 100% certainty, Real Madrid are starting their re-building this summer. Most likely starting with Zidane and their attack. We'll see what manager and players they go for.

    Same fear we have about De Gea, other clubs should have about their stars. They have the money and pulling power to attract almost anyone, It's going to be a very interesting summer.
  38. Feb 9, 2018

    James Peril Full Member

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    Cool story bro.
  39. Feb 9, 2018

    ti vu Full Member

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    Their skill may not be better, but they're regarded in higher as they have proven given right circumstance they can win. Martinez relegated Wigan, but he got a stable Everton job, who at the time was looking to push for some more than boring midtable finish. Martinez was held at higher respect than he was when he started with Wigan. He ruined himself later. That's another story.

    Poch has moved up the ladder and proved himself as good coach. The question is whether he's stepped into the domain of coach who can lead ambitious team. Without actual achievement he is no better than Wenger unless you consider longevity of same finish (age). Wenger has long lost the top dog manager aura.
  40. Feb 9, 2018

    InLevyITrust Full Member

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    Why would we definitely be selling players because the stadium cost has increased?