Alexis Sanchez tax evasion

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Sambob, Feb 7, 2018.

  1. Feb 7, 2018

    Trigg aka Trippin_Stoned

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    They’re the same. But I know one is legal.

    Lewis Hamilton for example and his tax issue with a jet or whatever. That was seen as legal I think but in my eyes was morally wrong.

    Same with all the tax the big companies avoid or evade. Morally wrong in my eyes.
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  2. Feb 7, 2018

    ti vu Full Member

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    It is. Same with more and more players & coaches who spent time in Spain last decade are getting into this tax issue
  3. Feb 7, 2018

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    Did they change the rules then retrospectively go back and punish the players?
  4. Feb 7, 2018

    Acole9 Outstanding

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    We're never going to win the league if Sanchez doesn't pay his taxes.
  5. Feb 7, 2018

    ti vu Full Member

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    IIRC other discussion on this matter, people who familiar with this said that the regulation is loose to have a definite strict way to follow. It's not outlawed back then when many was doing. Now they interpret it different. The best way is to accept and pay the fine, since it's pointless to argue the cases, as there is no correct way. The people with the power in their hand hold all the key to what is right and wrong.
  6. Feb 7, 2018

    Ish Lights on for Luke

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    Agreed. It’s a weird one though. I guess I don’t see any issue with tax avoidance, if it’s done in a legal manner.

    Yeah, some go out with the sole intention of using the law, or loopholes therein, to evade tax. That becomes a very grey and questionable area.

    Thanks CM. Guess not everyone can agree on everything. The beauty of life :lol:

    This.
  7. Feb 7, 2018

    harshad Play the odds, not the man Scout

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    Well they are fundamentally different things.
  8. Feb 7, 2018

    JK-27 Full Member

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    He's not the only one, and it's hard to tell if he and others (Messi, Modric, Ronaldo et al) did do something wrong, or the Spanish government are using them as political pawns.
  9. Feb 7, 2018

    ti vu Full Member

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    So now I re read the old discussion on tax policy on footballer & coaches, it can be summarized like this:

    1. Spanish tax policy is different than let's say British, hence Mourinho Ronaldo made same statement on their case that they didn't have problem doing similar/ same thing in England. Perhaps, Mendez connection, but point stands. With this, I don't think the debate on morality is warranted.

    2. The grey area in this is how Spanish tax policy ain't very specify about taxable items on players and coaches' tax bill: Global brand (image right), income within Spain border... For example, players and coaches may have contract with sponsors, established their own brand prior to their time in Spain. The brands, there are companies who take care of their image didn't have problem with tax system in other countries. We know these companies often started in countries with lower tax rate, or with many exempt to taxable items. However, question is still raised if the money is paid out in other countries, why Spanish tax system is the one to tax.

    Spanish tax texts ain't specifically restrict, regulated on this at the time either by the sound of it. Time passed, and the interpretation of the same rule is different. The players and coaches' side can't argue as now the authority said the rules mean like this from beginning. There is no counter.

    Not many fancy themselves in Spain forever. For example, Madrid job is pressure cooker, and the record is clear that not many last long. Someone who likes Mourinho who openly prefer staying in England long term. Of course, their base would not moved to Spain. Treating a short stay same as long term resident in tax bill is questionable too, as these also have to carter to their citizen duty to pay tax to their homeland countries.

    3. The clubs who employed these guys push for, work with these tax scheme. Just focusing on individuals workers instead of the employers is not fair. These employers were based within the country, so questions should be asked about these clubs.

    The point is this whole thing is not so black and white. Many questions have no correct answer. What if there is no hero in this whole thing?
  10. Feb 7, 2018

    rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks

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    Political pawns? :lol:
  11. Feb 7, 2018

    girish I too love women...for their shoes.

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    This is definitely money over Pep.
  12. Feb 7, 2018

    diplomat Banned

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    It would be much fairer to the lower classes in society to just remove taxes completely, as only the rich can afford to "plan" their taxation and use their vast resources in order to find the many loopholes in the different countries' legislations, who "accidentally" are also created by other parts of the higher echelon of citizens.

    Of course, many posters here, who benefit form saving a lot of money by doing this type of shady business, would be having no problems with such practices. It's still fecking bollocks to me though and I believe such people should be ashamed of themselves, although it will never happen in a million years.
  13. Feb 7, 2018

    David Court Banned

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    They are not the same

    Evasion is illegal, avoidance isn't
  14. Feb 7, 2018

    David Court Banned

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    Here's a more relevant question.

    Given Sanchez is guilty of tax fraud, a criminal offence, he should be denied a work permit to work in the U.K.
  15. Feb 7, 2018

    svastian99 New Member

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    Almost the same happened to him as to Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar and many others. It is a problem of how taxes are paid by clubs in Spain. The problem, they had to have solved Alexis agent -Club and Treasury, I do not see Alexis thinking about how to evade taxes. It is interesting to note that only the foreigners of that league have had problems.
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  16. Feb 8, 2018

    cyril C Full Member

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    Apparently it was best practice in Spanish football clubs a few years ago in dodging image right and other stuff. I believe it was more to do with lousy tax accountants and poor advisors who failed their customers. Sue the accountants.

    p.s. I was wondering whether Beckham never has trouble with the Spanish tax authority.
  17. Feb 8, 2018

    clarkydaz Full Member

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    Don't forget Jose himself recently had to return to Spain to answer tax investigation. Seems to be clear as mud over there
  18. Feb 8, 2018

    RedCurry Full Member

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    If losses provide tax relief then on the other hand gains provide tax burden. If there is indeed a loss then it’s only logical to get taxed lesser on the gains.

    Tax avoidance has nothing to do with morals at all. Most of in developed countries have retirement accounts that help us avoid taxes. If you own a rental property and get rent but also spend on fixing the roof, you avoid a portion of tax on the rent. It’s not wrong by any means, those laws specifically exist to tax you only on “net” gains.
  19. Feb 8, 2018

    jojojo Moderator Staff

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    The "Beckham Law" as they nicknamed it was a tax system that applied to foreigners in the first five years they were in Spain. What it meant was that Spain only taxed earnings from within Spain and only taxed his Spanish earnings at 25%. That law has been abolished. Ronaldo was one of the last players to benefit from it, he's now on normal Spanish tax.

    Spanish residents are taxed on global earnings. Tax residence is defined as living in the country for more than 6 months in a calendar year.

    There was a special provision for footballers in tax law to set up retirement funds (that could pay out at the end of their career, not at 65 or whatever) and another one that allowed them to channel a percentage of their image rights earnings to companies.

    The tax office argue that those concessions always had to be for investment in real pensions and for operating real businesses. Most of them weren't, a popular one with Spanish players was buying a great villa and nice boat in Ibiza and describing it as a rental business - that operated at a loss because it never got any rentals. The issue for the foreign players was some of them had more subtle schemes involving tax havens, and some of them only declared Spanish income not global income.

    It's mostly Barca and Madrid players that we hear about because they've got most of the high paid players, and most of the famous foreign stars who do have global image rights income as well as Spanish wages.
  20. Feb 8, 2018

    Sparky Rhiwabon Full Member

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    No wonder the press were quoting his wages pre and post tax interchangeably, he doesn't pay any tax!!
  21. Feb 8, 2018

    klayton88 Full Member

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    I don't avoid tax, I just evade it.
  22. Feb 8, 2018

    Trigg aka Trippin_Stoned

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    I know there's a difference in the legality between them, I've said as much. I was replying with what I think is morally right or wrong.

    I just hate the thought of people not being able to turn their heating on, or not having enough food on the table or the NHS being at breaking point all the while millionaires save billions with these tax loop holes - be they legal or otherwise.
  23. Feb 8, 2018

    ajf75 Banned

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    If you pay more than you need to, yes - such a person is feeding the profligacy of the state. If you feel after minimising the tax you pay that you still want to pay more, I repeat, you should give the balance to charity instead - it’s more efficient and you get to send the money directly to where you (the person who after all earned it) want it to go. Surely this is not controversial?
  24. Feb 8, 2018

    Wilt New Member

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    It's Spanish tax ....couldn't care less
  25. Feb 8, 2018

    Fridge chutney Full Member

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    Isn't it wrong of governments to retroactively change tax law and collect and charge on that basis?

    Spanish government sounds corrupt. Like a cash-grab to fund their economic mismanagement. There's no coincidence that so many from Barca and Real are being targeted.
  26. Feb 8, 2018

    Aint gota Kalou Full Member

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    What you've described isn't tax avoidance.

    For example look at this: http://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/hm-rev...eases/tax-avoidance-film-scheme-flops-2312539

    Theres not a lot of detail but you get the point. Guy invests 5 mill, gets 19m losses to reduce his tax burden. That's avoidance that I'm referring to.
  27. Feb 8, 2018

    Giggs86 Full Member

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    Now he reminds me even more of Messi :drool:
  28. Feb 8, 2018

    Idxomer New Member

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    Tax evasion, Doping and sex scandals. What's next? stealing Conte's wig in broad daylight.
  29. Feb 8, 2018

    RedCurry Full Member

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    What I described is tax avoidance. The strategy in the article you've linked is, in some countries considered a tax avoidance and in others it's considered evasion. Tax laws are complicated but if it's within the law, it's avoidance and if you breach the law it's evasion.
  30. Feb 8, 2018

    Aint gota Kalou Full Member

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    I would class what you described as tax planning, what I linked as tax avoidance - they didn't break the law, they abused the loop holes in it.

    Getting hung up on definitions is probably a bit silly anyways, think we both agree that when you are purposely abusing a law to benefit in a way which was not intended - youre in murky waters morals wise.
  31. Feb 8, 2018

    Wal2Fra Full Member

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    Explains why he chose United instead of playing for free under Pep.

    How could we think it was down to history and club size!?
  32. Feb 8, 2018

    ajf75 Banned

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    You do understand percentages, right? 20% of a school dinner lady’s wage is peanuts. 15% of sanchez’s earnings are a small fortune. We should be grateful that high earners want to play in this country because the tax we get in when they do is massive. In fact, we should offer them all a 15% flat tax rate because they’d all come here and we would be absolutely raking it in. We can’t rely on the weather to attract them, can we? Of course certain quarters would immediately bleat that it’s “unfaaaaair” and would thereby convince the gullible that it’s better to have them playing in China or somewhere else so that they give us feck all money. Much “fairer”!
  33. Feb 8, 2018

    rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks

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    Of course, that's why I wrote the word percentage. Not just tax, tax percentage.
    Stupidest fecking idea I've ever heard. If we were a country of 100 thousand, then sure that could work, but the UK is a country of 65 million people. 15% is less effective tax than someone earning £46k a year pays. Also, you think the rich would come to this country to pay 15% tax? Why, when they could be registered in Bermuda and pay 1% income tax? So why would they come to this country? Also, we already have the system you are describing in the form of dividends and other tax breaks.
    Dear Rich People. Thank you for earning so much money. We really appreciate all the money you earn by owning the homes we rent and paying us the historically low wages for the work we do. If you would be so kind, please could you pay the full taxes you are meant to by law, so I can get surgery at some point next year.

    Yours, truly, robocop.
  34. Feb 8, 2018

    jojojo Moderator Staff

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    In financial and football terms, Europe is where the action is. The top rate of tax across most of Europe is more or less the same - around 45/50%. The players are paid with our money whether that's via TV or ticket or the sponsors. They can afford to pay their taxes. If they really don't want to, then personally I'm happy for them to go and play in China or Dubai or on the moon for that matter.

    As to the tax cases in the UK and Spain. I'm not going to judge the players too harshly. I've seen people smarter than them get involved in tax scams. I've seen people richer than them get away with paying less tax. A lot of people hear the advice that says, "you don't have to pay" and combine it with the phrase "only the mugs do" and think it's worth a go. Even if they do understand the risk, a lot of them are gamblers by nature - and will take the risk.
  35. Feb 8, 2018

    ZAGREB RED Full Member

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    Seems to be par for the course big name players in Spain getting embroiled in this type of stuff.
  36. Feb 8, 2018

    supermao New Member

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    I think it's probably far more widespread then just "big name players", when RM signed Ødegaard he was offered such a scheme but declined.
  37. Feb 8, 2018

    Arbitrium Taking a year off

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    I think it’s gotten to the stage now where the most likely explanation is Spain needs money.
  38. Feb 8, 2018

    ajf75 Banned

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    It is an unfortunate fact that being lenient on the rich brings in more tax over all - because it reduces their incentive to avoid it. How did Blair and Brown manage to fund that massive splurge in the 00’s? It wasn’t by having a 50% tax rate. When the brought that in we got less. But hey, why let a few facts ruin a good rant? Frankly, if he helps us beat City in a final, I’d let Alexis Sanchez off all tax entirely, and set him up in Buckingham Palace with a lifetime’s supply of Ivory back scratchers and ass’s milk. At least on that I’m sure we can agree.
  39. Feb 9, 2018

    rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks

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    Put the tax to 100% and government brings in no money.
    Put the tax to 0% and government brings in no money.

    There is a series of optional ranges in the middle where government can bring in a lot of money in a uncomplicated way whilst letting the econome brrathe. A 15% flat rate is not one of thrm. Where is your evidence for that?

    Often reducing income tax or any tax will bring in substantial revenue for HMRC in the short term, because people who have either been keeping their money away to avoid it being taxed heavily choose to finally bring it in to light whilst the lower band is available, or people who were going to be taxed in a few years time anyway bring that forward to be taxed at a lower band rate.

    This is true from everything from VAT (would you wait to buy the new £1000 TV until January 1st when VAT is 15% or Nov when vat is 20%?) To income tax and corporation tax.

    But in the long term, the apparent revenue being brought in peter's off. The money moved into this tax year or this tax bracket is not new wealth, just wealth that already existed being moved around.

    Of course all reductions in tax help the economy if the government can absorb it. Imagine a you live in a 100 apartment condo where 50% of them are empty. If the landlord reduces rent, more people move in, and those that are already living there have more money to spend on TVs and holidays.

    I consider myself mostly liberterian, so I'm really in complete agreement that reducing taxes is good for the economy.

    But a flat rate of 15%? Where is the evidence that that could possibly bring in anywhere near as much money as a high upper level tax rate?
  40. Mar 1, 2018

    ajf75 Banned

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    OK - 15% was a bit of a guess, but Russia and Ukraine did it successfully at a lower rate in the early 00's. More pertinently, the Baltic states are currently flat in the low 20s. They are doing nicely there. It works.