ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by sammsky1, Jan 2, 2010.

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  1. Oct 6, 2010

    datura Full Member

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    A substandard bag of meat and bones.
    You appear to have missed the point, which is that they are not run the same way as us so any comparisons financially are meaningless and just trying to put some positive spin on our situation (ie the opposite of what you are accusing Anders of).

    He didn't say we were 'doomed'. All he highlighted is how a decline in performance on the pitch could possibly hit our finances.
  2. Oct 6, 2010

    TheMancRedDevil Banned

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    I think you must have had a hard day or something datura.

    The post of mine you quoted (scroll up and read it) actually said:-

    "When people worry about our future success, it is the likes of Manchester City and Chelsea who, were it not for the FFP Regs, would provide our most serious threat."

    In other words, yes, if things carried on as they are and Mansour and Abramovich are able to give their managers £100-200million per season to spend on players, the future would look pretty bleak. Not just for us but football as a whole, I would suggest - but that's definitely another tangent.

    I am not really discussing the FFPs, merely trying to respond to Anders' new slant of "we'd be fecked if we won nowt" line and trying to establish who, exactly, will be standing in our way to the silverware that would give rise to such a scenario in the coming years.
  3. Oct 6, 2010

    datura Full Member

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    A substandard bag of meat and bones.
    No, the initial post I responded to was:

  4. Oct 6, 2010

    Crerand Legend Banned

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    Out of respct to GB's request I wont respond to this post
  5. Oct 6, 2010

    TheMancRedDevil Banned

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    Ok. Fair enough but I thought that there had been sufficient posts between that one and the one where you went on about not being a mind-reader or something for you to understand why I specifically mentioned Chelsea and City and why their financial situation is relevant to us and our future chances of remaining competitive.

    I can't actually believe that I have had to spell it out to you, to be honest. You were giving me accountancy lessons last night.
  6. Oct 6, 2010

    datura Full Member

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    A substandard bag of meat and bones.
    You can't say that we will maintain our current level of performance just because of the effect of the FFP regs on 2 sides (which at the moment no one knows how they will affect teams). It's a rather tenuous argument at best.

    Football is generally cyclical in nature and it is unlikely that we will maintain the same level of success as we've enjoyed for an extended period, particularly given the imminent retirement of our best manager of all time and some key players.
  7. Oct 6, 2010

    Julian Denny Full Member

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    It's key isn't it. Keeping revenues going at recent historic levels with costs contained depsite not being able to keep the same level of success on the pitch. Arsenal seem to have achieved it. I think it's all about keeping the expectation there, qualifying for the ECL, even if trophies aren't an end product and playing entertaining and generally attractive football. I'm not sure we can do that with the current set up.
  8. Oct 6, 2010

    TheMancRedDevil Banned

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    The FFP Regs are designed to get football teams only spending what they earn and remove the effect of billionaire sugar-daddies. That much we do know. How it will work in practice, remains to be seen. But, unless we ourselves had a billionaire sugar-daddy with as much or more money than Mansour (who I believe is closer to being a dollar trillionaire!) then everything being argued at the moment would still apply under any ownership regime we might have at United, wouldn't it?

    If the FFP Regs do prove to be a success then it provides a more level playing field and the club that can bring in the most money has as good a chance of being competitive as anyone, doesn't it?

    FFP Regs or no FFP Regs, I think there'd have to be a feck up of epic proportions to end up mid-table as Anders was suggesting.

    I hear what you're saying about football being cyclical and it being unlikely that we will maintain the success for an extended period and every year for the last twenty years or so, I have gone into the season with a fear that this might be the season when the wheels finally fall off but it has yet to happen.

    Of course, we have Fergie's retirement on the horizon and this is the biggest threat to our wheels but we can only hope that whoever comes in doesn't end up doing a Wilf McGuinness and we have to have some faith that we will bring in a top-class manager and that the squad Fergie leaves behind will be strong enough to give the new man every chance of getting off to a good start in his new job. I don't see why it is necessarily going to mean a downturn in our fortunes.

    When it comes to the future - there's always more than one way of viewing it and my glass is always half-full.
  9. Oct 6, 2010

    ralphie88 Full Member

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    Two and sixpence? :eek:
  10. Oct 6, 2010

    topper Clown

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    wow thats much better than the Plc - god bless Uncle Malc
  11. Oct 6, 2010

    ralphie88 Full Member

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    You've been drinking again haven't you topper. Sangria?
  12. Oct 6, 2010

    topper Clown

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    yep and been employing my paint spray cans on the walls of my local massive fan saying I think Uncle Mal is wunnerful - haven't done the toms yet - he's hiding but I'll get the cnut - the Spaniards do some luverly toms ... what about you Ralphie whats the news on the United Underground - still manning the barricades ;)
  13. Oct 6, 2010

    TheMancRedDevil Banned

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    I notice on the MUST websites the Red Knights have been in great voice recently with a quote that should be right up your street ralphie...

    :lol: Is it just me or does the last part of that really let the first bit down quite badly?
  14. Oct 6, 2010

    ralphie88 Full Member

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    Still supporting the club topper, still supporting the club.
  15. Oct 6, 2010

    ralphie88 Full Member

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    Haha. Yes not exactly keeping the red flag flying.
  16. Oct 6, 2010

    topper Clown

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    nice to hear Ralphie - good lad - me here on the Costa I'll keep spraying away whilst the Euros last
  17. Oct 6, 2010

    ralphie88 Full Member

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    You should have come to Valencia. Although some of the chants would probably have made you blush.
  18. Oct 6, 2010

    ciderman9000000 Banned

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    :lol: is that for real?

  19. Oct 6, 2010

    topper Clown

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    I had a ticket but through some family illness had to cancel - I presume that the chants were about Uncle Malc and how you wanted to... er make love to him...


    PS it is a family forum after all :rolleyes:
  20. Oct 6, 2010

    TheMancRedDevil Banned

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  21. Oct 6, 2010

    ralphie88 Full Member

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    Oooh lots of nasty chants. You should have heard the stuff they were singing about Tevez too. It would have made a monkey blush.
  22. Oct 6, 2010

    topper Clown

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    the cnut deserves every verse he gets :D
  23. Oct 6, 2010

    peterstorey Specialist In Failure

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    I'd say it's a racing certainty that they took money out to pay down the PIKS on or about 31st July. The sum will, of course, be close to the magic £80M - cue shit storm - 'Ronaldo money used to pay down Glazer's debts' - 'Get rid of ManU's version of H&G'.
  24. Oct 6, 2010

    TheMancRedDevil Banned

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    Given that Andersred, MUST and the others have been saying that this will happen for the last 9-10 months or so, the Glazer's opponents have actually done them a big favour by psychologically preparing everyone for the "news".

    The press will undoubtedly do exactly what you have said there. Whether it comes as the enormous shock to United fans that they are hoping for remains to be seen however.

    It has actually got to the point where if the money does NOT come out at some point in the next 12 months' worth of accounts, most of us will be totally confused as to what the hell they're up to.
  25. Oct 6, 2010

    andersred Full Member

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    Blimey, it was just a point about the sensitivity of income to playing performance, ask a Liverpool supporter. It's about risk.

    I wasn't trying to scaremonger. Apologies if it came over that way.
  26. Oct 6, 2010

    Crerand Legend Banned

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    Don't know if the Ronaldo money has gone stateside yet but if hasn't it wont be long until it does. They know whenever it goes to pay their debt the press and opposing fans will have a field day, the Green and Gold will become even stronger. Perhaps if we had a successful season last term the reaction would not have been as bad as it is going to be now, but for the Glazers their toxic debt is more important than the club
  27. Oct 6, 2010

    peterstorey Specialist In Failure

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    He, he, there will be an even bigger shitstorm and massive 'I tole you so you fule' with burning of effigies. No wonder they kept it quiet.
  28. Oct 6, 2010

    Crerand Legend Banned

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    Some of us are above the underhand methods of the Glazers TMRD. As I said a successful season last time might have softened the blow but that didn't happen
  29. Oct 6, 2010

    GCHQ Glazer Crevice Headquarters

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    Cracking quote that!:lol:
  30. Oct 6, 2010

    robertsoncrusoe Thinks the mods have too much power..

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    At least the scousers have the balls and the wherewithal to dump their blood suckers!! Not like you bunch of dwarf loving apologists on here-
  31. Oct 6, 2010

    GCHQ Glazer Crevice Headquarters

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    Come on then Anders. Do you think the results on Friday will show that the dividend has been taken?

    And are you going to be open and honest about why the very significant accounting loss is meaningless due to the reasons which I've alluded to? You don't want me badgering you on your blog about goodwill amortisation again.
  32. Oct 6, 2010

    TheMancRedDevil Banned

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    It wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference either way.

    Last season the G&G campaign was in full voice and that was after we had won the three previous PLs and had reached two CL Finals (winning one).

    Look at the crap some people are coming out with this season already because we're a lowly third in the league after seven matches.
  33. Oct 6, 2010

    TheMancRedDevil Banned

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    Oh, come on Anders. It was definitely a, "Just saying..." kind of post.

    The ironic thing about what you posted is that the two things many fans hate about the Glazers the most (behind the debt, obviously) is the ticket price rises and what they see as "whoring out the brand".

    But these are two things which make us less vulnerable to the financial blow that might come as a result of a bad season or two.

    Presumably, a fan-based ownership would reduce ticket prices and stop "whoring out the brand" and so our ability to stay afloat would be almost totally reliant on Prize Money and TV revenues (which are largely interlinked anyway).
  34. Oct 6, 2010

    Crerand Legend Banned

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    If we had won PL or CL or if I may dream both it would have made the Ronaldo money transfer alot smoother. The anti Glazer feeling will snowball once they take this money to yankee land
  35. Oct 6, 2010

    TheMancRedDevil Banned

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    So, if we win the PL and/or CL this season, will you shut up?

    No. You won't. We'll be right back here next season having exactly the same conversation.

    Ronaldo's gone Crerand. He went a long time ago now. Time to move on. It was good while it lasted but all good things come to an end. The future's bright if you look in the right places.
  36. Oct 6, 2010

    Crerand Legend Banned

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    Keep your hair on, I was making a general observation on how most would have less bothered about the Ronaldo money had we been successful not taking any personal satisfaction in it. He is gone yes and we move on yes, the future? Only god he know.
  37. Oct 6, 2010

    TheMancRedDevil Banned

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    That's what Ronaldo said.
  38. Oct 6, 2010

    Crerand Legend Banned

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    Yip before the Glazers sold him :D
  39. Oct 7, 2010

    andersred Full Member

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    If you want me to guess, I'd say they haven't taken it. I only say that because I would have expected at least some minor warming up of the press if they had taken it. But maybe they just don't care about the press.

    On the g/w amortisation, I hereby swear to continue (as I always have) not to include it in any "profit" or "loss" figures.

    As we are doing requests GCHQ, make me a price (£2m spread say) on pre-exceptional EBITDA. I can make back my pint (incidentally I've been offered some Bursapor home tickets so I can buy you a beer then).
  40. Oct 7, 2010

    GCHQ Glazer Crevice Headquarters

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    That's my guess too. If that is indeed how things turn out on Friday then every Sports hack across the land is going to be ringing you at five minutes past eleven aksing why the dividend hasn't been taken yet. So what's your explanation going to be?

    I know you won't include the g/w amortisation in any ''profit'' and ''loss'' figures but what I'd like to see from you Anders is an effort to explain to people, including your journalist pals, why that g/w amortisation shouldn't be included. If the dividend hasn't been taken, then the fallback position in terms of negative coverage of the results is going to be the significant accounting loss. We can all see the headlines now. ''United (mufplc) announce c.£80m loss, look what happens when they can't sell a Ronaldo for £80m every year!'' Let's not forget the other c.£70m of either irrelevant non-cash losses/costs or exceptional refinancing costs. Maybe I'm asking too much from you there so g/w amortisation would be a welcome starting point.

    Thinking of ending the old boycott already eh? Poor move I'd say. You'd be better off sticking it out for at least this season.

    I will plump for pre-exceptional EBITDA of £94m, 93-95.
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