Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Brwned, Feb 2, 2013.
I was worried that if I came up against a team with really good wingers who hold thier width then my full backs would be often preoccupied and perhaps not be able to get forward, and provide the width, with regularity. As it is with thhe narrow set ups they should have plenty of opportunities to attack and provide quality crosses for Eusebio and in particular Kocsis, arguably the greatest header-er() of all time. Cannavaro is a great player but is only a little fella and has no chance winning an aerial battle with my strikers.
Is Zanetti a good crosser? I don't remember Krol being particularly strong in that area either. Bit of a shame to see some great headers not being utilised anywhere near as well as they could be.
Is Beckenbauer given a specific job on Maradona like the Matthaus/Maradona and Beckenbauer/Charlton jobs we've seen in World Cup finals?
At the moment all I can see is Coluna completely out of position, Charlton marginally out of position and Thisistheone's fullbacks being pushed back by the opposition wingbacks.
Fergus'son's set-up is somewhat convoluted but I can see it working to nullify most of Thisistheone's strengths. Vidic and Costacurta are a wee bit soft at this level, but the rest of Ferguson's XI is lovely.
Tactics & player roles: System: 4231
Maradona The teams No.10. As well as doing the obvious dribbling & direct attacking, Diego will also drop deep to utilise his incredible passing ability, to orchestrate & pick out forward runs - runs that Charlton above all, was brilliant at making.
Eto’o when need be, can drift wide into space behind full backs to allow Charlton, Maradona & Coluna to get free in the box.
Bobby Charlton & Mário Coluna are coups in the sense that apart from their obvious attacking threats (long range shooting, aerial ability, passing, movement & physical presence) both are capable of tracking back and helping deal with adventurous full backs or marauding midfielders. Coluna in particular is a colossus & great box-to-box player so will be deeper than the graphic suggests. The team's third lung. The last thing I wanted was a lazy winger or inside forward who would leave his team-mates exploited.
Billy Bremner the all action, body on the line, hard man destroyer - In the same mould as Keane & Souness. Xabi Alonso the disciplined, calculated, tactical cog in the well oiled machine. Each is skilled enough to drift wide against tricky wingers to help his full back (If Coluna & Charlton don’t) but also stop any dangerous no.10’s operating between the lines. On the flip side, both can also play! Picking a pass and being extremely mobile to link-up play with the forwards. I felt Alonso was important for his ability to keep the ball, in typical contemporary Spanish style.
In order to provide width, the full backs will bomb forward when needed with the intelligent Alonso dropping back in to offer support to the centre backs, becoming a three at the back (similar to Busquets at Barca) Carlos Alberto is famous for getting up and down all day long. Philipp Lahm likewise. Both are superb crossers, both are intelligent enough to time their runs accordingly.
The centre back partnership is a match made in heaven imo. Fabio Cannavaro & Laurent Blanc between them combine pace, mobility, agility, confident, cool & calming presence... very comfortable on the ball. Blanc played his best next to Desailly who is a similar style of defender to Cannavaro, which is why the partnership is so well suited. Blanc was also superb in the air & a huge goal threat from set-pieces. But Blanc is also important because he is a ball playing centre half. Something that is vital in today’s game due to all teams trying to win the ball high up the pitch with aggressive pressing games.
The keeper, Michel Preud'homme, is obviously top class but was selected mainly due to his reliability, calmness and excellent skills at dealing with crosses and high balls. A classic shot—stopper with fine continental pedigree.
Zanetti is a good crosser I thought. Krol was fantastic at picking out long passes, I know that differs from crossing but it indicates that he should be able to pick out some good ones too.
I think Charlton and Coluna are being wasted personally.
Certainly without the ball Beckenbauer will be focusing his attention on Maradona. He will also be the one orchestrating our counter attacks however when we get the ball. Pirri and Ocwirk are perfect to deal with the opponents other threats and drop into the defence when need be.
Costacurta is underrated I think because he played alongside Baresi, people assume he just hung on to his coat tails. He was a fundamental component of one of the greatest defences ever assembled, despite what my opponent says he did have pace, great tactical awareness (a big bonus in this set up) and great technique. With the players they are surrounded by, ie some of the greatest players ever and good ball players, I think Vidic and Costacurta add a good and needed dimension to my defence.
Geoff Hurst, England team-mate
Sir Bobby can play there no problem. He played in the same team as Best & Law.
Coluna is really opperating deeper than the graphic suggests and is another body in midfield really.
Certainly Charlton's got the rounded skillset to play right across the frontline and I've seen him play well as a pure outside-left but I don't know what Coluna's doing there. Is he in some sort of Gattuso-esque role, or is it more like Nedved there or...?
I've put Coluna there because graphics with strange formations & players all over the shop looks terrible. In reality Coluna is operating more like a Park role for Utd, if you know what I mean? (Obviously to a much higher standard.) He's up and down the pitch, pressing & harrassing, allowing Maradona & to a lesser degree, Charlton, to have more attacking freedom the way Ronaldo did for us.
It's basically all about getting Maradona on the ball in dangerous area's, not having him chasing players back, which is an obvious tactic I know, but a lethal one.
Out of interest, who thinks Beckenbauer is a bit wasted in that role for this particular game? If Eto'o was to push on to him, sitting on the shoulder, it would force Fergus' son's team to sit deeper and deeper.
None of the voters post in the thread to explain why! If I knew why I'm so far behind I'd try and rectify it! Is it just the Maradona factor?
I just don't see Coluna as a player with the necessary mobility and energy to play the role particularly well.
Coluna was famous for his stamina. He's definitely got the energy for that role. I'm not claiming he was lightening quick but then he doesn't need to be.
I know it's only formation, but there's a massive gap between your midfield and attack. It makes people think your team don't have enough power to score.
And that 3-5-2 system is really hard to pull-off voters. That's why I changed my formation to the more 'familiar' one.
If I was a neutral voting, Didi looks completely deserted.
Well this will not help you because I like your team better. Maybe Maradona is doing it, I can not see any other thing. Think Charlton and Coluna out wide is not ideal and you should not be this far behind.
Yeah, iv been warned about the 352 but thought I would give it a go anyway. From a tactical respective it's a great formation, and in reality I think it would give me the advantage here.
Stamina for getting up and down that pitch all day long but the high-intensity running out wide? Don't see it myself. He could do it in the way Essien could but you'd get ripped apart for having Essien out there. It's just few know Coluna so can't criticise it.
Why are a few people talking about Charlton & Coluna being wasted as if they're your run of the mill players? These guys are 2 of the best ever. They're going to play well pretty much anywhere. Both have the ability to track back, as I described, which I wouldn't get from lazy wingers or prima donnas.
Not sure how I can respond to that except by saying he isn't deserted, he is only a little ahead of Pirri and Okwirk, who are giving him the freedom and platform to perform, he has two of the greatest full back flanking him and has Eusebio and Kocsis just ahead. With his range of passing there's no chance Didi will struggle to link up with his teammates.
Agreed. It's a wonderful formation when you have the required players (which I think you have). But voters usually spend only 10 seconds to think before casting votes. If you need to keep the formation, I'd suggest re-arrange the formation picture so it doesn't look that 'defensive'. As Thisistheone said, Didi look deserted there.
There's no run of the mill players in this draft, fact is, you have two great players there not bein utilised to thier fullest, and one in particular looks to be performing a completely alien role. Coluna doing a Park role?? I can't see it to be honest. In contrast all my players are in thier correct positions and everything has been done to get the best out of them.
Coluna has played out wide for Benfica before. He's a versatile player. I'll admit I'm asking a lot from him, but then like I said, it's more important I get Maradona used properly than Coluna.
I love your formation, think it works exceptionally well in this case. You get the best out of Beckenbauer, switching to a more known formation won't help you, because then you have to play your best player in a position where most people won't accept how great he was.
Maybe it really is the picture that looks like your attacking players are far apart from the rest of the team, when in fact with Beckenbauer as Libero you won't have any problem to get the ball to your attacking players in dangerous areas.
Fair enough, but if a player is being wasted it's not the end of the world. Most thought Rooney was wasted in our 2008 team being out on the left but it worked cos it got the most out of Ronaldo.
Coluna is sacrificed for Maradona in a similar way.
Nope, I actually think it's a pretty decent approach to minimising Maradona's influence, because Beckenbauer will have that space to appreciate the movement of the game and step out to break it up at just the right time.
That said, your line-up is one of the strongest I've noticed so far from this draft (disclaimer: I've not been looking out for these so have probably missed half of them). It's got a really beautiful balance to it, which I think is slightly lacking from Fergus' Son's, strong as it otherwise is.
For example, I think Vidic would struggle to play in the system featuring a libero. He and Ferdinand at the height of their powers were the very epitome of the defensive partnership developed after the demise of the classic sweeper. The more limited scope of a CB alongside Beckenbauer would clash with the 'step out and tackle early' approach Vidic took in the 2008ish era.
Also, in my head Pirri and Ocwirk are both high-energy high work-rate players, whereas Alonso-Bremner, whilst not as good a pairing, balances a work-rate player in Bremner against the more composed, considered style of Alonso.
Very fine margins though. I very nearly voted tactically for Fergus' Son to even the odds a bit more, because I don't think there's much in it.
EDIT: Actually, feck it, I've just seen the Coluna talk, and in a contest of such fine margins I reckon choosing players and a formation which requires one player to sacrifice their game so significantly is probably enough to tip it the other way.
Bolded the most important part. Thanks for your input!
Good point about Vidic. He's completely alien to this set-up. Played his best with Rio in a 442.
Thanks for the input, some good points. I would take issue with your description of Okwirk though, he could do what Alonso does and much more IMO. Im not going to pretend like I know everything about him but I do know that! There's a few posters on here that could give us a good (unbiased) analysis of his style, hopefully they make an appearance soon...
It's impossible to get away with a sweeper in the current game by the way. With the new off-side laws that Beckenbauer never had, it's suicide.
Beckenbauer vs Maradona is even but Eusebio aside, Thisistheone's team is stronger.
I don't get that at all. How would a team with Beckenbauer as a sweeper ever have any problems to get the ball forward? There's no forward in the history of the game who would be able to close him down and take him out of the game.
Having two high energy high work-rate players in midfield sounds pretty good to me. Gives Beckenbauer more time to move forward without worrying all the time about Maradona. You really don't need another midfielder with a great passing range, for example someone like Alonso would be totally wasted in a 352 formation with Beckenbauer as libero/sweeper.
Italy seemed to manage quite well in the Euros though, getting to the final employing 3 at the back on ocassions, with far inferior players too. I have Beckenbauer, not only the greatest Libero of all time but also one of the greatest players full stop.
I'm talking about playing him as a sweeper, in the current game? No team in the world can play with a sweeper anymore with the change in off-side in 2005.
Don't have enough time to catch up. Will do later.
They tried it against Spain in the opening game I remember. It was a backs to the wall job at times and then in the final they got a right hammering.
Playing like that means you have to sit deep. Sitting deep against Maradona and Charlton is suicide.
Sir Alex said we actually waited about 12 months to sign Vidic because when he went to see him live he was playing in a 5-man defence and he wasn't sure whether he was capable of playing in a two.
De Rossi was quality as a libero this summer.
My full back partnerships a lot better, Kocsis is a better player than Eto'o and I have Didi completely optimised whilst he has two players out of position.
Anyway, I'm off out to watch the Utd game. Won't be back til tomorrow. Best of luck Fergus, we'll continue the debate and may the best team win!
They coped with Spain, arguably one of the greatest possession teams of all time, incredibly well, most thought they were the better team. It's blows the 'Liberos can't play in the modern game' theory of the water IMO. In the final they didn't use the libero, and got smashed. Perhaps they should have kept that tactic...
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