Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Walrus, May 2, 2012.
Newcastle definitely won't win against Newcastle.
Edited my post. Easy isn't it? racking up your post count.
I can only speak for myself. If we were allowed 3 summer signings, and it was up to me, a left back wouldn't be one of them. I'd keep Fabio at Old Trafford.
We are a team in transition - that usually equals short-term decline!
Take one step back to take 2 steps forward etc....
Teams like Barca, Real and bayern and even City have progressed faster than us.
Umited, Chelsea and Arsenal have been slower in their renewal. Arsenal by Wenger reluctance to buy players, Chelsea through the meddling of senior players and Abromovich and us through SAF patchy record with recent purchases and being hamstrung by our debt.
Going forward hopefully the law of averages favours us when it comes to buying players and the debt becomes less of an issue.
Next season, we will hear opposition chanting '8 points.. 8 points lead and you fucked it up'
Just get ready for it.
We have declined, but we are not "a team in decline".
United lifting the Premier League trophy is more the rule than the exception, so if we get pipped by City then we will have declined this year.
But a team in decline is one getting worse and with dim prospects going forward. Instead we have a young team which will improve while Chelsea and City will age or stay at their prime. With the exception of the crisis left by Fletcher's illness and Scholes' near-retirement I think we are well sorted for next season's challenge on all fronts.
To be fair, they too let a 5 point slip but not just that, they lost a 5 point and fell 8 behind!
Seems to be a lot of links with right backs, understandable given the youthful inexperience of Rafael and Jones there, but I would definitely prefer a left back. Evra is way overplayed and he'll be 31 next season.
What tune would that be sung to? The lyrics sound a bit shit, and I can't see what tune it would fit into. Are you sure people will be singing this song? I'm doubtful to be honest.
A couple of central midfielders and we'll be right back in it.
We are in decline... but SAF is building a new team and we all hope that it gels like it always has been the case... City is by far better than us to be honest... if we'd still win the league I'd say that we'd been VERY lucky...
United has declined in recent years, that's a certainty. The 2008 CL winning team consisted of a frontline of Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, a younger Scholes, a less retarded version of Evra plus Vidic and Rio pretty much in their primes. And of course van der Sar in goal. Since then the team got worse in every position. Loss of Ronaldo and Tevez in attack, Scholes is 37 and not 33 anymore, Rio is past his prime and how Vidic will come back is uncertain. Evra has also lost his sense of positioning and De Gea is no van der Sar (yet). BUT: It's not as bad as people make out all of a sudden after the City loss. The only thing this squad is really lacking is a top class central midfielder. Modric would be the perfect signing. Not Sneijder (a #10, you already have Rooney), not Javi Martinez (a #6, you already have Carrick). But exactly a Modric type. The frontline is good enough already (Rooney, Welbeck, Hernandez, Nani, Valencia, Young ...), Carrick is good enough (he needs a new partner though), Evans-Vidic can be a very good CB partnership and De Gea has enormous potential. So what's really lacking is a proper central midfielder. And to an extend proper fullbacks. The da Silva twins are too injury prone and Evra has lost the plot for some time now but that's not as much of a problem as the lack of a proper central midfielder for now. You won't reach Barcelona levels (once in a lifetime team) nor Real Madrid's (most expensive squad ever assembled). But it will be enough to win the Premier League title. And in cup competitions (CL) anything can happen with a bit of luck.
Furthermore I believe that you wouldn't have lost against City if you played your best players. Which, for once, means: no Park and no Giggs. For all the hype City get: they are major bottlers and Mancini is a horrible coach. They've got nervy in every possible pressure situation this season (Chelsea at home when they fell 4 points behind you and HAD to win, Arsenal away where they ultimately fell 8 points behind, the whole CL group stages ...). Silva is totally out of form, Tevez is just back from a 6 month holiday, Nasri is a lesbian and Barry is ... just Barry. Fergie got way too cautious after the 1-6. Unnecessary. Arsenal played them of the park recently. And Newcastle will beat them as well.
That's my take from a non-Manchester United fan point of view.
Some good points and juvenile outbursts,but made me giggle.
Don't know how we got 'way too cautious', winning all those games
Way too cautious against City I meant. It reminded me of Mourinho's second meeting with Barcelona after the 0-5 trashing he received. The very next Clasico he played with 3 defensive midfielders (Khedira, Pepe, Xabi). The 4-5-1 was unnecessary. Fergie didn't play to the strengths of his players, nor did he even play his most in-form players. Rooney looked lost and desperate. Park didn't even look matchfit. It was a lineup just to contain City, not to beat them. Although it almost worked, it has to be said. The difference was a simple corner kick ...
That's just patent nonsense.At 3-1 we did what we thought we could based on some ridiculous comebacks; throw men forward.It backfired and we got hit on the break.Hardly cautious.
We were far more cautious on Monday and couldn't raise our game once 1-0 down
Eh ... You somehow misunderstood me. When I said you were cautious I meant your approach for the second league game (a few days) ago. Not the 1-6.
That's what he was talking about. Monday nights game.
I wouldn't use the word decline, because I know we'll be back up there soon enough, we are just going through a transitional period atm, and as much as the media and other fans would like to think we are in decline, it couldn’t be further from the truth IMO. We have been here time and time again, yet because City with all their millions look like they will clinch the title, then all of a sudden we are in freefall and City will reign supreme for a long time.
Fergie is the master of building squads, he’s done it so many times over the years, and we are now at that stage again. It is the best quality Fergie has in locker! A lot of managers fall short of this quality, they hold on to past performers that little bit too long and don’t look to the future! Then before you know it, you’re fighting for 4th spot.
I’m not worried at all tbh, these current crop of youngster we have are the making of a great team! We have pushed City all the way with them and may even win the title yet, who knows? And to say that with all the injuries’ we have had is unbelievable. Also, what about in another season of so when players like, Jones, Rafael, Cleverley, Smalling, Young and hopefully Pogba all start coming good and performing at a consistent high level? Potential title winners right there.
We have the makings of a great team already at United, we probably need a couple of signings to see us right, then hopefully all the youngsters can mature into the players we need them to be and keep us up there.
I might disagree with one or two statements in there, but overall it's a fair assesment IMO. Btw, what team do you support?
some good points....but we are not a team in decline at all.
We are in transition and even if we just fail to win teh title this year, we have done very well.
Our transfer plan did not materialize. Think we put everything in the 'Sneijder basket'.
Plus not having Fletcher , Anderson and Cleverley available in huge chunks did not help.
'value buy'....'young talent'.....'potential'.....words that Wenger used whereas we could buy any player we wanted. We seem to have become the new Arsenal while City have the deeper pocket.
I can't find any other words to express this but: No Fucking Shit.
They have the deepest pockets possible. What are we supposed to do?
I think Europe shows that the Premier league is in decline. OK Chelski are in the final but the best two teams in the country by a mile going out at the group stages.
Especially when you take into account the strength of the groups , particularly ours.
As for us , yes we are in transition and if the youth progress and grow into quality players then no we are not in decline.
But it's a big if!
If we lift the Premier League this year it will be the best ever, not just because of Citeh and their money but because of circumstances.
Injuries, Goalkeeping Issues,Then big injuries Vidic out for the season along with Fletch 2 BIG misses,and Anderson aswell (he started so brightly with Cleverly (Oh yes and him to).
I could go on but you get my drift.
Second is no good to us , but as previously stated without the noisy spending neighbours we would have had it won by March.
With all taken into account IF we do finish runners up it will still be a great achievement taking into account all the above and more and then adding how far we finished ahead of the rest.
Yes we blew it, but so did they.And hopefully will do again.
Here's to a magic Sunday come on you Geordies.
I think we are a team that is looking for a way to fend off teams with unlimited cash both at home and abroad, it's the type of thing that can take time and has no certainties as developing youth is hit and miss, and each season these other teams supplement their squads with proven quality.
Hard to say, but we did too many mistakes during the transfers since we won the Champion League, and we're paying it.
I think we became lazy, the team we had with Ronnie, Tevez and Rooney was amazing. Up there with Barcelona now, we believed so much in that team that I feel we felt it was possible to keep losing a player here and there but maintain the results.
Look at our team in that final against Chelsea:
And here is our team against City:
David De Gea
Only 5 of that champions league team started on Monday with Scholes and Giggs both being 4 years older... Now obviously teams change and I'm not saying all of that Champions League team should still be here but the players that have came in as replacements are not even nearly the same quality.
So are we a team in decline?
It's to early to say really, on the one hand we have young players that are full of potential and MAY step up to the mark and become great.
On the other hand we find it hard to recruit quality players meaning we have to depend on buying potential, something that is uncertain while our rivals at home and aboard soak up all the known world class talent.
I think this coming summer will help clarify where we stand, if we buy quality and spend the money then this post can get flamed and we were just in transition. If we buy more kids and here the "no value in the market" lines then I'm sorry to say it but we must then be considered in decline.
As can be seen from teams like Newcastle and Athletico Madrid, there are plenty of players around who can improve us. The "value" line won't fly this summer.
Were there really many mistakes though? Tevez is a player who's left since then, but he chose to left and there was nothing we could do to stop him. When you look at his antics since he left, you would probably think that, in the end, it was the right decision to get rid of him.
On reflection, we probably should have gotten more for Ronaldo, but at the time £80m was brilliant for a player who was off the back of a season where he wasn't even the best player in the league. He obviously was the best overall player by a distance, but it hadn't been his best season with us, so to speak. Considering he wanted out, £80m was very good for him at the time.
Looking at it, you may say that for major transfer errors, the only ones you could argue for would have been signing a top class midfielder instead of Berbatov in 2008.
Most of our other transfer dealings have been good. We got good deals for the likes of Hernandez and Smalling, while you've got Jones and De Gea who should both be world class players when they hit their prime for us. Yes, there has been the odd Bebe or Obertan in there, but generally Fergie's transfer dealings have actually been quite good since 2008 when you look at them.
Spot on Eric! There is fuck all up with our squad generally, our problem last year was letting Hargo, O'shea and Scholes go, as well as much uncertainty over Fletcher, and not signing anyone for the midfield.
We saw the difference Scholes made when he came back, imagine had we signed another DM too, to take the pressure off Carrick. I think we would have won this title comfortably. Even now we are only a Sahin or a Martinez away from being a very good side who can compete on all fronts next year.
I agree the kick and rush style of the Pl makes for exciting viewing. But it is tactically naive and easily nullified by the clever and imaginative possession based football we see in Europe.
We were appalling in Europe this year, despite having a fairly easy group. We had no defensive plan at all for dealing with the oppositions possession game.
Chelsea's final appearance makes me laugh with the sheer irony of it. For all the money they have invested, they have managed to take on europe's finest by hoofing a long ball up to Drogba, and defending en masse.
Not knocking them for it, credit to them for 2 or 3 great team performances, but it the most basic of strategies, although brilliantly executed, that has gotten them through.
Come on, who would have predicted Ando/Clev/Vidic/Fletch would be injured ?
We're not in decline, we're just out of luck.
BTW, who would have though Carrick would regain his superb form, Scholes would come out of retirement etc...
I'm truthfully happy that we even managed 2nd spot with the players that we had I mean, if we would have known just Fletchers injury I'm sure a panic DM MF buy in the summer would have been done.
We seriously lacked a good defensive MF for big games, ala Hargreaves as we didn't replace him while also Fletch got injured and it really paid the price.
Overall, I'm really happy with how this season has progressed and who knows, if we put 8 goals past Swansea, everyone wouldn't be posting such negative claims against this team.
We're not a team in decline, we're a team that believes in our own hype...this idea that we are always ruthless and always know how to win. We don't. We proved that this year losing to some very poor teams.
COMPLACENCY. Not just on the pitch, but off it as well is the reason we'll be labeled as a team that somehow managed to bottle a 8 point lead in such epic fashion. People will blame players, but SAF has to hold his hand up as well. Going to the well too many time over the years meant that in the end when we had a Giggs, Scholes and Park in midfield we looked miles behind the team that will end up winning the title.
Nobody likes losing to their bitter rivals but I think this might be the best thing for the team moving forward. I expect next year to be even harder, and we simply can't expect the same sort of success if we don't invest in quality players.
I'm looking for a United response in Summer and I expect one as this capitulation against City won't sit well with Fergie.
I hope your're right.
I don't think it's as simple as we believe our own hype, i just think when push has come to shove, we haven't been good enough. We have struggled all season stopping teams creating chances against us, and when we set up to stop teams we have no offensive threat.
Scholes coming back shown us what we had been missing and what a top quality midfielder can provide. Unfortunately what we gain in possession playing Scholes, we lack quite a bit defensively when he plays.
That has been the most frustrating thing for me this season. I always felt we needed another Carrick, fletcher didn't make it and we have been short of defensive options in midfield ever since. The game against Everton summed it up, we had a 2 goal lead twice and we simply could not stop Everton from creating chances against us, from which they nicked a draw.
That is the game that has cost us the title, should we go on to lose it. 3 points in that game would have left us going to the Etihad with a 5 point lead, instead we gave City hope, and they have taken full advantage. The game there really shown up our lack of options, we were forced to try and stop City by playing a formation that didn't suit our players. So little variety in midfield explains why we play 4-4-2 so often. We don't have 2 defensive minded players that would allow us to release an AM to offer a regular threat through the middle.
It needed addressing last summer imo, and we have paid the price for that oversight. Hopefully SAF will finally address this area this summer, he must have been reminded in the last 2 games what huge benefit a midfield general brings to a team, watching Toure for City. He has really stepped up and produced 2 fantastic performances when they needed it most.
Had we someone of that calibre, we would surely have won the title and performed much better in Europe.
I don't think we're in decline... anymore. Last season and the season before I thought we were in decline. And that's despite reaching the CL final. This season I feel we're more in transition. We've brought in a few new players and have, at the same time, been introducing young players to more first team football.
Next season I think we can expect better from the likes of De Gea, Young, Cleverley, Welbeck, Jones, Smalling and Evans. That's not to say they've been poor this season, because they haven't. Just that they're young players still learning the game.
I just think Fergie not closing out the game by bringing on a couple of defensive players when we were cruising against Everton in the final stages of the game has cost us the league this season. Rafael is always a liability still in this moment in the big games. Playing him to mark Ribery against Bayern a couple of seasons ago was suicide and still today he is far from ready for the big games. We need a Silva and a Toure type player in midfield and we will be back challenging for everything next year. Whether that happens or not remains to be seen. City could be in for a long time of dominance but we all thought the same with Chelsea until we managed to them out eventually
Yeah, we're in decline at second in the league.
Rafael was fantastic against Ribery and it was the fact it was Ribery that got Rafael sent off who was equally fouling him,. I also never expect Rafael to be the player who has to defend against the oppositons main striker.
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