Are we a team in decline?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Walrus, May 2, 2012.

  1. May 7, 2012

    EB100 Full Member

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    Hernandez has been a flop so far for me in terms of the caliber of striker we need to be competitive among Europe's elite and also among England's elite. I don't think he's United quality and he certainly hasn't proven to be.

    And if you read my post and internalize it instead of reacting emotionally to snippets you don't like, you'll see that I called SAF's record in the market weak in a certain context: in the context of us seemingly having no money for trial and error, or for big signings. I never said SAF's record is weak in the context of other managers. Mourinho and Guardiola have money to throw away.
  2. May 7, 2012

    Ole's_toe_poke Ole_Aged_Slow_Poke

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    Its been a weird season. Firstly I'd say we are a much better team than last season despite probably not winning. You only have to look at the points total. We've had some great displays this year. But also some monumental feck ups especially in Europe.

    We are oncourse for our highest points total since 09. But I do think there is "something" missing. I think we are far too reliant on crosses for example. We need more variation in attack, something that City have. We need more creativity from the middle.

    Our defending at times has been horrific. For me the biggest key is the retirement of VDS as well as Vidic's injury. While De Gea's form has improved you can't really expect him to have the composure that almost a 1000 matches at the highest level will give you. VDS had this and made our defense composed.

    We are clearly not a team in decline because we are actually improving from what we did last season. I look at the improvement in De Gea, Smalling, Evans, Welbeck, Cleverley and the potential of Jones and see a team that is actually evolving and will become better. Not decline.

    So no. We aren't in decline. We are evolving. Also give City (and us) some credit. 89 points is a heck of total.
  3. May 7, 2012

    EB100 Full Member

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    Obviously if you subtract his goals from our record, we have no title. That doesn't mean we wouldn't have won the title with another striker in his place.

    And that part about SAF is uncalled for. Its what I mean by acting cult-like.
  4. May 7, 2012

    EB100 Full Member

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    You really can't say that. Just out of casual empiricism I'd say Wenger is more efficient in the market, but I don't know for sure.

    As for your list, I know that. I could draw up a similar list of players that didn't succeed (check the compilation in the link below). My point is that he has spent a considerable about of money on sub-standard players - a record that isn't impressive considering our new financial situation.

    http://www.transferleague.co.uk/premiership-transfers/manchester-united-transfers.html
  5. May 7, 2012

    NM Full Member

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    No. I simply made a point. You see it as cult-like. Not my problem. You will be one of those who realize how good SAF is when he is gone. I'm done arguing with you on it as I can agree to disagree.
  6. May 7, 2012

    EB100 Full Member

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    Dude, I already know how good SAF is, this has nothing to do with that! Jeeeez.
    Way to prove my cult point.
  7. May 7, 2012

    Mick1991 Full Member

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    Nah. we're a team on the up! Just need to round off the rough edges, and we are sorted!
  8. May 7, 2012

    gooDevil Worst scout ever

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    Actually, you didn't specify that you only meant his record is weak 'in the context of us having no money for trial and error or for big signings', so don't be surprised when people react to what you actually said.

    As far as your argument that SAF is weak in the transfer marked 'in the context of us having no money for trial and error or for big signings', us being unable to spend like Real isn't something SAF can effect, not a reason to judge his choices as poor. So you're not making any sense there.

    Then you go on to say "We obviously didn't end up getting hurt by this because we've always been the team with the financial clout and the Premiership team that talented youngsters wanted to join." So you're saying we used to have money to waste so it didn't matter that SAF is weak at signing players? I'm not sure what you mean by adding that young players wanted to join us, that the club is the reason we got young players not SAF? Young players still want to join us.

    Your attempts at guessing the motivation of posters in this thread is very poor, and not conductive to a debate, I'd leave out the judgements about 'reacting emotionally' and 'cult-like reactions' and just make an argument.

    If you think Chicharito is a flop because he's not good enough to start against the best in Europe and beat them then I think you've got your expectations wound up a bit high. First, he has shown he can be that good, he got us to the CL Final last year after all. Second, no team has 25 world class players, so that's a silly expectation that all our signing will be that good.

    I dare say your comments remind me of a tendency for people to think we should be spending money and signing players in a way this team never has, doing nothing but picking the world's best from other sides and putting them together galactico style. Because as far as finding a young talented player to mould into a star, Chicharito is a gem and someone all the top teams wish they had signed.
  9. May 7, 2012

    EB100 Full Member

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    -Don't act up talking about what is conducive to debate. Your post contained a childish remark addressing someone I had responded to in a way that is not conducive to debate. So you have no credibility on this.

    -Saying I said something in a certain context doesn't mean I made a statement with an explicit accompanying note explaining its context to the reader. It means if you read the entirety of the passage, the meaning I was trying to put across is completely different from your interpretation. In fact, a couple of posts after my original one (before your response) I explicitly pointed out the context when I was first misinterpreted - that didn't stop you from lashing out at me because of a sentence you didn't like. And, again, here you are quoting that sentence out of its context. You seem so disturbed by the fact that I put weak in the same sentence as SAF that you've zeroed in on that and can't see anything else with respect to the message I was trying to put across. I really can't help you there.

    -As for young players, my personal impression is we're in a period in which youngsters don't aspire to player for United as much as in the past - particularly non-English ones. That's just an opinion and I welcome dissent.

    -Hernandez was signed because we had a need for a first team striker to compete with a failing Berbatov, who was a starter. Don't try to dress it up like he was intended to be some sort of second tier player for us. He has never shown he's United quality for me and I don't think he ever will be. I will gladly admit I'm wrong if he does.

    -United has never signed galacticos, but we've always been top competitors for Europe's most coveted and expensive young talent. Nani, Rooney, Ronaldo, Anderson, Ronaldinho, Robben, ad infinitum. Those were highly rated youngsters at the time, very expensive in those days' prices, and we always had the clout to go for them whenever SAF saw the need. However, because of the likes of City inflating prices and our financial situation, our transfer strategy has changed. We either go for players who aren't being chased around in a way that puts their price beyond us (Young, Jones, etc), or we fish in the the far reaches of the market for players that haven't made a name for themselves yet (meaning they're relatively cheap) and do hurried deals in the hope that we'll find out later that we unearthed a gem (Bebe, Hernandez). Alas, both have turned out to hardly be footballers with too much to learn. Who told you other top teams wished they signed Hernandez? Something isn't true just because you think so. I honestly think you're dreaming if you think Hernandez is a United quality in the long run - United quality being Champions league competitors and Prem champions. But we'll let time tell.
  10. May 7, 2012

    prateik City Fan

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    I dont understand this.
    we are 19 points clear of 3rd place. Our major challengers over the last 2 decades are far far behind us. If we are in decline, what about the rest of the league?
    The transition hasnt been as smooth as we wouldve liked, but it hasnt been as bad as it couldve been.

    It hasnt been a fantastic season.. far from it. But it hasnt been disastrous either.
    86 points is pretty decent in a league season.

    We have made mistakes. It cost us the league and cost us in Europe. But I think we'll learn from them
    I dont think we had the right youth/experience balance.. Maybe its easier in hindsight.
    De Gea, Jones, Welbeck, Clev all in their first seasons playing at this level with this amount of pressure. Smalling, Rafael, Evans are quite young too.
    Injuries to Fletch, Anderson, Clev for large parts of the season didnt help.
    Without VDS and Vidic, we have lacked leaders at the back. De Gea took some time to settle down.

    Its not making excuses for this season, just pointing out that there were problems which probably wouldnt be the case next season.

    We WILL sign a midfielder. the kids will learn from their mistakes. The defence will have more time to work together. The keeper has looked much better in the second half of the season.
    We have been alright going forward. But with Berba sidelined and Hernandez not having a good season (and Owen being Owen), we didnt have the options up top to mix it up either.
    We go with 4 strikers. If Berba leaves, we'll get someone else to take his place.

    Its alright really.
    It sucks that we didnt win the league. It'll be made worse by the fact that City will win it.. But I'm not really worried.
  11. May 7, 2012

    redman5 Full Member

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    There's nothing wrong with Manchester United that the return of Vidic won't put right.

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