Artur Friedenreich, the greatest of all time.

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by cesc's_mullet, Jun 12, 2008.

  1. Jun 12, 2008
    #1

    cesc's_mullet Get a haircut Hippy!

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    Artur Friedenreich, the greatest ever footballer.

    I’m just watching this documentary – ‘A History of Football’ - and they’re doing this segment on the best players ever. They went through the usuals; Maradona, Pele and Beckenbouer; but then they finished up with this Friedenreich bloke. They say he was the best player ever.

    Has anyone heard about him?

    He has the best scoring record of all time, though it was only in the Brazilian League in a pre-Pele era.

    He also invented the curve-ball kicks, and revolutionised the game with his use of agility and ball control. As back in those days the 'black' players were continually fouled horribly, whilst the white players couldn't be fouled, thus he created a way to ease his way past all the chop-happy players.
  2. Jun 12, 2008
    #2

    cesc's_mullet Get a haircut Hippy!

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    On a side note, ADIDAS was created by a guy call Adi Dassler.

    This docco is ace.
  3. Jun 12, 2008
    #3

    Johnno Banned

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    I'm watching it too kid, alternating between that and the Adult Channel whilst my missus is out.
    It's like powder...
  4. Jun 12, 2008
    #4

    cesc's_mullet Get a haircut Hippy!

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    It's been a damn good docco so far.

    Also on another side note, when Rooney came on the first time I honestly thought he was speaking Portuguese like Ronaldo (the fat), Socrates and Ronaldinho just before him.
  5. Jun 12, 2008
    #5

    Johnno Banned

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    No mate, just Scouse which requires subtitles and the interviewer a raincoat to stop being covered in phlegm and flob
  6. Jun 12, 2008
    #6

    cesc's_mullet Get a haircut Hippy!

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    :lol:

    So the original Football was a hybrid of todays Rugby and Soccer.

    With the nancy-boy students ruling out all the kicking (each other), tackling, use of hands and all round hardness of the game. Such things were 'below' them.

    Whilst the rest wanted to keep those attributes and created todays Rugby.
  7. Jun 12, 2008
    #7

    nooshka Full Member

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    In answer to your original question. Yeah i've heard of him but only through an article they once did in FourFourTwo magazine apparently all his records were burnt in a fire and because he was black he had to paint his face white to be able to play football. Was a relly good article wish i still had it.
  8. Jun 12, 2008
    #8

    cesc's_mullet Get a haircut Hippy!

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    They didn't mention anything about painting his face, though they did mention he had to wear a hairnet and use some substance to keep his hair down.
  9. Jun 12, 2008
    #9

    Collina Full Member

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    And Adi Dassler's brother, Rudolf Dassler, created what later became known as PUMA.

    Adi Dassler was a nazi, by the way.
  10. Jun 12, 2008
    #10

    cesc's_mullet Get a haircut Hippy!

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    Yeah I've got a pair of Rudolf Dassler German Pumas, I figured they must've been related.
  11. Jun 16, 2008
    #11

    B Cantona Desperate

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    The Brazilian league in the Pele era wasn't that clever either, in fact for most of his career they didn't have a proper national league structure at all. Pele played and scored the majority of his games / goals in the Sau Paulo state championship. It's all very well pointing to his great scoring record, but the standard of those games were, well... crap. Consider if the North West had a similar 'state' competition, Ronaldo would be playing against the likes of Bury and Rochdale...

    In 1958, Pele scored 58 goals in 38 state championship games. Magnificent? Santos scored 143 goals in that campaign. 6th place Portuguese scored 96!!! (for reference, United scored 80 to win the league last season). In all, defences that season conceeded 1279 goals, whereas last seasons same length Premiership campaign saw 1002. Incidently but for Derby County and Paul Robinson skewing the damn figures, we might have rivalled the Italy league for defensive stubborness, they saw 970 goals. My point is, given the standard, you have to take these 'records' with a heavy pinch of salt. And given Maradona played only competitive matches, and with Torino and Argentina was often carrying his side to victory, I'd say he has to be recognised as the best ever

    Anyway, that rant about my issue with Pele's credibility over (I didn't get started on the 'European Exhibition' games he has counted...), and to come to the point of the thread, congratultions to Friedenreich being the first to curl the ball. The best ever? Very doubtful, merely a pioneer ahead of his time. Should be remembered as a vital footnote in the development of the game, but being the first doesn't necessarily mean being the best
  12. Jun 16, 2008
    #12

    Denis' cuff Full Member

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    Adi (Adolf) and Rudi (Rudolf) Dassler both went into their father's boot-making business. Couldn't get on together and both went their seperate ways.

    Adi = Adidas
    Rudi = Puma

    edit: sorry Collina
  13. Jun 16, 2008
    #13

    sonymobby Full Member

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    However, you can't dismiss him for being born that early, can you? If at that time he was a footballing genius and a pioneer, why wouldn't he do the same today?
  14. Jun 16, 2008
    #14

    B Cantona Desperate

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    Because someone else would have done it first. He was the right man at the right time. Without him, would players still be unable to curl the ball? I think not. Born now, he'd be just another (top?) player, if he even made it all
  15. Jun 16, 2008
    #15

    sonymobby Full Member

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    No, take it relatively. He was better that what all those millions were back then. If everybody else can be better, why not him too?
  16. Jun 16, 2008
    #16

    B Cantona Desperate

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    I see what you're saying Sony. It's just impossible to know. Some players back then might have been better players in this era than that given the change of game conditions. Some might not have made it. Your assumption is that the top players then would make top players now, it's entirely plausible

    Was Artur Friedenreich a top player of his time? Over 1200 goals, possibly the most of all time, suggests so. But if you're taking domestic Brazilian goals back then with a heavy pinch of salt like I am, it's not so certain. His international record, which seems a fairer assessment to me, was 10 goals in 22 games. Obviously statistics only tell you so much though

    What I will say though is that I don't think him being the first to learn how to curl a ball in a controlled fashion means he would certainly have been a great player today. I think someone does that at some point anyway. He was ahead of his time, you give him that, he perhaps sped up the development of the game, but ultimately it's something that would have occured with or without him
  17. Jun 16, 2008
    #17

    sonymobby Full Member

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    I get you too Brad and you've got some fair points. The fact is that I don't really like Pele so what I like you've said about him and his goals. However, I don't like Maradona too so for me the best ever is our Best! :D
  18. Jun 16, 2008
    #18

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert

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    You're still spouting clueless, ignorant shite about something you clearly know nothing about. Do you have a short memory or something?

    Please do explain Dixie Dean's records in the 'evolved' English division one whilst you're here.
  19. Jun 16, 2008
    #19

    B Cantona Desperate

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    Still? That was my first post of the thread!

    I know nothing about football? Why do you think my memory is short?

    Dixie Dean had a magnificent record in the 20's and 30's. 349 goals in 399 games, 16 in 18 for England. But you can't simply compare that record to todays players, it's evidently tougher to score goals in todays day and age, defensive standards have improved, hence why top Premiership strikers will only usually score around 20 goals in a Premier league season. With the Brazilian domestic competition, esteemed journalist Tim Vickery still considers the state championships to be a joke now, a bit of a waste of time

    What is clueless and ignorant about my posts? I've attempted to back up my thoughts with some figures and analysis, is that frowned upon on here now?
  20. Jun 16, 2008
    #20

    Nanison Banned

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    Brad is obviously right.

    It's all about defence. I watched the 1960 European cup final 7-3 to Real and the defending is just laughable. They got a lot time on the ball, the tackles were hard just as they are now but players actually had the time to control the ball. These days players with the ball get closed down fast.

    That said Real back then looked genius but they would have to step up their game to compete with todays top teams. Which i believe they were capable of because you can easily spot the class and technique on the ball but they will definately have to get used to the modern way of defending.

    In conclusion: defending seems to be the main difference. Back in the 60's and before that time every player had attacking on their minds, now tactics play a huge part and players should be quite intelligent too.

    About Pele: I still believe he was the best ever, despite the league he played in, because his record for brazil speaks for itself. All time top goalscorer for Brazil, played in 4 world cups, at 17 was a huge threat on the highest stage.
    I also saw his 1970 world cup final back then football really started to develop in the football we know today and he looked very classy indeed.

    I'm absolutely sure if Friedenreich was that good he would have easily adjusted to todays standards as Pele could do it too (proven in 1970)
  21. Jun 16, 2008
    #21

    B Cantona Desperate

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    Seems a bit fairer, thanks Nanison!!! :)

    I think my remarks about Pele are bourne a little out of the dismissal by some non United supporters of where Best stands amongst this lot

    You can't argue with Pele's international record, 92 goals in 77 games. But he played in a side which for some of those world cups had absolute all time legends playing for them (Gerson, Tostao, Rivelinho, Jairzinho etc), you'd have to think even without Pele they'd have been competing for and probably winning those World Cups. I don't think Maradona had that kind of company in the teams he played for. But anyway, people say Best can't be held in this esteem, because he's fatally flawed by his international record; he never played in a world cup. And I just don't accept that a footballer can only be judged great dependant on where he was born. If people are going to point to this kind of thing, you have to say Pele was fatally flawed in the respect that his club career saw him play mostly uncompetitive or exhibition games, hence his ridiculous haul of goals

    It's all subjective anyway, they're all magnificent players. And although I've never seen Artur Friedenreich play, I trust my peers enough to consider he must have been quite some player to watch too
  22. Jun 16, 2008
    #22

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert

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    We've had this discussion, in detail, before. To which you went deathly silent at the time, only to repeat the exact same splurge in another thread about the player. It's very clear you have your information from textbooks only and have never seen a single game from that era to comment on them as a voice of authority on the subject.

    I said at the time that those state championships contained places the size of England, ffs. You make them sound like some dingy, backstreet pub competitions clearly not knowing or intentionally disregarding the fact that a country-wide competition in a place so huge was impossible with the transport of the time. Whilst also continually bypassing that during Pele's time that country was arguably the strongest league on the planet as exhibited by their showings in the World Cups between '58 and '70. Even in '50 they were a powerhouse...just how does that happen if the leagues are so shit, Brad?

    Don't pretend to not have bias on this subject. At least then you'd be free to slate the player with the little tidbits of information you've managed to compile from the books you've read on the era.


    As for you Dixie Dean bit, you've clearly missed the point being made. You're there taking such a record at face because you know of the competiton in this tiny country, which is no bigger than the state championships Pele was involved in. An incredible double standard.
  23. Jun 16, 2008
    #23

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert

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    And have you seen the Inter Milan double European Cup winning team of the 60's in action who were the antithesis of shit defending? In fact, have you seen any of the superb defending of the Italian and German sides from that era?

    Using one game to castigate an entire era is obviously flawed. Why don't we take City's 6-0 tonking by Chelsea and say that's how the game was played for this era? Because that would be a fecking daft thing to do, wouldn't it?

    And Pele was strong because of the league he played in, not despite it... this is the common error when talking about such a time. Consider everything rather than your own subjective criteria which is ultimately flawed.

    There were some incredible defenders and defensive teams plying their trades all over the world at that time and given it was two points for a win in most leagues it was important to have good defenders.

    Tactically the game is different now, but attackers are safe in the knowledge they won't be facing career threatening tackles from behind at any given moment as well. You put a modern player into a game from a previous era and he's just as likely to shit it and not perform as an older player being outmuscled and powered out of a modern game. It goes both ways.
  24. Jun 16, 2008
    #24

    B Cantona Desperate

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    Ah ok, I think I vaguely remember having this discussion with you before. Let it be known I'm not speaking as an authority on the subject, I make no secret of my age, I'm merely giving my opinion which I'm trying to back up with some forms of evidence

    Incidently, fair play to the person who has watched Sau Paulo state championship games from the 1950's. Reading books and hearing accounts from our peers from back then is the only real knowledge we have from that era. I had difficulty even finding a league table to quote some goal statistics from

    Perhaps my use of Dale and Bury was crass, but that's actually a representation of what a man I would hold up as an authority on the subject, Tim Vickery, has said about the competition today. And I'm afraid the free flowing goal statistics indicate that the quality of teams competing in those championships was not especially high

    A country wide competition perhaps wasn't possible at the time, but what you have to consider is that there are 27 different Brazilian state championships, of which Sau Paulo was just one. Perhaps one of the strongest, containing Sau Paulo, Palmeiras, Corinthians and Santos, but none the less one amongst 27. So even if they were a powerhouse and had some of the very best players in the world, those best players are competing against relatively medicore talents in many of these state championship games

    I could be wrong, but weren't you the one who stated Brazil had the strongest league in the world at that time when they didn't even have a single national league? All you have a go at me...
  25. Jun 16, 2008
    #25

    cesc's_mullet Get a haircut Hippy!

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    You’re wrong for the most part.

    IF he was born today, he'd be privy to all the new developments in the game. The revolutionised equipment, better training facilities, tactics, a gym, treatments etc and the like.

    To further disclaim your point I'll refer you back to another section of this doco that addressed this very issue.

    They showed three players from one of the German Clubs – Guy Demel and two other internationals, I forget their names – all of them were doing tricks with the ball, the basic ones like ball juggling. They then got these three to put on the boots they wore back in the olden days, the extremely heavy boots (had steel caps). They could hardly keep the ball up for more then 3 kicks before they fudged it. They couldn't do anything, it was like they were trying to play Football with massive construction site work-safe boots.

    For him to do the things he did, whilst not only facing the on-field discrimination/racism, is truly extraordinary. Not only that but the fact he excelled, and revolutionised the game takes him onto that level where the mere dismissal you gave him is clearly unjust and wrong.
  26. Jun 16, 2008
    #26

    B Cantona Desperate

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    Cesc you've missed my point. I'm not debating that players way back when wouldn't be able to make it today under the different conditions, in fact I already stated that I'm sure some would probably be known as better players, some wouldn't have made it. A lot of players today probably rely more on their speed than their skill, would they have made it back then? You just don't know

    What I'm wondering is whether in this instance, a player coming up with something before anyone else, does THAT mean he would have been an all time great of any era? Obviously if he was around today, somebody else would have been the first to curl a ball, I'm sure that would have occured with or without Friedenreich. I'm questioning whether being the first at something makes you an all time great or not, rather than just ahead of your time - or is that what greatness is?
  27. Jun 16, 2008
    #27

    cesc's_mullet Get a haircut Hippy!

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    Yeah I get your point. It's just like the Bradman debate.

    As for the curling of the ball, and the fleet-of-foot ball control/dribbling, obviously someone else would've come up with it. But the fact that he did shows he's got an innate instinctual understanding of the game. Footy smarts, and some good ones at that.

    That’s something most players lack.

    Whether or not he'd be the greatest ever, in this era, will obviously never be known. But I think he would've excelled at the least, though this is just my personal opinion.
  28. Jun 16, 2008
    #28

    Nanison Banned

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    This has been one of the most interesting discussions ever. at the moment I have nothing to say really, as I believe everybody here has some fair points.

    I guess it would be interesting to see a match with todays best players with old equipment and offocurse an old ball.

    From what I've seen players were highly skillful back in the 50's and 60's especially the wingers, they also had an incredible physique because games usually at a high pace back then too. But still something seems wrong, maybe a lack of creativity I don't know what exactly. Maybe in terms of tricks, many of the things we occasionally see today weren't there in the 50's like stepovers or Zidane turns.

    But then again i'm probably wrong I only saw a handful of 50's and 60's games.

    I'd give lots of money to watch games from previous eras
  29. Jun 16, 2008
    #29

    Nanison Banned

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    BTW look in the manchester united videos thread. Someone posted all the goals scored under Fergie from 1987 till 1992. Absolutely brilliant to watch the old greats!

    Just look at Giggs' impact in his first full season in 1992, lots of assists and goals for an 18/19 year old boy. Compared to that Ronaldo, Anderson and Nani debut seasons were nothing.

    Strachan looks class
  30. Jun 16, 2008
    #30

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert

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    Tim Vickery is no authority on the history of Brazilian football. His forte is the modern era and most certainly not Pele's.

    The true expert on Brazilian football is Tostao whose pieces are stunning.

    It depends on how much you're willing to invest and investigate the subject. The history of that league isn't so easy to come by for us in the UK, but it's no different for Brazilians to get info from their own league as it is for us and ours.

    I am fortunate ennough to have a few contacts from the country.

    No, you're still wrong. It's no different to the leagues across Europe such is the size and scale of the country in question. There are big states which would be equivlent to Spain, England, Italy or Germany and lots of small ones which would be no different to Holland and such nations. A state competition in a country like Brazil is nothing to sniff at.

    Brazil appeared in 4 world cup finals out of 6 between 1950 and 1970 without a single one of their players being huge fixtures in lands away from Brazil..playing in state championships across Brazil they honed their skills to be the best national team on the planet. If that is not indicative of league strength to you I'm going to think you've a screw loose.

    And I am not having a go at you, I'm saying your argument against the player was ill researched and ill considered given the outstanding achievements of the NT at that time, which is the best in the entire history of the World Cup. No other nation comes close to 4 finals from 6 WC's. It's a stunning achievement. Even more so when 99% or something equally daft of their world cup winning players stayed in Brazil for the best parts of their careers. That directly conflicts with anything you could say about state competition.
  31. Jun 16, 2008
    #31

    afrocentricity Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid

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    Pretty conclusive that, Forti does know his onions though...
  32. Jun 16, 2008
    #32

    afrocentricity Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid

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    Cesc... any links?
  33. Jun 16, 2008
    #33

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    Comparing generations so different is always difficult. How one would fare in a different era is something that can never really be determined. Its all about opinions so i'll put forth mine.

    I agree with Brad that simply coming up with some revolutionary skills is no guarantee of one being one of the greatest ever. Great contributers to the game sure.

    Its like saying the guy who came up with spin bowling is the best spinner of all time. Or the first good cricketer was probably one of the best ever.

    Was this guy head and shoulders the best around? How great was the competition? Were there other wonderfully talented players? Was he pushed to the brink mentally? Was he a winner? Did he face constant close scrutiny?

    I'm just talking generally. Maybe these above questions are answered and in a positive note for the player in question.
  34. Jun 16, 2008
    #34

    cesc's_mullet Get a haircut Hippy!

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    Well said.

    Personally I always thought Maradona was the best ever, but after I watched this doco I obviously took a shining to this fella.

    All in all I think you have to take his record at face value. Yes the leagues were poor back then, but that was the standard of the day. They were poor because the game hadn’t had time to evolve, the techniques weren’t given time to develop and be refined. The equipment was basic, their boots where simply their work shoes. There weren’t any gyms. There weren’t any trainers/coaches/specialist-trainers and specialists.

    There wasn’t even any money involved. Friedenreich played for free, which is another factor in itself. Where’s the motive to improve your game? There’s no big money contracts on offer at another club, there’s not even money to buy yourself a uniform.

    So for mine, I say it’s all simply neutral.
  35. Jun 16, 2008
    #35

    cesc's_mullet Get a haircut Hippy!

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    http://uktv.co.uk/documentary/item/aid/555902

    This was the documentary, I don't know if you can purchase it or catch it again on a UK/US station. I'll try and dig up a few more links.

    As for the player himself, he only ever played in one recorded game - against Germany I think (they won like 8-0).

    There was one old man who had lived to see Friedenreich and the more modern day greats, Pele, Maradona and that German dude. And he said that they didn’t compare to the great man.
  36. Jun 16, 2008
    #36

    cesc's_mullet Get a haircut Hippy!

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    Hahah blow me down! It looks like the damn thing's on TODAY!

    When is it on?
    History of Football is next on at 2.00am on Tuesday 17th June on UKTV Documentary

    What a fecking stroke of luck.
  37. Jun 16, 2008
    #37

    cesc's_mullet Get a haircut Hippy!

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    Here's a profile I've just found from this 'Brazil legends of the game' thread on some forum.

    http://www.soccerpulse.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=83989

    Artur Friedenreich

    The top scorer in the history of football, the first black superstar of the beautiful game, Brasil’s first sporting hero. It seems an almost perfect description of the great Pelé, but it is not. It is instead a description of the late, great striker Artur Friedenreich.

    Born in Sao Paulo on July 18th 1892 to a German immigrant and a former black slave, Friedenreich would go on to be one of the greatest strikers in the history of the game. He was fast, skilful, good in the air, and a great goal scorer. He started his career in 1910, aged 18, he played fir many Paulista clubs including Paulistano (1910 – 1929) and Sao Paulo (1929 – 1931) including the Carioca club Flamengo (1931 – 1934). He won he Liga Paulista on 7 separate occasions and was top scorer 9 times.

    Whilst being Brasil’s first sporting hero, he was also a victim of racism. He was one of the first, and at the time one of the only, black footballers to play in Brasil. Such was his victimization, that he had to use white powder to ‘dye’ his black hair before every match to avoid racist chanting. The process was a long one and Friendenreich was almost always the last player to take to the pitch.

    He did not however, suffer racism when he played in Europe, in fact, he was loved and revered. When Brasil toured Europe in 1925, their first such tour, he showed the Europeans a revolutionary style of football. It was on this tour that he acquired the nickname ‘O Rei de Futbal’ or ‘The King of Football’. Another nickname he was given was ‘The tiger’ for his powerful, yet agile style of play.

    For Brasil he played 22 times, scoring 10 goals, making his debut in 1914. He won the 1919 and 1922 editions of the Copa America, scoring 10 goals over the two tournaments. Controversy surrounded him in 1930 though, in the first ever World Cup, held in Uruguay, when he was not picked. Officially he was said to be injured, but there were many controversy surrounding his exclusion from the squad. One was racism, he was not picked because he was black some said, while others said it was because he wasn’t Carioca. Friedenreich was Paulista, and there was only 1 non-Carioca in the Brasil World Cup squad.

    Throughout his 26 year career, Friedenreich scored an amazing 1239 goals in 1329 games, more than fellow Brasilian Pelé. His favoured stadium was said to be the Morumbi, Sao Paulo’s stadium. He gave joy to thousands and received deserved praised from most, but from some he received nothing but hell as he was racially abused. His successor, Leonidas da Silva, would sadly suffer a similar fate.
  38. Jun 16, 2008
    #38

    afrocentricity Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid

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    Nice one cock nose ;)
  39. Jun 16, 2008
    #39

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    india
    How about someone pull out the goal scoring feats of other players of the same era as Pele from the Brazillian as well as other leagues?
  40. Jun 16, 2008
    #40

    cesc's_mullet Get a haircut Hippy!

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    Was this guy head and shoulders the best around?
    Yes. He was so far above the rest it was incredible. Well if the sources are to be believed, he certainly was.

    How great was the competition? Obviously poor. But I’ve covered this a few times up there, but in short – poor back then is the equivalent of great now – the game evolves, equipment/techniques are refined. etc.

    A great example of this is the one I also posted up there, where three internationals (Guy Demel and 2 others) from one of the German sides where doing tricks with the ball. They then tried the same tricks wearing the boots they used back in the old days and couldn’t even juggle the ball, let alone do anything else.

    Were there other wonderfully talented players? Not of this calibre. Though there must’ve been a few talented players as the games were highly entertaining (apparently), and they toured Germany and beat them, the then best side, 8-0. Obviously that’s the select talent, but there must’ve been a few.

    Was he pushed to the brink mentally? Was he a winner? Did he face constant close scrutiny?
    Yes. Yes. And Yes.

    This was back in a day where intense racial discrimination was prevalent. White players could not be carded. Black players were allowed to be chopped and mistreated and nothing would come of it. He even had to wear a hairnet around in public so as to prevent his frizzy hair rising the ire of anti-black people. Someone else in here said he even powdered his face so he could pass off as white (he was only half-black).