Auction-Trade Madness Draft - QF: crappy/Indnyc vs 2mufc0/Theon

Discussion in 'Draft Games Forum' started by Edgar Allan Pillow, Mar 12, 2018.

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With players at career peak, who will win this match?

Poll closed Mar 13, 2018.
  1. Team crappy/Indnyc

    42.4%
  2. Team 2mufc0/Theon

    57.6%
  1. Mar 12, 2018
    #1

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    [​IMG] VS [​IMG]
    .................................... TEAM INDNYC/CRAPPY ............................................................................................ TEAM 2MUFC0 / THEON ..................................................


    TEAM INDNYC/CRAPPY

    Key Points

    - The team set up is all about Maradona. He is THE GOAT as far as I am concerned and if allowed to play even close to his best, capable of winning the game against any opposition.
    - Hierro is capable and has the license to join the midfield battle as required. He is intelligent enough footballer to know as and when to time his position in defence or midfield.
    - Rivaldo is going play a key role to run the channel in opposition's defence. He played the exact same role in Brazil 2002 and his movement would be key to disrupt opposition's defensive positioning.

    Opposition based thoughts

    Midfield battle - Given opposition's squad my best guess they will start with a MF 4 ala Cryuff's dream team. On face of it, the battle looks lop sided but you can't ask for a worse 3 opponents than Maradona, Keane and Lerby to go up against in MF (Not to mention Hierro being a factor there plenty of time too).

    Attack - I am struggling to see how opposition's defensive set up is going to keep out Riva+Rivaldo+Maradona. Especially when you have Koeman in there, a pretty attacking CB. I known Haan is capable of dropping into defence but he is not capable of taking on Maradona in anyway. Once any of the full backs join the attack, it is going to get even worse. When Alaba is up his flank, who is tracking who between him, Rivaldo and Maradona?. Even if the opposition will have more possession, our team is capable of countering well and opposition's set up seems ill suited to stop the same.

    Defence - The opposition as a whole lacks players who can provide natural width. I know the whole Cryuff's dream team thesis but that is a very hard formation to get right and I don't buy it as a perfect system anyway. Up against a tight defensive line, not to mention a 5 man one, concentrating too much of the play through the middle seems like a bad tactic. Having Thiago Silva and Abidal around Hierro also means we would be able to deal with the either wide forward much better than a normal 4 man back line would. Both Gullit and Cryuff would also fall into an area manned by trio of Hierro, Keane and Lerby. I know opposition will claim that likes of Neeskens would also be a factor but presence of Gullit is directly going to impact his role aka Holland 74 IMO.

    Overall, we believe we have a more cohesive team and key players in better match ups against opposition players to swing it in our favour.


    TEAM 2MUFC0 / THEON

    FORMATION: Cruyff 3-4-3

    Our team is inspired by Holland '74 and the Barcelona 90-94 Dream Team under Johan Cruyff. The team has been built around Cruyff in terms of personal, formation and philosophy - we have proven partnerships all over the pitch and are setup to dominate the match against the opposition.

    In attack Cruyff will be playing his false #9 role with Hristo Stoichkov and Faas Wilkes as roaming wide forwards - the physicality and technical quality of Stoichkov ('94 Ballon d'Or winner who scored 91 goals in 174 games for Cruyff at Barcelona) well complimented by the goalscoring dynamism of Wilkes (Cruyff's hero growing up, who rattled 35 goals in 38 games for Holland). The epitome of a 'total footballer' and '87 Ballon d'Or winner Ruud Gullit is moved into a central attacking position able to influence the game with his pace, strength, creativity and movement, regularly interchanging with the front three in a fluid, Dutch set-up. In midfield Neeskens/Van Hanegem/Haan provide the perfect '74 Holland totaalvoetbal base - set to dominate possession whilst also providing immense defensive steel in the middle of the park.

    Defensively the team is marshalled by Ronald Koeman - arguably the finest defensive passer in the history of the game and the archetypical sweeper for this style. He will replicate the role he played in Cruyff's Barcelona, running the game from the back and launching counter attacks with his exquisite passing. On the right Burgnich remains the gold standard as a defensive right back and he will look to tuck in besides Koeman (as he did for Picchi in the Grande Inter side of the mid-60's). Partnering Koeman in the left is Paolo Montero, a physically gifted defender in terms of speed and power but also more than competent on the ball. In goal is Andreas Kopke, IFFHS World's best keeper in 1996 and German footballer of the year 1993.

    WHY WE WILL WIN:
    1. Dominance of possession: With an abundance of ball-playing ability throughout the side we will look to dominate territory and dictate the game, suffocating the supply to Maradona who will be operating in central areas vs our crowded midfield three. With the amount of possession and offensive quality throughout the side we are bound to create chances and score.
    2. Complimentary style: The core of our team is made up of players who know and succeeded in the total football philosophy - this chemistry throughout the side enhances the performance of the team as it did in ‘74 and Cruyff's Dream Team.
    3. Distribution from deep: An undoubted legend of the game and regular one man defence for Cruyff’s Barcelona, in this sort of set-up Koeman becomes turbo-charged in terms of his influence. With Burgnich and Montero tucking in and Haan capable of dropping into the back line when needed, Koeman has the perfect platform to instigate attacks and provide the platform for our possession based style in midfield and attack.
    4. Opposition defence: If the opposition go with the same back line as last round our attackers will enjoy a lot of success. Abidal was a fine left back, but a tier below what’s required as a LCB against Cruyff, Gullit, Neeskens and co. Thiago Silva is also a weak link in their backline, normally there is nothing wrong with him in earlier rounds but against GOAT level players he's not proven. We also expect Cruyff to cause problems for Hierro. Irwin played the majority of his best football as a LB in a back four, he is out of position as a RWB.
  2. Mar 12, 2018
    #2

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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  3. Mar 12, 2018
    #3

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Good luck Crappy/Indy.

    Again i would reiterate our writeup that i don't buy that defence at all, Abidal and Silva have been covered in the writeup and also Irwin playing in an role alien to him. Then you have Alaba who isn't fully proven yet, he had a few great seasons at the start of his career but now has tailed off, It's too early to rate him (bit like the Kane argument in the other game) against GOAT attackers he's not proven. Have reservations over not only quality but also the makeup with unproven players and players out of position.
  4. Mar 12, 2018
    #4

    harms Way Staff

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    Don't like Alaba-Irwin as a pair of wingbacks at this point.
  5. Mar 12, 2018
    #5

    sincher "I will cry if Rooney leaves"

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    Had to go with the Theon/2-0 attack.
  6. Mar 12, 2018
    #6

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Scout

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    Just to address this criticism.

    I absolutely have no problem with Alaba at LWB in this set up. He has been great for Bayern for some time as an attacking LB. He does not get the same hype as some of the Brazilian full backs but I don't intend to change him at all in this tournament if we proceed further.

    Irwin as RB is not the first choice for a 352 set up, I agree. But in this particular match up, he is a good outlet to go out wide and pump in crosses. Is he someone who is going to win this match for us? No. Is he that out of place that it will cost us the game? No. Infact as a defender he will be handy in a back 5 when we are defending deep.
  7. Mar 12, 2018
    #7

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Scout

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    Maradona, Rivaldo and Riva ain't bad either but fair enough :)
  8. Mar 12, 2018
    #8

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    This. But they are more suited to soak up the pressure by the attacking lineup fielded by the oppositions. On the counter, Maradona/Rivaldo will be deadly.
  9. Mar 12, 2018
    #9

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Scout

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    Just to address some other points.

    - I don't understand the "tier" talk. It is pointless. I remember I lost a match up against polaroid once even though he had a shit RB but I simply did not have a proper LW to exploit that so it did not matter. Abidal in this set up is absolutely fine. I remember @antohan frequently singing his praises in this kind of role. I mean opposition does not have an DM in any tier close to Maradona. That should automatically then means that Diego will run riot....

    - I don't buy the opposition set up at all. Gullit presence is going to seriously hamper Neeskens' role ala 74. I don't see how he can play the same role with Gullit in there.

    - Is opposition set up a really a best of both world marriage between Dutch 74 and Barca dream team early 90s? I don't see it. You don't have proper wide forwards like Renesbrink/Rep to take up central position when Cryuff vacates it. Neesken's role is compromised. Does Gullit at AM dove tail well with Cryuff dropping in similar place? Gullit can attack the box but it was more of joining some forward already there. Then Haan at DM position means no playmaker ala Pep.

    - With all this possession talk, opposition simply does not have enough defensive prowess to stop Maradona, Rivaldo and Riva.
  10. Mar 12, 2018
    #10

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Haan was a brilliant footballer, his skillset was so complete he was able to play competently in several positions. He's absolutely fine as a ball playing DM.

    The point about Abidal is that's not his peak position, could he play CB? yes he could, but he spent the majority of his career as a LB and made his name there.
  11. Mar 12, 2018
    #11

    idmanager Banned

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    I personally like Gullit a lot over here. Could see him dropping way deeper here. Probably one of the few who could play behind false 9 Cryuff and still offer a lot while not being in the way of either the players behind or ahead of him. Good foil defensively and offensively as well.
  12. Mar 12, 2018
    #12

    Indnyc Full Member

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    To add to what Crappy is saying, our set up is a perfect to counter attack the possession style game for the opposition. I would argue that our defense is more suited to defend their attack than theirs is to defend ours.

    There is absolutely no width in the team. With a 3 man defense + Keane and Lerby the center is going to be incredibly congested
  13. Mar 12, 2018
    #13

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Scout

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    This is a non sense argument against Abidal. Neither Montero or Burgnich played this exact same role either. Playing in a back 5 and back 3 in this kind of ambitious set up is very different.

    Even Gullit's Milan did not play proper total football, why is it automatically assumed he can link up well with Cryuff and Neeskens etc then?

    Abidal has all facets to suceed as a LCB.
  14. Mar 12, 2018
    #14

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Scout

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    I mean is opposition plan really going to leave Maradona as it is? I understand Barca and total football philosophy but you can't just enter any game against a proper GOAT of the game with out any specific tactics against someone like Diego. As per their game plan Koeman will play his natural game and move up and then Haan drops back. In that case if and when we launch any counter, who is really going to mark and tackle Maradona? Haan is ill equipped to deal with Rivaldo or Riva running at him even if he is supported by either wide CB and Koeman tackling Maradona in midfield seems a stretch. When Diego is making these kind of dribbling runs from midfield -



    .. there is simply no opposition player on the park capable of stopping that as per these tactics.
  15. Mar 12, 2018
    #15

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Because there's a big difference between playing full back and CB, it's a completely different skillset. Burgnich and Montero spent their careers playing in central defensive positions while Abidal played there sparsely.
  16. Mar 12, 2018
    #16

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    I don't think the opposition have the full backs to hurt us tbh.

    In central areas it won't be a man marking job, Neeskens, WVH and Haan will work together to nullify their attackers and congest the midfield area, Diego won't find much space at all.

    Our system is based on pulling players out of position and we have players like Cruyff, Gullit, Stoichkov, Neeskens, WVH all capable of doing that and finding space. We are more equipped to play in a congested central midfield because of this. Not to mention Gullit offering more defensively than Maradona also helps our numbers in midfield.
  17. Mar 12, 2018
    #17

    Gio 6 times Redcafe Draft Winner

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    I think he's fine in that role. If you look at his Barcelona peak, he typically tucked in as Alves repeatedly bombed forward on the other side, so it was a very similar gig to what he's got here.
  18. Mar 12, 2018
    #18

    Indnyc Full Member

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    Alaba is pretty much in his element here to bomb forward as there is nobody attacking that flank.. There is plenty of defensive cover to keep the shape against a primarily narrow attack
  19. Mar 12, 2018
    #19

    sincher "I will cry if Rooney leaves"

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    Yeah, reasonable reasonable!

    All might depend on whether VAR is in use or not. Your lot's use of hands (over face and on ball) could be a problem if it is :)
  20. Mar 12, 2018
    #20

    Indnyc Full Member

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    In essence, i think the opposition has a Plan A but against a team where there is a good shape and great counterattacking skills, i feel they will struggle to break us down.

    Rivaldo is playing in his favored position and has a free role along with Maradona.Here is a magnificent performance against Real Madrid.



    The opposition defense is more susceptible to be pulled apart and leave gaps given their style of play.. Neither Burgnich nor Montero is suited to play Total Football
  21. Mar 12, 2018
    #21

    oneniltothearsenal Arse Lover Scout

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    Tricky one to decide. While I really like the synergies throughout 2mu/theon side the dream team back 3 tactic worries me against that Rivaldo-Riva-Maradona spear. Then again, I don't like Irwin in that attacking RWB role. Not sure he has the right skillset to complement the front trio the way they need. Van Hanagem-Neeskens vs. Keane-Lerby could be the decisive battles.
  22. Mar 12, 2018
    #22

    Theon Full Member

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    Abidal was a fine fullback, completely agree with that and I always liked him as a player. It was more that just in this context against such a diverse and cohesive attack IMO you could do with more of a natural centre back/pure defensive specialist than Abidal given he’s up against Cruyff, Gullit and co. With Thiago Silva and Hierro I think it’s a potentially a little bit softer than you’d want. Agree it’s not a massive problem positionally and he’d actually fit fairly well in Montero’s position (as more of an offensive option).
  23. Mar 12, 2018
    #23

    Raees Legal Guardian of the Football forums

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    Have both featured in sides which defended with a high line?
  24. Mar 12, 2018
    #24

    Indnyc Full Member

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    Irwin in the right wing back role isn't the best fit but he isn't going to be that decisive. I'll quote what crappy said before

    In a lot of senses, Irwin helps us a lot more to become a more defensive right back and Alaba can freely attack from the other side
  25. Mar 12, 2018
    #25

    Raees Legal Guardian of the Football forums

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  26. Mar 12, 2018
    #26

    Indnyc Full Member

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    Don't think so.. Both are more known for their roles in Italian defenses which rarely played high lines.. Burgnich especially was more used to playing in the defensive catenaccio system. Montero and Burgnich are going to have to do a lot of defending with Koeman known for joining the already congested midfield
  27. Mar 12, 2018
    #27

    Gio 6 times Redcafe Draft Winner

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    Yeah. Obviously we don't know much about Wilkes - do share if you can - but I see Abidal matching up fairly well there against a quick and direct wing-forward with good feet. As you said, Abidal would fit well in both teams and I like the balance his pace provides next to Hierro here.
  28. Mar 12, 2018
    #28

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Although the attack is great on paper they are 3 attackers who liked to drift left, it's not that balanced.

    As for the defence it comes down to how much you rate Silva./Alaba and out of position Irwin against GOAT attackers. I would fancy Gullit, Cruyff, Wilkes and Stoichkov to do damage against that lot.

    As for the midfield I think we have the edge in terms of quality as well with Gullit being able to drop deep.
  29. Mar 12, 2018
    #29

    oneniltothearsenal Arse Lover Scout

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    In general I'd agree but against this opponent I think you need an attacking RWB with your tactic against the Cruyff 343. For me the counter to that tactic was Tele Santana's 4231 in the 93 Intercontinental Cup. Palhinha was the LW and Cafu the RW.

    Against 2mu/theo's personnel, they have Neeskens on the right (who played RB in EC final) and Van Hanagem on the left (whose main weakness IMO is slow pace), so I think you'd want your attacking WB to be on the right going against Van Hanagem rather than left against Neeskens. As it is your tactic seems to play right into the strengths of the Cruyff343. Well except Maradona who isn't a good match against any defense.
  30. Mar 12, 2018
    #30

    Indnyc Full Member

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    I want to highlight a key member of our attack in Luigi Riva. A hero for Cagliari, he was the driving force behind their sole Scudetto and scored an incredible 164 goals in 315 games. Riva also remains the record goalscorer for the Italian national team with 35 goals in 42 matches. He drove the Italian national team to the 1968 European Championship and Runner up in 1970

    In fact his goal scoring record is even better when put into context that he played against the heights of the defensive catenaccio system.

  31. Mar 12, 2018
    #31

    Indnyc Full Member

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    Irwin was fine as right back.. Playing Hierro, Silva and Abidal is a very complimentary back 3 with good box to box midfielders in front of them.. Your attack is great but i do believe we can contain them

    I disagree on the bolded part. Rivaldo is so underrated here.. He was perfectly comfortable playing left, right or center. When he is played on the left people say it wasn't his preferred position. His best work was when he was given a free role to drift around and have a free role. It is the same case for Riva and Maradona as they have enough pace to devastate any defense
  32. Mar 12, 2018
    #32

    Indnyc Full Member

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    Valid points.. Irwin however wasn't a mug and can definitely provide crosses and support the attack when needed
  33. Mar 12, 2018
    #33

    oneniltothearsenal Arse Lover Scout

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    That's odd because he won his Ballon playing on the left and was better there (including international) than when he played in the center. He might have liked the center better but his peak was on the left imo
  34. Mar 12, 2018
    #34

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Have to disagree mate played his best football on the left imo. As for Irwin he was a great left back in a back four.
  35. Mar 12, 2018
    #35

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Posted this in the last game on Wilkes:



    As for Wilkes see the article:

    FAAS WILKES

    Faas Wilkes (1923-2006) was Johan Cruyff's favourite footballer. And yet outside the Netherlands and Valencia few people have ever heard of him.

    The football encyclopaedia on my desk describes him, in its best Wolstenholmian prose, as tall, lean, splendidly gifted inside-forward with dazzling close control and a strong shot. He was, if the evidence of this clip was anything to go by, a mean dribbler although he does look a bit gormless facing the camera.

    Like Cruyff in the early 1970s, Wilkes was not content to be the best in Dutch club football. He was one of the first Dutch players to become an idol overseas, dazzling for Valencia from 1953 to 1956 even though he was already 30 when he joined them. His path to the top has since been well trodden by the likes of Cruyff, Neeskens, Kluivert and Sneijder.

    Wilkes paid a price for his determination: at that time, the KNVB refused to select players for the national team who played professionally abroad. If it hadn't been for that policy, he would surely have won far more than 38 caps. He scored 35 goals in those games, including four on his debut against Luxembourg and was the all-time top scorer for Holland until Dennis Bergkamp surpassed him in 1998.

    Wilkes, his international team-mate and inside forward Kees Rijvers, and striker Bertus de Harder who looks uncannily like Arjen Robben’s granddad all left Holland to progress. Rijvers and Harder went to France, a career move that is almost unimaginable today. Rijvers later won the UEFA Cup as PSV coach in 1978.

    Wilkes decision to play overseas didn't stop him becoming a legend in his home city Rotterdam. The ultimate accolade for a successful sportsman from the home of Feyenoord (and Xerxes, the club he played for) is to be given the Faas Wilkes award.

    Wilkes Wikipedia page suggests that he, along with his peers Kick Smit and Abe Lenstra, inspired the Dutch cartoon character Kick Wilstra, a wonder centre forward as he is billed on his official site. With Lenstra and Rijvers, Wilkes formed the Golden Inside Trio, a pack of three inside forwards who, in the 1940s and 1950s, gave Dutch youngsters like Cruyff hope that their footballer wouldn't always be mediocre. You can find their stats here and Wilkes own game-by-game record here.

    Inside forwards don't exist anymore, not in the old sense of attackers who would slot in on either side of the centre forward, between the main striker and the wingers. Their days were numbered as soon as European football began its gradual, irreversible shift away from 2-3-5 “ now there's an obsolete formation I'd love to see Otto Rehhagel reintroduce with Greece“ and from its successor WM where the inside-forwards played behind the wingers and the number-nine.

    But Wilkesfame has outlived his old position. In a recent fans all-time Dutch XI he was in the squad, alongside Lenstra, and one fan suggested he looks like Ossie Ardiles twin brother. Actually, to me he looks more like the long lost brother of Andy Roxburgh.

    If he'd played a decade or so later, he might be as famous as Cruyff. But when he died, two years ago, at the age of 82, one Dutch fan broke into a gaming forum to announce that Faas Wilkes, our first great footballer, died today.

    Which, coming from an Amsterdammer, was some compliment.


    Read more athttps://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/criminally-underrated-faas-wilkes#c78QTUGsOXmumx3E.99
  36. Mar 12, 2018
    #36

    Theon Full Member

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    Great player.

    He was left footed and preferred the left channel though (actually started as a left winger) so not sure he's the best fit with Rivaldo.

    One of his best assets was also his aerial ability and I don't think there's a huge amount of service on either flank.
  37. Mar 12, 2018
    #37

    harms Way Staff

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  38. Mar 12, 2018
    #38

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Gullit seems to be overlooked here who imo is just as good as if not better than Rivaldo.

    [​IMG]

    A complete and versatile player, Gullit epitomised the ethos of Total football as he was naturally adept in several positions, and was capable of aiding his team defensively as well as offensively due to his work-rate, ball-winning abilities, and tactical intelligence in addition to his skill and physical qualities

    Gullit started off as a street footballer in Amsterdam but before long he found a club and by the time he was 16 he had made his debut for HFC Haarlem in the Dutch first division. Subsequently, Gullit moved to Dutch club Feyenoord and following his evolution into an attacking midfielder, who could also play as forward, he moved to PSV Eindhoven. He became one of the world’s best attacking players during his time at PSV Eindhoven but his best years as a footballer were reserved for Italian club AC Milan.

    He was the big summer transfer market hit in 1987, along with the other Dutch Marco Van Basten. Ruud Gullit soon became the symbol of the first triumphs achieved by Arrigo Sacchi. Unpredictable, physically powerful, deadly in the air, he started as a sweeper and then moved forward becoming one of the finest attackers in the world. The Golden Ball was the first of a series of honours won with Milan, including three league titles, two European Champion Clubs’ Cups, two Intercontinental Cups, two European Super Cups and three Italian League Super Cups.

    A year after joining AC Milan, Gullit led the Dutch national team to the European Championships crown. He scored the first goal in the 2-0 win in the final against the Soviet Union.

    After leaving AC Milan, Gullit moved to Italian club Sampdoria in 1993 and at the end of the season, he helped the club win the Italian Cup. At the end of that season, he rejoined AC Milan for a short while but eventually went back to Sampdoria and finished another season there.

    Honours
    HFC Haarlem[48]
    Feyenoord[48]
    PSV[48]
    Milan[48]
    Sampdoria[48]
    InternationalEdit
    Netherlands[48]
    ManagerEdit
    ClubEdit

    Chelsea[48]
    IndividualEdit
  39. Mar 12, 2018
    #39

    Raees Legal Guardian of the Football forums

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    :drool: haven't watched it yet.. but that is my evening viewing for sure.
  40. Mar 12, 2018
    #40

    harms Way Staff

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    Location:
    Moscow
    Another tough one, can't decide yet. It would've been much easier if c/i had a more potent (in my eyes) wingback pair — it would've stretched 2/T's defence and left Koeman for dead, but they don't... Maradona with Rivaldo and Riva are still good enough to bypass that defensive unit with ease though. But do they have enough to outscore them?