Auction-Trade Madness Draft - R1: Pat vs idmanager

Discussion in 'Draft Games Forum' started by Edgar Allan Pillow, Feb 23, 2018.

?

With players at Career peaks, who will win this match?

Poll closed Feb 24, 2018.
  1. Team Pat_Mustard

    54.8%
  2. Team idmanager

    45.2%
  1. Feb 23, 2018
    #1

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    [​IMG] VS [​IMG]

    ...................................... TEAM PAT MUSTARD ............................................................................. TEAM IDMANAGER ...................................




    TEAM PAT MUSTARD

    Formation: 4-4-2 Diamond

    Tactics:

    Quite simply get the ball to my crown jewels, the immense forward tandem of Ronaldo and Romario. This is drafting nirvana: a proven partnership between two all-time greats who plundered 34 international goals between them in a single year, yet it was sufficiently short-lived to leave every football obsessive of a certain age wondering what might have been had circumstances not conspired against them.

    Between the sticks, Ivo Viktor is one of only three goalkeepers ever to boast a top-three finish in the Ballon d’Or standings. Our full backs provide the width in a narrow-ish formation. Bessonov was a prototypical modern full back with excellent pace, and Pavoni was both a rugged defender and an excellent overlapper with an eye-catching goalscoring record and an immense trophy haul of 5 Copa Libertadores with Independiente. Our centre backs are a complementary pairing of the excellent defensive organiser Zmuda and one of the all-time great stoppers in Forster.


    The midfield configuration will be somewhat familiar to Ro-Ro, with two superb creators in Giles and Stojkovic, and two robust ball-winners in Bonhof and Voronin. I’m actually doing Giles/Voronin/Bonhof a disservice by pigeon-holing them in that manner, as they were all first rate all-rounders. This is one of the best diamonds I’ve constructed, with Giles (who started his career as a winger before converting to central midfield) and Bonhof (excellent at wing back as well as midfield) in the oft-problematic side midfield roles. They’re facing a brilliant trio in Varela/Tigana/Rivera, but with their level of individual quality and synergy they’re more than good enough to stamp their mark on the match and set the stage for Ronaldo and Romario.

    TEAM IDMANAGER

    The team is built around Gianni Rivera, the greatest attacking player in AC Milan's history.

    The thing with the attacking midfielder or play maker position is, throughout history, there have been various players with various styles, with different kind of players around them.
    These styles sometimes get lost in translation in draft games. So its important to understand how Rivera went about his game.

    1. For an average AM, he started from really deep positions.
    2. Most of his attacking moves started from behind the half way line.
    3. He usually played ahead of a 2 man pivot where he could then take the ball and initiate attacks after the men behind him won it.
    4. Although he was not extremely fast, he knew how to carry the ball forward with his brilliant dribbling and control on the ball.
    5. He was extremely unselfish and his first instinct was always to find the right pass in the final third or in the build up.
    6. He was comfortable drifting wide to either of the wings and hence worked well when played in a fluid system where the wide players could come in and exchange positions with him.
    7. And despite all this, he scored his fair share of goals. (170 in 600 games)

    If there is one game which displayed all the above point in abundance, it was the 1969 European Cup final which AC Milan won 4-1 against Cryuff's Ajax.
    Rivera was the star of the match and eventually won the Ballon D'or the same year.
    Below is the video of his performance in the 1969 UCL final.

    In attack, he is joined by Rivaldo on the left and Giuseppe Meazza on the right and George Weah upfront.
    Rivaldo was comfortable drifting out wide and cutting in as well and would work well with Rivera.
    Meazza would be in his favorite role in the inside right sided role while also providing an additional option to enter the box and score.
    All 4 of them are capable of being as fluid and flexible as possible with positions being exchanged at will and making any sort of marking a nightmare.
    All 4 of them being prolific goal scorers adds to the advantage.

    Rivaldo is joined on the left by Jose Antonio Camacho who was one of the most balanced LB's and the best of the lot in the 1980.
    Rivaldo and Camacho is a tasty left flank.
    With Meazza drifting in and Zambrotta overlapping, the right flank shall be as dangerous as the left.

    The two man pivot behind Rivera comprises of Jean Tigana and Obdulio Varela. Probably the two easiest players to sell in the setup.

    The two CB's at the heart of the defence comprises Alan Hansen and Hector Chumpitaz.
    Hansen was an amazing reader of the game, deceptively quick with his tall feet and long strides, and one of the best defenders to come out of Britain.
    Alongside him is Hector Chumpitaz, one of the best defenders of all time and easily in the top 5 South American CBs of all time.
    He was super fast and super physical. Exactly the kind of defenders one would need against the Brazilian duo of Ronaldo and Romario.
    While Ronaldo and Romario look tasty, Hansen and Chumpitaz should be able to deal with them with their complimentary partnership and attributes.
  2. Feb 23, 2018
    #2

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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  3. Feb 23, 2018
    #3

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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  4. Feb 23, 2018
    #4

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    Two excellently drafted team. Tough luck for them to face each other.

    At initial glance, it looks like idmamanger has an advantage. He's well set up to handle Pat's mostly central thread, whilst Rivaldo and Meazza operating between the lines out wide would really test Pavoni and Bessonov.
  5. Feb 23, 2018
    #5

    harms Way Staff

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    Great teams, no clear favourite here.
    Voronin-Bonhof :drool: And idmanager's midfield three is simply brilliant, love the balance (and even the formation picture — good decision to move Rivera deeper)
  6. Feb 23, 2018
    #6

    Lord SInister Full Member

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    Ro-Ro damn.:drool:
    But idmanager has absolute top draw midfield.
    I would like to learn more about how is idmanager going to use Meazza, as he is the absolute top drawer of his team, and should be one who sees the ball the most after Rivera starts most of the attacks.
  7. Feb 23, 2018
    #7

    harms Way Staff

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    Awesome
  8. Feb 23, 2018
    #8

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    It seems to be a very dynamic team. With Rivera able to operate deeper than usual #10s, it gives lot of flexibility for Meazza and Rivaldo to drift wide or cut in to middle making for a very flexible team with smooth transitions. Lovely!
  9. Feb 23, 2018
    #9

    Lord SInister Full Member

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  10. Feb 23, 2018
    #10

    Lord SInister Full Member

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    And Weah is possibly the best striker he could have gotten(apart from the absolute monster I have in my team:p;)).
  11. Feb 23, 2018
    #11

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    You havent seen that video before?
  12. Feb 23, 2018
    #12

    harms Way Staff

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    I've seen the game itself, but not the video
  13. Feb 23, 2018
    #13

    Indnyc Full Member

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    @idmanager Great team! Do you intend to st up as a counter attacking side?

    Additionally, will Varela be the runner/b2b player from midfield?
  14. Feb 23, 2018
    #14

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Good watch.
  15. Feb 23, 2018
    #15

    Raees Boing Boing Baggies

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    Rivera and Florian Albert.. would be beasts in the modern game.
  16. Feb 23, 2018
    #16

    oneniltothearsenal Arse Lover Scout

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    Pretty sure Tigana would be the b2b and Varela is the defensive midfield general organizing the defense
  17. Feb 23, 2018
    #17

    P-Nut0712 fan of well-known French footballer Fabinho

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    Saw Ro-Ro and thought this was going to be a walkover but idmanager has got such a balanced side that it's hard to call.

    @Pat_Mustard any chance of a bit more info on your defensive line. Not heard of most of them bar Forster and little bits about Zmuda
  18. Feb 24, 2018
    #18

    idmanager Full Member

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    Good luck @Pat_Mustard !
    Good job not starting Pedernera. I had a whole post ready on why him with Ro-Ro is a terrible combination :wenger:
  19. Feb 24, 2018
    #19

    idmanager Full Member

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    Coming to the game, the biggest weakness in Pat's side seems to be the left side of his team.
    Giles lacks defensive work rate to be functioning on the left side of a diamond in an all time game.

    That left side is facing Meazza constantly drifting in, Zambrotta forward down the flank, with Rivera and Weah both capable of loading that side even more.
    I wouldn't call Pavoni and Zmuda in the same class as their opponents as well to take care of them.
    In this scheme of things, putting a forward arrow on Pavoni is rather ambitious and just seems to be done to show some width in that diamond.
    He is going to be slaughtered if he thinks of going ahead. If not by Meazza and co, Zmuda will cut his throat for leaving him high and dry.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  20. Feb 24, 2018
    #20

    idmanager Full Member

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    From what I have read, Meazza was one player whose game was very different from the left and right.
    From the left, he was CR7-esque where he was more of a finisher , playing almost like a second striker from the left.
    While from the right, he was way more involved in the build up of the game while still being a goal threat constantly capable of appearing in the box and slotting home.

    His development as a player was very similar to that of a modern player.
    He got mature as a he grew old and began to be the talisman of the team who put equal emphasis on creating as on scoring.

    Meazza of course for all his skills was a very direct player. He liked to dribble and beat people but unlike many great dribblers, he wasn't a ball hogger from what I have read when I researched him in the 4-way draft.
    He idea was to always find a quick pass into the box when played from the right after beating a player or two if required. His stints in the 1934 and 1938 WCs was in the same role where he assisted goal after goal even though he was a prolific goal scorer himself, the best in those teams
    One thing I couldn't find was whether he liked to drop deep and although there is no strong evidence for it, the general consensus on various places on the internet seems to be that he was much more of a final third player rather than coming deep.

    His role from the right in my team is exactly like I mentioned above while sprinkling it with lots of fluidity and movement along with the three other versatile players around him.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  21. Feb 24, 2018
    #21

    idmanager Full Member

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    Thanks mate.

    We are going to be a very balanced outfit in both attack and defence.
    As in while we shall be able to hit hard on the counters, we will also try and build up chances on our own as well with the geniuses in the team.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  22. Feb 24, 2018
    #22

    idmanager Full Member

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    That is correct.
  23. Feb 24, 2018
    #23

    idmanager Full Member

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    I'll try to make it easier for you.
    Do you think Hansen and Chumpitaz are in same class as Ronaldo and Romario and have the right attributes and quality to handle them? And do you think Tigana and Varela are capable enough of stopping anything created from the centre?

    Coming to the other end, do you think Bessonov and Pavoni are of the same class and capable of handling Rivaldo/Camacho and Meazza/Zambrotta? Especially Pavoni who would hardly have any help from Giles. Do you think Zmuda is of the level to organize a defense against a team with as much fluidity and quality as mine?

    Who do you think apart from Ronaldo or Romario from his team can enter my squad?
    Leaving Ronaldo and Romario, don't you think almost every player in my squad will upgrade his team?

    To be fair, Ro-Ro is a great pairing but it runs into its match defensively with Hansen/Chumpitaz/Tigana/Varela. And when you look beyond those 2, the game gets way too one sided in every other department.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  24. Feb 24, 2018
    #24

    P-Nut0712 fan of well-known French footballer Fabinho

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    I agree with most of what you're saying which is why I didn't vote for Ro-Ro straight away and unless Pat can tell me more about why his defense is strong enough (as I said previously I don't know enough about them to judge) then I would be voting your way.
  25. Feb 24, 2018
    #25

    idmanager Full Member

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    Cheers mate.
  26. Feb 24, 2018
    #26

    Gio 4 times Redcafe Draft Winner

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    Loved watching Ronaldo and Romario at Le Tournoi in 1997 so it's great to see them paired up again. Solid diamond set-up and handy up against such a stacked trio and with the right type of full-back to make it click. The central defensive partnership is top class and highly complementary. It's not easy to think of a better hypotethical pairing around the early 1980s.

    Wasn't quite sure how idmanager was going to pull together that collection of inside forwards, but looks like it's been nailed. Weah is a grand foil and line leader too. Rivaldo had a fine rapport with Kluivert and you could see Weah ramping that up a notch or two.
    Zmuda is perfect in that role and the main reason why I haven't voted for your team yet.
  27. Feb 24, 2018
    #27

    harms Way Staff

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    It's hard to vote against Ronaldo/Voronin/Bonhof but went with idmanager at the end — something like 2:3
  28. Feb 24, 2018
    #28

    sincher "I will cry if Rooney leaves"

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    I voted idmanager. Possibly because he has Chumpitaz, the best named player in the draft.
  29. Feb 24, 2018
    #29

    idmanager Full Member

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    Dont get me wrong, I dont wrong him stylistically or even say he was a bad one. That defence still needs a much better top act of a CB though against the kind of attack its up against, especially with Pavoni having no support from Giles and constantly ending up 2 v 1. Not to forget, he is expected to go forward as well and provide width. That is too much for Zmuda to deal with.
  30. Feb 24, 2018
    #30

    idmanager Full Member

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    Thanks for the vote mate. Although I expected a kickass summary from you as usual :D
  31. Feb 24, 2018
    #31

    sincher "I will cry if Rooney leaves"

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    Yeah I'm looking at all these matches and it's making me tired just thinking about it. The Serie A 90s theme was right up my street n all so enjoyed that one. Some of these feckers I've never heard of.
  32. Feb 24, 2018
    #32

    idmanager Full Member

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    Haha there is a British draft coming up soon mate. Pre PL era.
  33. Feb 24, 2018
    #33

    idmanager Full Member

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    Giuseppe Meazza's story begins a hundred years before Jose Mourinho led Inter to their historic Triplete, when he was born in Milano on August 23, 1910. The young 'Peppe' had a love for football even as a boy, although his mother preferred to have him helping her run the family fresh fruit market stall. This was a completely different age than today. Football wasn't considered a worthy career so his mother saw no benefit to him wasting his time with the sport; she even went as far as to take his shoes away from him to discourage the lad from playing.

    Meazza had other ideas and learned to play in the streets, barefooted, and using a ball made of rags. As you will see later in this article, Meazza was never one to follow the rules. As a youngster, Meazza actually admired AC Milan, but was turned down by them for being too skinny. Inter weren't so easily dissuaded, and after a Nerazzurri scout witnessed him juggling his rag ball on the streets of Milan, he was quickly signed. Inter set to work bulking up their young talent with a diet of steak while honing his football skills.

    Meazza was, in fact, a player decades ahead of his time, with a scoring record of 241 goals in 348 games during his time at Inter, not to mention the additional 33 goals he scored in his 53 appearances for Italy, a feat that made him the Azzurri'shighest scoring player until 1973 when Gigi Riva broke the record. Despite his record being broken, 'Peppe' still holds second place all these years later.

    It wasn't just his scoring talent that made him such a fantastic footballer, he also possessed skills on the ball that would even have Lionel Messi mesmorized. He was a complete footballer who used his passion for dancing the tango to assist him on the pitch with his trademark twists and turns. Though not the tallest player, he was excellent in the air, had a truly inspiring vision for the game across the field of play, and by playing with both feet, he was a brilliant passer of the ball. All these skills meant he could not only score countless goals, but he also provided many for his teammates too.

    The famous Italian intellectual Luigi Veronelli once said of Meazza: "I also saw Pele playing. He did not achieve Meazza's elegant style of playing. One day, I witnessed him doing something astonishing. He stopped the ball with a bicycle kick, elevating himself two meters from the ground. Then he landed with the ball glued at his foot, dribbled over an astonished defender, and then went on to score a goal with one of his hallmark shots, sardonic and accurate to the millimeter."

    During the 1933 season, the Juventus goalkeeper, Giampiero Combi, made two bets with Meazza ahead of the game in Milan between Meazza's Ambrosiana Inter and Combi's Juventus. The first was that he claimed 'Peppe' could not repeat a stunning bicycle kick goal that he scored in training with the Italian national team against Combi a few weeks earlier, and the second was that Meazza would be unable to achieve his trademark goal of sidestepping the keeper and simply tapping the ball into the net against the Bianconeri shot-stopper.

    The day of the game came around, and Combi lost both bets as Meazza first scored an identical goal with a bicycle kick, and then 'Peppe' dribbled through the line of defenders before taking the ball past Combi to tap in the second. After the second goal, Combi jumped to his feet astounded, and insisted on shaking Meazza's hand mid-game.

    As you can see, Meazza, even by today's standards, could easily be described as one of, if not the best in the game. That being said, Meazza wasn't a model athlete by any means. He had a weakness for several vices which saw him drinking and frequenting brothels the night before matches. He was also the only Inter player at that time that was permitted to smoke.

    This love for alcohol and women often got the talented striker into trouble with the club's directors, as Meazza himself revealed once in an interview: "Luckily I lived near the stadium, and I managed to get there in a rush. My teammates and the coach looked at me disapprovingly. It was only five minutes before the kick-off, so I quickly changed and joined the team on the pitch. I could hear the Inter directors saying: 'We'll deal with him after the match. We'll find out what he's been up to.' Luckily I scored a hat-trick so afterwards no one said a word!"

    His huge talent meant that he could get away with almost anything, and he often took advantage of this. Even a night of heavy drinking and sex before the 1937 match against Juventus didn't stop the rebellious striker from scoring a brace, and taking the award for the best player on the pitch. The story goes that the Inter directors had to send two staff members to look for him when he didn't show up shortly before kick-off, and they found him snoring in bed and had to drag him half-asleep to the stadium, all the while telling about how the night before had made him feel like a lion.

    Of course, behaviour like that wouldn't be tolerated these days, no matter how good you were on the pitch, but all those years ago it was part of the charm of the man. The late great Peppino Prisco considered him to be the best of all time: "Meazza was great, unbeatable, even if he would occasionally run into a frightful crisis, caused by his intense sexual activity and his passion for the game. When he took over on the field, he did things that left the mouth ajar."

    Meazza eventually did sign for his boyhood team, Milan, and following his two year stint on the red side of Milan, he even played for Inter's other fierce rival, Juventus, as well as Varese and Atalanta. At the end of his career, he returned for his swan song with Inter as a player/coach. It was however, his 13 years with FC Internazionale between 1927 and 1940 that saw his greatest success, winning three Scudetti, a Coppa Italia title, and during the same period he even won two World Cups with the Italian national team. These achievements made him the first ever worldwide football superstar, and he was also the first player to gain a personal sponsor. Anyone who knows anything about football should consider him one of the greatest strikers in the history of the game.
  34. Feb 24, 2018
    #34

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Sorry for the late response mate.

    Bessonov was part of the excellent USSR generation of the 1980s, Very athletic and well-rounded. Here's some good posts on him from another forum:

    Ricardo Pavoni was one of the leaders of a highly successful Independiente team and won 5 Copa Libertadores. Owner of one of the great footballing moustaches:

    [​IMG]

    And a good post by Anto about him:

    Zmuda was an excellent defensive organiser - the main man in Poland's defensive line across their golden generation. This thread is a fun read, with Edgar inexpicably deciding to shit on Zmuda early on and Anto riding to his defence:

    http://www.redcafe.net/threads/lv-monopoly-d-r1-jayvin-vs-crappy.423021/
  35. Feb 24, 2018
    #35

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Cheers. I opted for Stojkovic for a few reasons. Firstly, I didn't want a debate about a pre-footage era player distracting from the wet dream that is Ro-Ro. That mightn't have been a big issue here as you're fielding Meazza yourself and he seems to be getting a good reception. Secondly, Pedernera was by all accounts an exceptionally dominant personality, and we don't really want or need that with the two heavy hitters in attack.
  36. Feb 24, 2018
    #36

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    I'm not sure where you're getting this impression of Giles from. The guy was a proper two-way CM, not some luxury playmaker in the Riquelme mode. He was famous/infamous for being a rough fecker in a particularly brutal era of British football, played most of his peak in midfield two, yet he's not going to bother doing any defensive work here? That doesn't make any sense. Here's an excerpt from a good interview with the Guardian.

  37. Feb 24, 2018
    #37

    idmanager Full Member

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    It is fairly known that Giles was the brains of that midfield and Bremner was the muscle.

    By dirty little bastards, it was not to do with their defensive side of game. It was because of the way they went about on the pitch with unfair play.

    Giles was a winger who was later converted to a CM by Don Revie to be the midfield orchestrator.

    If you are relying on him to provide cover, you are fighting a lost cause.

    Even the article you mentioned above speaks about the whole team in general and not Giles in particular.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  38. Feb 24, 2018
    #38

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    I think I'm suffering draft burn out as I just wasn't motivated for this at all, but the misguided Giles comments have fired me up a bit :lol:. A bit more from that Guardian interview with Giles:

    And an excerpt about Giles from Joe Lovejoy's terrific George Best biography:

    And some clips from a previous post I made on him, including a destruction of a Utd team containing Best and Charlton :eek:

  39. Feb 24, 2018
    #39

    idmanager Full Member

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    They are not misguided at all.
    I didn't question his ability to be creative, but if you expect him to defensively support Pavoni down that left flank, you are asking him to do something which was not a part of his game.
    Sure, he could kick a player or two like he did back in that Leeds team, but nothing more than that.

    I don't see anything in your above post as well to suggest he could help defensively consistently or otherwise.
  40. Feb 24, 2018
    #40

    idmanager Full Member

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    Ro-Ro is enough to keep the game interesting even without any effort mate. So easy to lose out due to the scan voters evidently :lol: