Bailing Ireland out

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Livvie, Nov 16, 2010.

  1. Nov 16, 2010
    #41

    golden_blunder mijn naam is Golden Blunder en ik hou team LVG

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    is the media reaction today in response to the throwaway comment made in the Dail by a minister? Something along the lines off "we should ask the queen if we can come back"
  2. Nov 16, 2010
    #42

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    All valid, and I said it could be modified. But as abuse goes and the effect of the abuse goes, your mate and any doleys are way down the list. Some on the dole especially now are really in need of it and I think a society is best judged by how it treats those in need. There will be abuse but personally I think it's worth it and there are always ways to means test more effectively.

    But my main point is not that I don't want to review the social welfare system, because like most facets of the government it's poorly run, but that in the scheme of things they are not the people that fecked things up and are still living the highest of lives. Not by a long shot. To be honest I think it's a godsend for the establishment that we would point the fingers at doleys in any thread about the dire financial mess we are in. They'll be loving it.
  3. Nov 16, 2010
    #43

    Eyepopper Lowering the tone since 2006

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    My mate left school in 1995 never did a days work until 2003 so it had nothing to do with anything but pure choice and was never asked why... I know lots of stories like that and bet most people do. It shouldn't be possible on the scale that it has been possible on.

    I have no problem with people on the dole, its the system I'm talking about. As I say people who genuinely need I have no problem with but a guy in his teens or 20's shouldn't be able to sit on the dole out of choice and not even be asked to prove he's working or helped in anyway to get out to work.

    Erm... aren't you agreeing with exactly what I said?

    and thats the issue, the system is too easily exploited and doesn't offer enough outside of financial assistance to those who are unemployed.

    Well we're bascially saying the same thing, I think you just took me up wrong. My main point was that it needs reform not that people on the dole should have their money taken.

    No it didn't, he's 100 up on what he was before he left school, and he's been had chances to apply for work. Agreed, there will always be those too lazy to work but they shouldn't be allowed to sit back and still receive the same dole as someone whose contributed to the system and who is trying to get back to work.

    To be honest GB thats as bad in my book as a department with twice the people they need, from a management perspective. The money being paid to your missus is wasted because she cant be productive in those circumstances through no fault of her own.

    That said I've always subscribed to the 75/25 rule in terms of public service workers, that 75% are honest hardworking people and 25% are wasters but, after 12 years working with them my experience is the opposite.

    I manage accounts for a couple of governement departments, they generally have twice as many staff as their private sector counterparts and I've always found them to be the least innovative, work shy people to deal with you can imagine. Again this is mainly due to a complete lack of any sort of accountability. Last year I had a senior public servant, an 'IT Manager' for a large government department, ask me why they needed passwords on their apps, isn't a windows log in enough.... thats no joke!

    I'm also now volunteering with public sector workers in a program for troubled kids, the program is fine and the people that run it do their best but they're clueless in comparison to people you work with in the private sector, there's no management, no measurement and no traceability.
  4. Nov 16, 2010
    #44

    Eyepopper Lowering the tone since 2006

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    Oh, I'm not blaming them, the fact is whether people like it or not that those ultimately responsible for what happened wont shoulder a fair portion of the blame and punishment.

    IMO we have 2 options, we stick with the current political structure and the working man pays, in which scenario everyone is going to be hit. Or we overthrow the government, write a new constitution, tell the EU and the bond holders to feck themselves and get on with it ourselves.

    This idea that 'i didn't create the mess I dont see why I should have to pay' people are just going to have to get over, because we're ALL going to have to pay.

    I paid 20k tax last year, and peoples response is 'oooh you must be earning enough so'... well yes I am, because I've worked fecking hard all my life to get and education and build a career that I fecking hated so I could have some sort of life for myself... its no more fair that I should pay than someone on the dole.. we're ALL going to have to pay.

    Paying is one thing but if I'm going to be fecked in the arse for the rest of my life I'd like to see something done to the systems which gobble up public expenditure to make sure that the money they're screwing out of me isn't pissed up against a wall....
  5. Nov 16, 2010
    #45

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    So we're all communists now the bubble has burst. Convenient. If the same doleys stole money we wouldn't all chip in to do their time in mountjoy, but now we are asking them to tighten their belts because of some private bank fecking up in it's efforts to make billions?

    A fair portion would be feck all IMO as they got none of the billions that was there in prosperity.

    All the acculimation due to speculation wasn't shared but when the horse falls we all have to cover the bet.

    Individuals will always be able to break into the top tier, one or two to give those with ambition hope, but the bottom line is those who fecked this up still live in the biggest houses and will have a slightly less healthy bank balance but will see mimimal effect on their lives, we are protecting the status quo that got us into this mess, and on your point of ripping it up and starting again, I'm all for it personally. After the fact those on the dole wouldn't change all that much but thoise who would lose won't let it happen, because as it stands they act and live like Kings with impunity.

    Like I said, those at the top will be loving finger pointing at students and unmarrried mothers.
  6. Nov 16, 2010
    #46

    Mister Jeebus Full Member

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    My basic point was that you can't use anecdotes to say our entire welfare system is flawed. There's undoubtedly aspects of it that are exploited to the maximum by the unscrupulous but I don't think the basic rates are too much to be paying people, be they pensioners, single mothers, unemployed, whatever.

    I'd add summary executions for all Fianna Fáilers.

    Absolutely. Conflating cause and consequence is highly emotive but completely irrational. People forget the main reason we're where we are is the electorate.
  7. Nov 16, 2010
    #47

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    Seriously? As in how we vote or our acceptance of what goes on?
  8. Nov 16, 2010
    #48

    Eyepopper Lowering the tone since 2006

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    Thats where our choice comes in to either shut up and get on with it, or do something about it, that something would have to be just standing up as a nation and saying NO as far as I can see..

    Just to be clear I'm as much against whats happening as you are....

    I can easily say 'hold on, we're supposed to be living in a capitalist economy where the strong prosper and the weak die. I grew up on a council estate in 80's Ireland and worked my way out of it, now I'm gonna be lashed with a huge tax bill to cover those that weren't so lucky or didn't work so hard?'

    Not saying thats how I feel but I think its a similar argument to those saying they didn't profit from the celtic tiger and therefore shouldn't have to pay, if we're looking at a bill of 50billion then in comparison none of us profited and the lads that did are long gone. Welfare payments increased massively during that period, so thats a little disingenuous too.
  9. Nov 16, 2010
    #49

    Mister Jeebus Full Member

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    It's a truism to say you get the government you deserve, but Fianna Fáil have been in power for most of the history of this state bar about 25 years, and they didn't get into power until 1932. I've always bemoaned the fact that no matter how I've voted I can be certain that the majority of the electorate will place those gombeens in power. The electorate has to be more culpable than the people it elected.
  10. Nov 16, 2010
    #50

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    I agree to a point. You have to examine the power of goverment over the area of large scale finaciers, especially a government the size of ours. They are to a degree boxed in by lobbyists and interest groups. Would Fine Gael, even if they wanted to, have been able to do it any differntly.

    I think that to be burdened with the sacle of culability you are talking about then an option for the electorate has to be a systemic change, the most feasible one being the increase in the number of referenda. Personally I would go many many steps further, but be shot dead because of the consequences for those at the tip mof the finacial pyrimad and those parasites just below them.
  11. Nov 16, 2010
    #51

    Eyepopper Lowering the tone since 2006

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    The general Irish attitude towards and expectation of their politicians is woeful, all you have to do is look at the last election to see that. Even after all the tribunals, all the theiving and backhanders that everyone knew they were up to fianna fail got 44% of the public vote.

    Thats a fecking disgrace to the Irish Republic and the people who fought and died for it.

    Why did Fianna Fail get that percentage? Because everyone was doing ok, so we were happy enough... the 'I know they're gangsters, I know they're on the take but I'm alright Jack' attitude, and as dirty a word as Fianna Fail is now, 44% of us voted for them..
  12. Nov 16, 2010
    #52

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    Like Jeebus you talk as if there is an option. We have an entrenched system where we, and not just FF, have whored the nation out to interest groups, both adminsitrative and non (ie corporations and the EU), to the point no matter who is in Kildare St, they don't actually have complete control.

    As for the bold bit, I said that to you regarding the last shambolic EU re-vote and you played it down. That sovereignty issue is very valid here I think.

    (not being aggro I actually enjoy how wildy disparate our views on this always are)
  13. Nov 16, 2010
    #53

    Eyepopper Lowering the tone since 2006

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    How many nominations does someone need to stand for election in Ireland?


    That attitude is the problem... all this 'ones the same as the next' bollocks, we need people to stand up, or better still we need to shoot the lot of them and do what we know is right.

    But it wont happen, we'll do what we've always done, piss, moan and fight with each other, then when we're all done we'll pay the bill and let things go on as they are.

    Even more ironic, we'll do nothing while we watch the French refuse to accept it and say 'aren't the French right lads, thats what we should be doing, but shur they're all the same as each other we've no options'
  14. Nov 16, 2010
    #54

    Mister Jeebus Full Member

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    We need a new constitution but I doubt the electorate is sufficiently sophisticated to clamour for one. At the very least we need to eliminate the clientilist political system that is the source of so many of our ills. That will require a referendum, but we could at least introduce some form of list system, eliminate the requirement that all ministers must be selected from the Dáil (or 2 max from the Senate), require that all ministers if they are Dail deputies must resign their seat - we need a separation of legislative and executive. That's just for starters.
  15. Nov 16, 2010
    #55

    MikeUpNorth Wobbles like a massive pair of tits

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    Ireland set its corporation tax rates at ridiculously low values and it is paying the price. They got involved in a race to the bottom and, guess where they are now, at the bottom.

    By setting rates so low it encourages unsustainable businesses to set up and take all sorts of short term risks. If a business can't pay its way properly, it's not a business you want.
  16. Nov 16, 2010
    #56

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    I was involved in grass roots politics my whole life man, it's not easy for an individual and harder and harder the more centralised politics is. Step one is to get reponsibility broken up and distributed, both from Brussles and Kildare Street, then the people who do stand up, and they do, would not be pissing in the wind.
  17. Nov 16, 2010
    #57

    Mick1991 Full Member

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    I sense a communist revolution or a gig by U2, either way it won't end well.
  18. Nov 16, 2010
    #58

    moses control

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    Fully agree.
  19. Nov 16, 2010
    #59

    Eyepopper Lowering the tone since 2006

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    My point re Lisbon wasn't that the EU was the best thing since sliced bread, it was that we needed them... and I still take that position, I'm not sure which would be worse, the current situation or just being swallowed up by the EU.

    Depressing of course that we have to chose the best of 2 options, neither of which are loyal to anything but figures on spreadsheets.
  20. Nov 16, 2010
    #60

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    Only one of them options is to my liking.
  21. Nov 16, 2010
    #61

    moses control

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    Aye, but the thing about systems of government is that they can't be reactionary, otherwise this happens. You have to have a plan, an ethos, one that works from top to bottom and will not be destroyed for the benefit of the few and to do that you can't send decisions further and further from the people they effect IMO.
  22. Nov 16, 2010
    #62

    Eyepopper Lowering the tone since 2006

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    Which is why the Irish need to stand together, something that will never happen, even now we've workers fighting with welfare recepients, private sector fighting with public sector etc etc etc all trying to hold on to what they have no one seeing that whats actually wrong is the entire system they're all within.
  23. Nov 16, 2010
    #63

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    I'll have you under an anarchist flag with me outside the Daíl yet!

    edit - I don't mean have you
  24. Nov 16, 2010
    #64

    Mister Jeebus Full Member

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    I don't think that's the case Mike. The debt burden of the banks that the government are imposing on the state are almost exclusively from property developers. It's a problem of reckless lending and equally reckless borrowing, little or no regulation, billions in tax breaks for developers, and a catastrophically myopic view that this will be the one property bubble in history that won't burst. In terms of industrial productivity, for example, our exports are improving quite well, they're simply being swamped by the cost of nationalising billions in bank debt. Many viable businesses went to the wall because the freeze in credit availability, not because of corporation tax.
  25. Nov 16, 2010
    #65

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    Disgustingly, I think it is almost that simple.
  26. Nov 16, 2010
    #66

    iSparky Likes Dags. but not as much as his Dad

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    ironic that bono spends so much time helping 3rd world countries, ireland could do with bono now but he has probably fecked off somewhere into africa to feed his ego
  27. Nov 16, 2010
    #67

    Eyepopper Lowering the tone since 2006

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    :lol: damn...


    To be honest I've lost all faith in global economics and multinational corporations.. not that I had many to begin with but basically they, and the guys at the top of them are the modern day slave masters.

    They came to Ireland, welcomed by sticky fingered politicians and have set about turning the country from a nation of poets and scholars to a nation of clerks and administrators... a little misty eye'd but basically the truth.
  28. Nov 16, 2010
    #68

    lynchie Full Member

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    So has anyone had any free cheese so far?
  29. Nov 16, 2010
    #69

    Mister Jeebus Full Member

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    The irony is that he constantly preaches about how we should give more of our GDP to the third world yet he moved his business to the Netherlands for tax purposes.
  30. Nov 16, 2010
    #70

    moses control

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    Agreed Komrad
  31. Nov 16, 2010
    #71

    Mick1991 Full Member

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    Aye, when his artist tax break was outed in Ireland he fecked off to another haven to avoid paying tax because he's a wanker.
  32. Nov 16, 2010
    #72

    Mister Jeebus Full Member

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    The people's flag is deepest red,
    It shrouded oft our martyr'd dead
    And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold,
    Their hearts' blood dyed its ev'ry fold.
    Then raise the scarlet standard high,
    Within its shade we'll live and die,
    Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
    We'll keep the red flag flying here.

    Written by an Irishman of course. (There's your feckin historical link lads!)
  33. Nov 16, 2010
    #73

    Viper KGB Full Member

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    You know I’m bad. Just last week, I murdered a roc
    I still can't believe this, ridiculous.

    Wasn't it an EU initiative though?
  34. Nov 16, 2010
    #74

    Mister Jeebus Full Member

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    Yep, and they've been doing it for years. The cheese is given to charities to redistribute to needy families. The difference this year is the government thought shouting it from the rooftops would give them some positive press for once. Shows how utterly disconnected from reality they are.
  35. Nov 16, 2010
    #75

    MikeUpNorth Wobbles like a massive pair of tits

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    Banks are corporations too, and the most important ones at that.
  36. Nov 16, 2010
    #76

    Mister Jeebus Full Member

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    Obviously. I've yet to see any evidence that the low corporation tax fuelled reckless lending by the banks though.
  37. Nov 16, 2010
    #77

    Viper KGB Full Member

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    You know I’m bad. Just last week, I murdered a roc
    :lol: such idiots
  38. Nov 16, 2010
    #78

    golden_blunder mijn naam is Golden Blunder en ik hou team LVG

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    Fixed
  39. Nov 16, 2010
    #79

    Name Changed weso26

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    Easy.

    The amount of money that some people scam off the state (I'm not saying single mothers) is ridiculous.

    Often on the way to work I see the junkees queuing up for their "foy". Most of them drive to the clinic, and nearly all of those driving are in 07 or 08 cars, better cars than me anyway and I work my hole off. So they get all their drugs for free, they get their rent paid for, the get medical aid because they are junkees, and to top it all off they get the dole. Plus they also get a disability allowance because 1) they are junkees and 2) a lot claim to have adhd. It's absolutely ridiculous.

    There are plenty of people in society who are at it. I used to get the boat across from Dublin when going to some of the United games. Each time, I would see the same group of people on the boat going back and forth. They weren't going for the football, they were claiming the dole in both countries.

    Also, some foreign people (not naming any particular nationalities although there is one in particular) will have numerous different id's and subsequently claim dole, housing allowance, child allowance etc for all.

    When you see people who are allegedly on the dole driving things like 09 Lexus' etc or own lovely house in the likes of Lucan and Palmerstown, it makes me sick to the stomach.

    Personally, if I left work and went on the dole, I would easily come out with more money into my hand as I do now.

    Rant over.
  40. Nov 16, 2010
    #80

    712 Formerly '711' but that was a ridiculous username!

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    Ireland and others couldn't set their own interest rates, true, but if they had wanted to reduce growth they could have increased taxes. Unfortunately the American and British right have made tax such a dirty word that it's been removed from the economic armoury.

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