Being consumed by Ideologies

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by King7Eric, Feb 22, 2018.

  1. Feb 22, 2018
    #1

    King7Eric Full Member

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    There is one thing I think most of the fans in this forum and in general need to recognize. I think this everytime after Jose gets criticized for the kind of performance we put in yesterday or even at the weekend against Huddersfield for that matter. The average fan may not have been pleased by the performance, but Jose was, so criticizing him is futile. Even if he reads whatever the media says or what the average fan says, it'll never resonate with him because according to his ideology last night was perfect.

    We came away without conceding away from goal, for the most part were defensively solid, yes DDG had to make a couple of great saves, but then that's why he is there. So many times Jose has talked in press conferences about how he likes to be "humble" when approaching big games, because that's the way he sees the game. He expects the other team to dominate and be better coached in an offensive style, because that's not his strength. His strength is his defensive nous and people can whine all they want about how our GK saves us and our defense is shit but the fact is we don't often concede many goals. I often get the impression watching our defending that we are quite happy to let the opposing attacker have a shot at goal as long as he can only strike it at a single angle, because we back DDG to able to save it (Example Muriel's header last night, there was not enough time for him to be able to place it wherever he pleased). The job of the defense is to prevent an attacker from having multiple options when in front of goal, its only when they fail to do that has there been an error ( example the goal we conceded against Newcastle).

    Jose has built his career on the back of being nigh invincible at home and he's not gonna change that. People were having a go at McTominay for playing too safe, well that's what he is there to do. Away from home Jose is never gonna ask someone like McTominay to even try to do anything expansive. Jose likes him so much because he's the perfect player for him in such situations.

    The problem is fans expect us to play a certain way because they feel we are the superior team. Jose doesn't see it that way, especially not in an away CL knockout match. He will always analyse the strengths of the opposition and our weakness and try to counter those rather than doing things the other way around. You may not like it but that's the way he is.

    We need to keep our ideological bias to the side when we are analyzing our performances. Personally I don't like Jose's philosophy, but I never criticize it whenever we have a supposedly "bad " performance because its futile. His ideology is what it is and in games like Liverpool away or last night they worked perfectly. Whether his ideology is the ideal match for this club is a different matter, but as long as he's here we need to stop bringing in our own ideological bias while judging our performances, otherwise you're just making an exercise in futility.
  2. Feb 22, 2018
    #2

    eat_grass Full Member

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    You make a lot of sense in your OP, but ultimately your conclusion is wrong because you don't understand Mourinho at all (as evidenced by that statement above). Mourinho didn't think "last night was perfect." He wants to dominate games. There is so much misunderstanding from fans when it comes to his supposed philosophy, and I think it stems from fans reading sh*t articles from the media. The media paint a caricature of him because it serves their financial needs -- they don't care about painting an accurate picture.

    The thing Mourinho cares most about in football is control. That doesn't necessarily mean ball possession. It means reducing the opposition's chances of success using whichever means possible: strong defensive organization, eliminating the things your opponent thrives at and prefers to do, slicing a team apart on counter-attacks to put fear in their hearts, etc. Mourinho would have loved to win last night, but he won't risk allowing the opposition to gain a foothold in the series (confidence, etc.) to do it, knowing a home win puts United through to the QF. Liverpool were happy drawing 3-3 because scoring lots of goals and conceding lots of goals suits their mentality. Mourinho was satisfied drawing 0-0.

    Mourinho's philosophy is all about risk management: lower your opponent's chances of success without exposing yourself to unnecessary risk of failure. It's that simple. It's pragmatism.

    Mourinho only praised one player last night (unprompted): McTominay.
  3. Feb 22, 2018
    #3

    King7Eric Full Member

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    I think you are pretty much saying what I said. Maybe he didn't think last night was "perfect" but I'm pretty sure he was quite satisfied with how last night went. As you say being in control doesn't mean having lots of the ball or loads of chances to score and I thought he would have considered yesterday's performance as decent in that regard.
  4. Feb 22, 2018
    #4

    Denis79 Full Member

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    Don't think he was happy with yesterday, the result yes but not the play. He wants control over everything else, we didn't control last night.
  5. Feb 22, 2018
    #5

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

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    For all the money we spent and with our stature in World Football it is a shame that we went away to Sevilla only looking for a 0-0 draw. I really do not think someone say Bayern would be looking for a 0-0 draw in that situation. And we were not even good enough defensively to justify our tactics for the match.
  6. Feb 22, 2018
    #6

    King7Eric Full Member

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    Well this is the point of the thread. For you and me maybe our approach was shameful, but for Jose it wasn't. He prefers this approach, so no matter how much fans and pundits may moan about it, it'll never register with him because for him this approach is the best way to go about it in big matches.
  7. Feb 22, 2018
    #7

    norm87cro New Member

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    I think we're going to ship out more players im the next transfer window than sign. I just don't see Jose trusting the majority of this Squad. That's why we saw some shitty approaches to games. That Being said he's not the type od manager to go for it. Even in his first spell at Chelsea where the team at his disposal was much better than this United team
  8. Feb 22, 2018
    #8

    AndyJ1985 Full Member Verified Moaner

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    Bollocks to ideologies, I want to be entertained. Watching United isn't entertaining, it's turning in to a chore just as it did when van Gaal was manager.
  9. Feb 22, 2018
    #9

    eat_grass Full Member

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    Based on his post-match press conference, I don't think he was satisfied by the performance.

    My thoughts exactly.
  10. Feb 22, 2018
    #10

    King7Eric Full Member

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    We no longer have a manager who considers entertaining fans as his primary priority, as SAF did. Jose's only priority is getting the players to follow exactly what he wants and getting results, no matter how much of a chore it turns into. While this may be enough for some fans, I don't think it'll be enough for all.
  11. Feb 22, 2018
    #11

    ValenciaRocks New Member

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    @King7Eric - "His ideology is what it is and in games like Liverpool away or last night they worked perfectly."

    Really? You do know that Liverpool had the worst defence in the league at that point in time and we were scoring for fun. That Liverpool game killed our season - it was all negative football from that game onwards. Tottenham played Liverpool about a week later and beat them 4-1.

    If by the end of next season we are playing negative defensive football then we should do everything to get Pochettino in. I just feel Mourinho doesn’t know how to utilise our attacking players very well at all.
  12. Feb 22, 2018
    #12

    septic Full Member

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    we knew what we were getting when we signed Jose. he has always been pragmatic. we didn't care because if it meant winning, then we would sacrifice entertainment, especially during the dark days of Moyes and LVG.
  13. Feb 22, 2018
    #13

    Janson Full Member

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    Even if the approach is similar, sitting back in tough away games. At Chelsea he had players who were deadly on the counter. That's the difference.
  14. Feb 22, 2018
    #14

    bosnian_red Worst scout to ever exist

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    There would be a lot less criticism if we were actually building to be a defensively sound team, a team that can shut teams out like classic Italian teams and generally teams like Mourinhos old teams that can shut games down. There would still be complaints about play style, but that different. The complaints are because we are neither attacking nor defensive. When we try to sit back, we concede chance after chance, we let opposition runners break through the middle so easily, we lack organization, and we have to rely on de gea to save us far too often. He's amazing, but that's not a tactic. Or at least it's a sign that the tactic is failing. Being solid defensively is not letting the opposition have any chances and limiting them to random low percentage shots. We don't do that. There is very little different between the way we defend and the chances we give up compared to teams like Liverpool who we laugh at. The main difference and the significant one is we have De Gea in net, while their goalkeepers make more mistakes then their defence.
  15. Feb 23, 2018
    #15

    Denis79 Full Member

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    It's even worse when you can't put a finger on it. We've seen Mourinho set us up with the intention to attack and our players create nothing, if it's the coaching, training, manger, players I'm still not sure. Lately I got the feeling that the players are lacking in fight not skill. I seldom see them fired up, hungry for that win, giving 100% chasing for that goal. City acted like proper cnuts after the loss to Wigan but atleast their fans saw that "hunger to win" after the game. Motivated hungry players are usually frustrated after a loss and most certainly during the game if they are losing.
    We seldom see that in our players, it looks more like they give up when it gets tough.
  16. Feb 23, 2018
    #16

    MikeKing Full Member

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    Good post. I hope its not a overdone focus-point inside the club, like a "club-ideology" to just be a classy fellah on the pitch and to be a good example. We need a bit of hunger and fight from the players. Some games like against Newcastle we don't really start pushing for the goal before the time is up. It's silly, just put the pressure on immediately after we've conceded. That risk used to work for Ferguson, used to put fear into teams actually.
  17. Feb 23, 2018
    #17

    RedDevilCanuck Quite dreamy - blue eyes, blond hair, tanned skin

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    I'm all for parking the bus to get good results. Problem is in big games this season we have not for good results.

    Jose historically has been great in these games so I've been disappointed this season. We even seem to get outplayed by mid and lower table teams.
  18. Feb 23, 2018
    #18

    Turkleton Full Member

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    I agree. It's got to the point where I'm ready to stop making an effort to watch matches. There are more enjoyable ways to spend my time.
  19. Feb 23, 2018
    #19

    Velvet Revolver Full Member

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    I feel Jose is caught in two minds. On the one hand, there is his trusted pragmatic approach (call it conservative, safe, defensive etc) and then there is this manchester united approach which is to dominate teams with waves of attack until the 90th+ min.

    All the other teams he has managed he was able to make it a Jose team, but with United, it just doesn't feel like it. It is his teams only based on the transfers, everything else doesn't have the stamp of a Jose team which is solid defensive setup, big strong midfielders and a smart attacking unit which is a counter-attacking machine.

    so no matter what his ideologies are they are not being implemented, so far at least.
  20. Feb 23, 2018
    #20

    el3mel Full Member

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    I don't know if he has been happy with performance against Seville or not. If we had defended well and prevented most of their attacks leading to aimless possession for them it could have been better. Problem is we were so open in the back and depended on Dave a lot. This isn't something I wait to see from a Mourinho team. Those last couple of matches aren't things I will see from a team managed by Mourinho, terrible defending and unbalanced formations. He surely can't be happy with that but sure he can be content with the result.

    I said previously said Mourinho is one of those managers that doesn't give a feck what media and fans say about him. He can park the bus with 10 players and defend deep, getting slaughtered by everyone but he will still be content if that was his plan from the start and it got executed as he wanted, while everyone can moan as they want. However, we weren't good at all in defending part which is worrying. He can't be content with the way we defended in this match.
  21. Feb 23, 2018
    #21

    Theonas Full Member Scout

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    I am not sure about that at all. I don't see any other manager as consumed and obsessed about defending himself against the defensive tag as he is. The constant references to football "Einsteins" and "poets", the amount of times he references style and how it's not a crime to be good defensively among other examples suggests he really feels like he needs to defend himself. There were also many stories about how he feels underappreciated compared to other managers which especially came up after Conte won the league last and he wouldn't stop talking about how Chelsea played a counter attacking game just like him. I think all managers like all humans being want to be loved and respected to be fair, it's really silly to suggest that any of them don't care. In his case, because his football has always been hard to love compared to the likes of Guardiola, he has been feeling especially annoyed about how how he is perceived. The issue for him is that what he is good at and what he excels at is just something the majority in the footballing community admire more than swoon over.

    The last part about how content he was, I agree with you. His ideal performance would require a higher level of defensive solidity. The problem again is this just doesn't exist anymore. The days of the towering defensive solidity of his Chelsea or Inter are gone. Atlético Madrid and Juventus had a good run and they enjoyed some success with deep traditional defenses but they were the exception among a sea of high line playing teams that aim to control possession and concentrate more on not having to defend, than not working on actual defending. Even a team like Juventus, suffered against Spurs last week and defended in a way that would be called among fans shocking. You look around and it simply looks like playing like that is just unrealistic. Attackers are faster, teams work more on their attacking fluidity and movement, academies are not producing specialist defenders like before and refs are stricter and favor forwards more and more. Those are just few of the reasons why the things Mourinho always excelled at are getting harder and harder to implement.
  22. Feb 23, 2018
    #22

    el3mel Full Member

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    If he got affected by him getting criticized heavily by everyone for his approach, he would have stopped or changed it long years ago. It's the opposite takes slight digs at anyone that criticizes, but he will never change his approach or tactical decisions and will always does what he believes will bring him results even if it was in the ugliest ways possible, so he's really not someone that the media or fans criticism can change or affect how he approaches his games. He'll still do what he sees being right.

    I'm not actually worried about our offensive shape but more about our defensive organization. We're struggling offensively because of his failure in integrating Sanchez in the team, as he chose the worst possible solution by playing him on the left instead of Martial. This will get solved sooner or later IMO. However, how out of sudden we reverted back to depend on Davis to save our arse is very worrying. You can say what you want about Mourinho's attacking game plan but his side's have never been as fragile as we saw these previous games. During last season and early in this one we looked like a Mourinho team, solid at the back, defend well, quick transitions ( mixed with a terrible decision making a little bit ) and many goals that everyone think they are flukes or against the tide ( that has always been said about Mourinho's teams). However, since Spurs game we look shadow of this team. Terribly defending, over dependent on David, unbalanced formations, players out of their position, very slow transition. Can't believe Mourinho is content with that form, even if he's not angry much about results. We have been pretty poor since Spurs game and Mourinho shares a good amount of blame for this, most of it actually. I'm a big fan of him, but something has gone wrong and we need quick solutions before the next crucial period.
  23. Feb 23, 2018
    #23

    King7Eric Full Member

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    Mate I'm not saying that I like his approach or myself think it works perfectly. I'm just saying the reason he doesn't change it because in his mind it works fine. When he was manager at Inter, the 2nd leg against Barca everyone lauded his genius defensive planning, yet people forget Pique had scored in the last minute and was ruled offside and it was marginal. Had that goal stood ( and it may well have) that "perfect" performance would no longer be labeled as such. Similarly against Sevilla if Lukaku instead of controlling the ball with his hand, controls it with his chest and puts it in the net, we nick it and again the performance takes the form of a great away performance. It's these little things that make a huge difference.

    I never once said I like this approach, I don't, but Jose will not refrain from using it because in his mind it gets results( we got the 0-0 he wanted) so it's futile going into matches expecting anything else from him tactically.
  24. Feb 23, 2018
    #24

    Theonas Full Member Scout

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    Because changing is not easy? Some might argue it's actually impossible. Managers who adopt a more pro active approach have been working on that and developing towards that vision since they started coaching. How many managers do you know can change their tactical orientations in the middle of their career? Guardiola cannot change his approach and neither can Klopp or Pochettino and the same goes for Mourinho. They do what they do because they believe in it one way or another and they excel at it because they work on it obsessively throughout their careers. That's what Mourinho can do, he can't coach any other way and to him, why should he. His problem is that the rest of the footballing community feels cold towards the kind of teams his coaching produces.
    I am really not sure about this point. The main reason being is I don't see anyone defend the way you and some others are talking about efficiently. 10 years ago, Chelsea could do that and us to a lesser extent with Vidic and Rio but we have to take opponents into consideration there. Almost everyone accepted back then that big games are cagey affairs where you weight out your opponent and wait for the sucker punch. It was how most have played at home and in Europe with Italian teams being more dominant and playing themselves more of a reactive and/or slow game. This has meant the likes of Mourinho and Rafa Benitez were not as tested defensively as they would have been today. They could set up to absorb and it worked better because more often than not, the other team was sitting back as well or at least not taking too many chances. John Terry was on MNF this season I think and when asked about the current City side and how his defense would have dealt with them, he plainly mentioned how refs are different now and how the players and general attacking moves today are quicker which led him to be unsure if they could be as efficient as they were 10 years ago.

    It is this change in dynamic and profile of teams, not necessarily their overall quality, that makes me think what we are seeing from our defense is as good as it gets in the modern climate. Sitting as deep as we do and absorbing pressure is no longer as secure as it was even if you have the best specialist in that area in Mourinho. When you look at a defence of the caliber of Juventus with proper war horses like Chiellini and Barzagli and see how they struggled playing that way, what chance does anyone else have?
  25. Feb 23, 2018
    #25

    overrated 92's Banned

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    This place will go into meltdown when Poch says ''Thanks but No Thanks'' to us
  26. Feb 23, 2018
    #26

    RedDevil@84 Full Member

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    We lost the balance when we lost Pogba before the Pool match. I think this was the first match after we lost Pogba and the team did not have the same chemistry. Ander was coming into the team after long and was really rusty. Add to it Mkhi was being Mkhi. The team that was put out was not horrific.
    Lingard was not playing like Messi at that time. Shaw was not really ready yet. The only odd thing was putting Young on the right in a 4-2-3-1.

    So overall I see Pool match as an outlier. I don't think Jose really set up the team to not create any chances. It just ended up that players actually did nothing.
    I am not saying Jose had a perfect approach in every match. But I don't think Pool or Huddersfield were examples of manager's shortcomings.
  27. Feb 23, 2018
    #27

    el3mel Full Member

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    Difference between Pep and Jose that Pep has specific system and specific way of play that he always adapts no matter what, Mourinho not really. Mourinho plays what he thinks will bring him the win, and this type of managers can adapt better if they're willing to. I consider SAF from this kind of managers and thus when he wants to adapt to the modern football he was able to do it with ease. Mourinho doesn't to change his view of football. He takes slight digs to anyone who talks about it, but he still does what he thinks best for the team even if it means he'll get slaughtered.

    I don't think Mourinho tends to go fully defensive without any sorts of attacks in big games. He wants his team to defend well but at the same time has quick transitions whenever they get the ball to utilize space. Till his last title winning season he was playing that way. The problem is we seem to not do that. Our transition is too slow, and our passing is very sloppy. Even when we do the quick transition our decision making is terrible. I don't imagine any manager telling his team to just sit deep and soak the pressure without trying to go on attacks.
  28. Feb 23, 2018
    #28

    Hugh Jass Full Member

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    When we go up against an average enough team away from home, Mourinhos philosophy struggles, although Sevilla are better than a lot of people were saying they were. You really see the positives of Mourinhos philosophy when you are away from home against a good side.
  29. Feb 23, 2018
    #29

    Devil may care Full Member Verified Moaner

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    Exactly, I don't give a flying feck what our outdated bore of a manager wants, the sooner he goes the better IMO, time we got someone in that wants us to be Manchester United, not Tony Pulis with a big budget.
  30. Feb 23, 2018
    #30

    desmondisback Banned

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    Why Oh Why Oh Why Oh Why do people keep equating "pragmatism" with being negative and defensive. A 3-3 draw is a far better result away in Seville than 0-0. You can make an argument that it's pragmatic to go for the draw and not take too many risks , but you can also make an equal argument that it's pragmatic to take a few more risks and try and get an away goal. In a tight CL tie away goals often have a big say - and we haven't got one - so why is a 0-0 draw a "pragmatic" result?

    Maybe Sevilla will be more expansive away at OT and hope to get an away goal. Will we say they are being reckless or "pragmatic"?

    Pragmatic - 2 definitions -

    "dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations."

    "solving problems in a sensible way that suits the conditions that really exist now, rather than obeying fixed theories, ideas, or rules "

    There's nothing in these definitions about negativity or positivity. Pragmatism is about what works no matter what. I personally think our approach in Seville was not pragmatic because it was worth the risk of conceding to try and score and get the away goal. Who knows , we might have won! Now we have to face the fact that a 1-1 draw means we are going out.

    I also think it's not pragmatic because in order to do anything in a cup competition like this you have to be brave. If we play a big big team then we might have to try and get an away goal because we know that the likes of Bayern are well capable of scoring at OT. Cup competitions are about throwing your dice into the ring. Why? Because the odds are always against you. The chances are that we won't win the bloody thing anyway so why not have a bit of a go and see what happens? I don't think we can win it by playing how we did V Sevilla so we might as well try and up our game now. What are we afraid of? Many ties are won or lost depending on how the away team plays and 0-0 isn't considered a great result these days.

    All I'm saying is that there's an equal argument that being more adventurous the other night might also have been a "pragmatic" approach. We have to get out of this idea that defensive = pragmatic by default. It does not.

    Let's expand our thinking on this!

    (and by the way - entertaining = ineffective is also a mistake)
  31. Feb 24, 2018
    #31

    eat_grass Full Member

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    I don't know and I don't think I did that, but I also don't know why some fans equate being defensive with being negative. ;)

    Parking the bus and not attempting to score, that is negative. Setting out to play solid defense and nullify your opponent's dangerous offense, that is not negative.

    What we saw against Sevilla was not parking the bus. It was an attempt to prioritize good defense and strike on offense when United were in possession. But the game didn't play out that way. It was an okay defensive performance (thank you Dave!) and a very poor offensive performance. But with an okay/decent result.

    Agreed that 3-3 away is far better than 0-0. But at no point in the match did United look capable of scoring two, let alone three. I don't think Mourinho told his players to play poorly on offense and not attempt to score, but once he saw that was how the offense was playing, he opted for solidifying the defense rather than throwing caution to the wind (like Liverpool do) and risking a loss (like Liverpool do).

    The difference is they now have to score to progress (or win a penalty shootout). Don't lose sight of the fact United didn't need to win, and didn't need to score, in order to set up a favorable position in the second leg. I think that's the mentality Mourinho took into that match.

    Not in the first leg on the road, IMO. You take that mindset into the second leg at home when the first leg ended 0-0. That's where you throw your dice.

    I feel confident saying Mourinho would love to win every match 3-0 or 4-0 and playing dominating, offensive football. But that's not what this squad is capable of, so he plays to their strengths: solid defense, and hope for moments of offensive brilliance from the players that get paid to produce those moments.
  32. Feb 25, 2018
    #32

    desmondisback Banned

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    Defence isn't negative but there's always a pay off between negativity and risk. It's really all about the mentality around risk. The more defensive you are the less likely you are to concede but also less likely to score. I hardly need to tell you this though.



    The issue of being positively pragmatic is that you work out the best way to play the percentages. Look at the stats below. Obviously 0-0 away is still a good result giving a 67% chance of going through. However , it could so easily have been a 1-0 defeat which would really have put us on the back foot at 39%. What's interesting is the stats for a 2-1 defeat and 3-2 defeat , both of which would have given us a better than 50-50 chance of going through.

    I haven't done the maths fully but I think what these stats show is that teams that are prepared to risk a potential defeat or conceding a goal in the first leg away are probably more likely to progress. Why? Because if you get an away goal (or even 2) you might easily lose but still have a half decent chance of progressing. You could even win the game which would dramatically increase your chances.

    Because the two legged system in Europe is weighted to favour goals away from home then it makes sense to take a bit of a risk to score even though it might mean you concede. Statistically the away goal can swing a tie so much so that even a 3-2 defeat isn't massively worse than a 0-0 by 11% only.

    A pragmatic approach would be to play the odds. Poker players do this. They know they can lose hands as well as win them but they will play the odds. Mourinho could easily have left Seville with a 0-1 result bar a save from De Gea. You can say 0-0 is a good result (which it is) but play that same match 100 times and you will get a whole range of results. Pragmatism and maths show us that it's a decent idea to throw some of your dice into the ring in the away leg because the stats will tend to favour you. Yes , we could have lost if we had taken more risks but that would be worth trying because even a 2-1 defeat is Ok. However , we might have got a 1-1 or even a 1-0 win , in which case it's almost tie over.

    You say that Sevilla have to score to progress , but so do we , and we might have to do it twice. Now we have to play at home and attack knowing that an away goal could kill us. It's also risky because we could play extra time on our own ground if it's 0-0. How confident are you that we can go 90 mins plus another 30mins without conceding to them? In any case , if we progress and play another team , whoever we play will most likely be more adventurous at OT than we will be at their ground. They will have understood the odds better.

    Pragmatism = defensive or negative. I just want to blow this idea out of the water. The fact is that pragmatism could mean going with any tactic at any time depending on the realities of the situation.

    If you take an emotional view playing for a 0-0 away "feels" like the pragmatic approach because it's human nature to equate negativity and caution with pragmatism. However , if you look at the facts only in the cold light of day , playing for the chance of a win or a 1-1 draw is actually more pragmatic , even if that "feels" wrong.

    I rest my case.


    See below for an updated table based on all European Cup matches of the last 30 years (from 1979 until 2008). Only two-leg results in qualifying and knock-out rounds are used. The total number of matches is 4532. Only results based on a minimum of 10 matches are shown.

    The table shows:
    a. 1st leg result (home team vs. away team)
    b. number of times that the home team advances
    c. number of times that the away team advances
    d. total number of matches with the same 1st leg result
    e. chance for home team to advance
    c. chance for away team to advance
    7-0 13- 0 ( 13) 100% / 0%
    6-1 21- 0 ( 21) 100% / 0%
    6-0 28- 0 ( 28) 100% / 0%
    5-0 67- 0 ( 67) 100% / 0%
    4-0 113- 0 (113) 100% / 0%
    5-1 40- 1 ( 41) 98% / 2%
    3-0 236- 20 (256) 92% / 8%
    4-1 72- 8 ( 80) 90% / 10%
    5-2 12- 2 ( 14) 86% / 14%
    2-0 339- 74 (413) 82% / 18%
    3-1 163- 43 (206) 79% / 21%
    4-2 25- 9 ( 34) 74% / 26%
    1-0 352-227 (579) 61% / 39%
    4-3 5- 5 ( 10) 50% / 50%
    2-1 154-159 (313) 49% / 51%
    3-2 45- 57 (102) 44% / 56%
    0-0 141-288 (429) 33% / 67%
    3-3 5- 14 ( 19) 26% / 74%
    1-1 108-316 (424) 25% / 75%
    2-2 29-121 (150) 19% / 81%
    0-1 38-317 (355) 11% / 89%
    1-2 12-177 (189) 6% / 94%
    2-4 1- 20 ( 21) 5% / 95%
    2-3 2- 59 ( 61) 3% / 97%
    1-3 2- 97 ( 99) 2% / 98%
    0-2 3-181 (184) 2% / 98%
    0-3 0- 97 ( 97) 0% / 100%
    1-4 0- 45 ( 45) 0% / 100%
    0-5 0- 36 ( 36) 0% / 100%
    0-4 0- 35 ( 35) 0% / 100%
    1-5 0- 17 ( 17) 0% / 100%
    0-6 0- 10 ( 10) 0% / 100%

    http://kassiesa.net/uefa/forum/view.php?archive=2008.Q3&topic=20080919192651.xml
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  33. Feb 26, 2018
    #33

    desmondisback Banned

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    Not in my opinion. This squad could be capable of a lot more with different tactics.
  34. Feb 26, 2018
    #34

    mav_9me Full Member

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    Spot on.

    I can understand the arguments against his defensive style, but for me the bigger problem is we have not been good at it.

    Take the game against Spurs or Sevilla. Spurs dominated us and won so very comfortably. Sevilla had chance after chance.

    I would love for us to be like SAF away in Europe, where we were so often boring but defensively so strong. I actually think if we were actually defensively strong like how Mourinho would want us to be, we would be much better on the counter with Pogba/Lukaku/Martial/Rashford and their pace.
  35. Feb 26, 2018
    #35

    desmondisback Banned

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    This is a good point. Mourinho potentially fails on two counts . a) not really pragmatic (only pseudo pragmatic) b) not even defending properly and closing teams down.

    You are both right. We ain't nearly as good at it as we seem to think we are.
  36. Feb 27, 2018
    #36

    eat_grass Full Member

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    The sports adage is: offense wins games, defense wins Championships. In a knockout competition, not conceding is the most likely path to progression. There's nothing harder in modern football than to score a goal. And it's a lot easier to not make defensive mistakes than it is to do the hardest think in modern football.

    The numbers above show a 67% chance of progression if the score ends 0-0, and you're taking that as a negative? The strain of thought that thinks it's better to lose (or risk losing) than it is to draw 0-0 is mind-boggling.

    But he didn't. And his track record in knockout competitions supports his case. I keep hearing fans complain about how scared they are by the result. You know who isn't scared? Mourinho.
  37. Feb 27, 2018
    #37

    eat_grass Full Member

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    Based on what? Mourinho's fielded offense-heavy lineups not too long ago and the team failed to produce, and fans and the media complained about "no balance."

    Don't tell me you're one of those "If Pep were managing United, he'd be 15 points ahead" posters. It's easily one of the dumbest arguments I've read around here.
  38. Feb 27, 2018
    #38

    desmondisback Banned

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    Based on logic and experience of watching football. We all know that a change of manager can in many cases transform a team. It's not just about tactical formations , it's also about mentality and the personality of the manager.

    None of us know what would happen if Pep came in or SAF did a stint or someone else but my guess is that we would probably look significantly better in attack and it would be different. Therefore it's logical to say that we just don't know what this squad is capable of under a more attack minded manager. I think there are many aspects of our team that are under performing from an attacking perspective.

    Bear in mind that formations are only part of it. Teams need to have an attacking mentality and different ideas around taking risks in a match. It's more of a mental thing in my opinion. So I don't think we'd be 15 points clear if Pep was here. I think if Jose and Pep were swapped over we'd be maybe 3-5 points off the lead with a shot at the title. It would be much closer.
  39. Feb 28, 2018
    #39

    eat_grass Full Member

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    A new manager and new system would of course make the team look different, but it's a leap of faith to conclude it would be more explosive offensively. It's not like Mourinho is telling the attacking players to not attack. They try to, and try nifty little passes at times, but the results just aren't there most of the time.

    I know it's boring listening to managers of other teams talk in post-match press conferences, but people really should try it so they learn what other, "more attacking" managers actually say about their teams' performances. You'll be surprised how often they bemoan their team's lack of balance (Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool -- hell, even Guardiola has done it this year).

    Some people blame it on Mourinho's system, or his primary focus on defensive stability. But if you read what he has said about his offensive philosophy, and compare it to what Thiery Henry said about Guardiola's, you'll see there's not much difference. In the final third, both managers let the players dictate play and improvise. Guardiola is more strict about player positioning because it's how his team moves the ball up the pitch, but it's not like Guardiola taught Aguero and Sterling how to score goals, or pulled them aside and said, "You know, I think passing the ball around the defender might work better than going through him. Let's try that."

    I think the proof is in Mourinho's title winning teams: they all scored boatloads of goals.
  40. Feb 28, 2018
    #40

    CA_vampire Full Member

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    In this post you are simply trying to criticize Jose, nothing else. But you fail miserably. It seems to me that you don't understand football.

    Every manager wants to dominate and win every game 5-0. Every manager, including Jose. Is this realistic? Of course not! To have a realistic possibility of winning trophies, you have to consider what players you have, and how well can they play. The system (or philosophy, or plan) means very little if the players are not up to par. On the other hand, great players can destroy any system. Not because they follow a better system, but because they can beat the player they have in front of them.

    You also fail to understand that psychology is important. The manager can not say whatever comes to his mind. Especially in public. We just beat Chelsea, a good team that drew Barca away a few days ago. It would be moronic for any manager to come out and say "well, I am not happy, we only won 2-1". Thinking about it, it is moronic when fans say it, too...