British soldier to face charges over Bloody Sunday killings.

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by sullydnl, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. Mar 14, 2019
    #1

    sullydnl Ross Kemp's caf ID

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2012
    Messages:
    18,026
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...r-to-face-charges-over-bloody-sunday-killings

    Deserves its own thread really given any conviction (or failure to convict) would be a significant day in NI history.

    Of course it goes without saying that there is quite some outrage at only one soldier being prosecuted.
  2. Mar 14, 2019
    #2

    TheCorkman Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    880
    It's just disgusting. Simple as that.

    How is it being received in the British press and public? Or is it even making the news?
  3. Mar 14, 2019
    #3

    SteveJ all-round nice guy, aka Uncle Joe Kardashian Scout

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    55,626
    Location:
    The Land of Twits
    Williamson needs sacking.
  4. Mar 15, 2019
    #4

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2014
    Messages:
    33,478
    Location:
    Birmingham
    It's ridiculous. He was carrying out orders. They one who have the order should be dragged through the courts.
  5. Mar 15, 2019
    #5

    Sweet Square Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2013
    Messages:
    8,194
    Location:
    Ruler Of The Supermarket
    :houllier:

    He literally shot unarmed people.
  6. Mar 15, 2019
    #6

    Kentonio Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2013
    Messages:
    9,543
    Location:
    Stamford Bridge
    This. A million times this. It was a disgusting statement to put out, and he should be held accountable.
  7. Mar 15, 2019
    #7

    Kentonio Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2013
    Messages:
    9,543
    Location:
    Stamford Bridge
    You know they tried that defence at Nuremburg right?
  8. Mar 15, 2019
    #8

    An Irish Red Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2009
    Messages:
    6,181
    Location:
    Ros Earcáin/Tuaim/an Baile Meánach
    He murdered multiple civilians.
  9. Mar 15, 2019
    #9

    stevoc Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    9,565
    Location:
    And Solskjær has won it!
    To be fair following orders is not a legitimate defence to murdering unarmed civilians mate.

    Also bear in mind this wasn't just a one off situation that got out of hand and the soldiers didn't have time to think about what they were taking part in. The same regiment murdered civilians in Belfast just a few months before. They knew full well what they were doing.
  10. Mar 15, 2019
    #10

    Halftrack Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,353
    Location:
    Chair
    The law trumps orders. Gunning down unarmed civilians is illegal, and an order to do so is unlawful and a soldier is under no obligation to follow it. They are in fact obligated to report the officer who gave it. Should they instead choose carry out said order, that's on them. Claiming they were just following orders is not a legitimate defense, nor should it be.
  11. Mar 15, 2019
    #11

    Andrew~ Squiggle

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    4,969
    This is never, ever, a defense in law. I'm currently a serving soldier so I totally understand the desire to protect soldiers but quite frankly, if the precedent is ever set that we can allow soliders to shoot and kill civilians on British soil without even a charge brought against them, we would be living in a very dangerous place.
  12. Mar 15, 2019
    #12

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2014
    Messages:
    33,478
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Tbh, I'm not too aware of the case but aren't soldiers immune from prosecution during times of conflict, when under orders?
  13. Mar 15, 2019
    #13

    Andrew~ Squiggle

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    4,969
    Definitely not.
  14. Mar 15, 2019
    #14

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2014
    Messages:
    33,478
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Thanks. So why is this case just coming to the court?
  15. Mar 15, 2019
    #15

    Rado_N Yaaas Broncos!

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    Messages:
    91,285
    Location:
    Manchester
    If you're not aware of the case maybe hold off on declaring the situation ridiculous.

    Just a thought.
  16. Mar 15, 2019
    #16

    Dave89 Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    17,359
    And you still come in to defend him. Typical.
  17. Mar 15, 2019
    #17

    cyberman Full Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    15,127
    Maybe we should sticky this thread around poppy wearing time just to kill the McClean argument before it starts?
  18. Mar 15, 2019
    #18

    Andrew~ Squiggle

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    4,969
    It's a fairly complex case and the people bringing it probably needed a lot of evidence gathered. Recently the government made it harder to bring cases against servicemen of this type so they probably needed quite a bit of time to make sure it wasn't one of the more frivolous claims.

    Even if, hypothetically speaking, soldiers were immune to prosecution while at war, the troubles were not a war.
  19. Mar 15, 2019
    #19

    Dave89 Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    17,359
    Why? So even more twats with no idea come in and declare it ridiculous that shooting unarmed people in the head is frowned upon?
  20. Mar 15, 2019
    #20

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2014
    Messages:
    33,478
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Fair enough. I thought generally soldiers were immune from this kind of thing. There was a similar case not long ago about a serviceman in Afghanistan that was thrown out.
  21. Mar 15, 2019
    #21

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    20,685
    One of the arguments you hear from the right in the UK is that its fine to prosecute him/them but only if some cases of the atrocities the IRA committed that killed civilians are reopened. I'm not really engaged in this so what are the counter arguments to that?
  22. Mar 15, 2019
    #22

    Andrew~ Squiggle

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    4,969
    If you're talking about the Marine A case, that was very different and wasn't exactly 'thrown out'. It went to court and he was found not guilty because of diminished responsibilty (they looked into his mental state the time etc etc). And the fact that it was in Afghanistan where the military was in an official war with a specified set of rules of engagement played a part. The British Army was not at war in Ireland, so the only defense ( a very reasonable one at that) that this particular ex-soldier can use is that maybe he felt there was an imminent threat to life from the person he shot - he'd have to prove that in court.

    Not sure what the details are, but I think it's fair that this is taken to court at least. Whether, based on the circumstances, he is guilty or not is another matter.

    I think it's a fair point, just that there is likely more evidence linking particular individuals to one crime than the other. The Army keeps pretty good records of most things that happen, and I don't imagine the IRA was similarly meticulous.
  23. Mar 15, 2019
    #23

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2014
    Messages:
    33,478
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Thanks. As someone said ina post earlier, he was part of a regiment that had some something similar in another town. So quite obvious it was premeditated. Is this the first time charges have been brought on anyone for the Bloody Sunday massacre?
  24. Mar 15, 2019
    #24

    Andrew~ Squiggle

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    4,969
    I think so, there was an inquiry into it where soldiers gave anonymous testimonies but this is the first so far.
  25. Mar 15, 2019
    #25

    stevoc Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    9,565
    Location:
    And Solskjær has won it!
    Posted these in the Northern Ireland thread but they're probably more relevant in here.


  26. Mar 15, 2019
    #26

    Dave89 Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    17,359
    Hundreds upon hundreds of people have been convicted in Northern Ireland for troubles-related killings.

    The British military have killed over 150 civilians and only four soldiers have been convicted of murder (an one of those convictions was overturned on appeal). All four were freed after just five years of their life sentences through the use of the “Royal Prerogative of Mercy”. All were allowed to re-join the British army.

    There was never any balance. Current attempts to redress that are not the lopsided injustice that the British claim.
  27. Mar 15, 2019
    #27

    Raulduke Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,880
    Also the entire premise of that argument is a false equivalence anyway. Saville concluded that the bloody Sunday victims were entirely innocent so why should their families quest for justice be in any way related to what does or does not happen to IRA members? It exposes an attitude that all Catholics are/were the same whether they picked up a gun or not.
  28. Mar 15, 2019
    #28

    golden_blunder Site admin. Manchester United fan Staff

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2000
    Messages:
    88,416
    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    Because it’s been whitewashed for years
  29. Mar 15, 2019
    #29

    Zlatattack Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    3,629
    It's a shambles. Just 1 person being prosecuted? Following orders is not an excuse to shoot dead innocent civillians.

    Anywhere the military replaces police, these kinds of gross abuses tend to happen. The only way to prevent them is to prosecute the soldiers responsible.
  30. Mar 15, 2019
    #30

    balaks Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2014
    Messages:
    6,014
    Location:
    Northern Ireland
    Supports:
    Tottenham Hotspur
    The bottom line is here that nobody is above the law and that if people were killed without justification and there is enough evidence then the perpetrator should be put before the courts. Having said that - when you look at the terms of the GFA (which I voted for by the way) and the release of murderers and now with the knowledge that there are numerous ex-IRA murders around the country with a get out of jail free letter I can understand why some might think it is one rule for one and another rule for another - it's not as simple as that and as others have said there has been a very small amount of prosecutions against army/police despite lots of evidence suggesting collusion. It was a messy conflict with carnage caused by every party involved in it and we are still at the beginning of what is going to be a long and painful reconciliation period. People outside of NI don't fully understand the depth of feeling there remains here and the pain and suffering that continues to this day due to the horror of the troubles.
  31. Mar 15, 2019
    #31

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    20,685
    Its only a faction of British people that claim that, on the right of the political spectrum.

    Thanks for the answers.
  32. Mar 15, 2019
    #32

    Dave89 Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    17,359
    I understand its not everybody, but where I live, most people who call themselves British would claim that. And so do the British government, who represent you.
  33. Mar 15, 2019
    #33

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    20,685
    Where do you live?
  34. Mar 15, 2019
    #34

    Dave89 Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    17,359
    On the topic of the Good Friday agreement, the killers were convicted and served a lesser term. So I'd be content for the Bloody Sunday killers to be convicted, serve a comparable sentence and get early release. Just not bothering to prosecute them is not comparable.

    As for the on the run letters, those are not pardons. They were simply a statement that they weren't currently being sought. The man whose case brought these letters to light is currently subject to extradition procedures. He certainly doesn't appear to have immunity.
  35. Mar 15, 2019
    #35

    Dave89 Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    17,359
    Belfast.
  36. Mar 15, 2019
    #36

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    20,685
    Exactly. It is far from representative of the UK as a whole.

    Is it an official position of the UK government, I thought it was a view held by some Tories only?
  37. Mar 15, 2019
    #37

    Dave89 Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    17,359
  38. Mar 15, 2019
    #38

    Ramshock CAF Pilib De Brún Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    38,164
    Location:
    Swimming against a tide of idiots and spoofers
    Because Britain thats why
  39. Mar 15, 2019
    #39

    Ramshock CAF Pilib De Brún Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    38,164
    Location:
    Swimming against a tide of idiots and spoofers
    Same with the Ballymurphy massacre.

    People are saying well why arent we prosecuting IRA members, theres a murdering bastard called John Downey thats to be extradited to the UK for his part in bombings.
  40. Mar 15, 2019
    #40

    Ramshock CAF Pilib De Brún Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    38,164
    Location:
    Swimming against a tide of idiots and spoofers
    Yep, all fecking proud of it