Can we please stop using 4-2-3-1?!

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Peanut Butter, Dec 30, 2017.

  1. Dec 30, 2017
    #1

    Peanut Butter Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2016
    Messages:
    5,498
    The weird thing is, Jose loved 4-3-3 at Porto and Chelsea.

    Why are we persisting with this system? Matic is asked to do too much clearing up hence expecting Pogba to chip in and defend.

    Play a 4-3-3 for god sake and let Pogba express himself.

    And this is coming from the most Pro Jose and anti kneejerk RedCafe member!
  2. Dec 30, 2017
    #2

    SwansonsTache incontinent sexual deviant & German sausage lover

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2015
    Messages:
    15,257
    Location:
    Norway
    Absolute shambolic formation, no support from midfield in attack and not solid enough in midfield to take control of the game defensively.
  3. Dec 30, 2017
    #3

    liamp Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2015
    Messages:
    971
    How much of it is the formation and how much of it is the coaching of play within the formation?
  4. Dec 30, 2017
    #4

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    20,344
    Turns Pogba into a liability in defence and greatly limits what he is great at. Makes no sense to me.
  5. Dec 30, 2017
    #5

    Peanut Butter Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2016
    Messages:
    5,498
    He became obsessed with the 4-2-3-1 in his second spell at Chelsea. It's weird.
  6. Dec 30, 2017
    #6

    Peanut Butter Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2016
    Messages:
    5,498
    The formation doesn't help at all. Look at Pogba for Juventus or France. He was surrounded by midfield generals who do the tackling.

    He shouldn't be dropping deep just outside our 18 yard box. He should be playing from midfield to opponent 18 yard box.
  7. Dec 30, 2017
    #7

    Castia Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    9,722
    It’s worse because he plays people out of position as well with 2 attacking midfielders on the wings and a fecking winger through the middle.
  8. Dec 30, 2017
    #8

    waza7111 Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2013
    Messages:
    865
    I wouldn't mind seeing an old fashioned 4-4-2 with Rashford and Martial in the box.
  9. Dec 30, 2017
    #9

    Jaybomb Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Messages:
    4,460
    We can use 4-2-3-1 if we get some proper fecking wingers in.

    Our players can’t cross for shit.

    Shaw is useless, Mkhitaryan was shocking and Mata isn’t a winger by any stretch. On top of all that... Young is just depressing to watch and Valencia is also wank at crossing so we’re pretty much hopeless.

    Why José instructed his players to cross when he knows none of them can ACTUALLY CROSS is beyond me.

    Just get Sandro, Perisic and someone like Mahrez or Willian in. Martial and Rashford are two strikers and Mata/Mkhitaryan are two wingers so how can you expect them to be natural wingers in this system? It’s absurd.
  10. Dec 30, 2017
    #10

    liamp Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2015
    Messages:
    971
    I agree that the formation doesn't help Pogba, but converting to a 4-3-3 or 3-5-2 isn't necessarily going to solve problems if our attacking play remains as directionless as it is.
  11. Dec 30, 2017
    #11

    Peanut Butter Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2016
    Messages:
    5,498
    Never happening under Jose.
  12. Dec 30, 2017
    #12

    settembrini Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2015
    Messages:
    2,365
    3 at the back was giving us good football and good results. Incredible blunder by Mourinho that he abandoned it for the City game and he is compounding it every week by refusing to switch back despite how bad our results are becoming with a back 4.
  13. Dec 30, 2017
    #13

    Carolina Red Moderator Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    17,407
    Location:
    South Carolina
    I have to say, I feel the same. And I’m firmly in the pro-Jose camp myself.
  14. Dec 30, 2017
    #14

    Irrational. Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    21,368
    Location:
    LVG's notebook
    We looked even better with 3 at the back vs Spurs.
  15. Dec 30, 2017
    #15

    Carolina Red Moderator Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    17,407
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Right now though if we line up with 2 strikers on the pitch, who is our backup on the bench?

    Jose has just said Zlatan is out a month.
  16. Dec 30, 2017
    #16

    el3mel Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2016
    Messages:
    23,279
    Location:
    Egypt
    We don't have wingers nor a third good midfielder.

    Think I'll start to agree with those wanting us to play the 3-5-2. Seems our best shot at the moment as we have no real wingers.
  17. Dec 30, 2017
    #17

    Carolina Red Moderator Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    17,407
    Location:
    South Carolina
    I would love for him to come here either next month or this coming summer.
  18. Dec 30, 2017
    #18

    joedirt87 Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2010
    Messages:
    3,211
    I think 4-2-3-1 could still work if Jose had the team playing much higher up the pitch and pressing. Maybe you sit back to counter against the top sides but on a day like today Southampton would have been choked inside their own half if Mou has his back line siit on Southampton's side of the pitch.
  19. Dec 30, 2017
    #19

    Skills Snitch

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    Messages:
    26,663
    Formations mean very little if the players are coached correctly.
  20. Dec 30, 2017
    #20

    Siorac Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,284
    Location:
    16th century
    3-5-2 probably looks our best bet but to be honest, we're past the point where the formation is the biggest issue. I'm sure we can look shite in just about any shape.
  21. Dec 30, 2017
    #21

    fil1542 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    Vienna
    Supports:
    Jose Mourinho
    I don´t think you have currently the personnel for that formation. Herrera have been in a bad spell basically since the beginning of the season and Carrick and Fellaini are out injured for quite a long time. McTominay is not good enough to be a regular starter in the PL (yet). Also, especially against opponents defending very deep it is useful to have an extra creative player in the last third to play between the lines. With Carrick available he could be a playmaker from the deep with Pogba playing further up the pitch and Fellaini could add an additional aerial threat. But I don´t think bringing in Herrera or McTominay who do not offer a lot going forward would solve any problem in the attack. Of course, Pogba could play higher up the pitch, but I don´t think he would be involved that much in the game and would have to drop deep to carry the ball forward anyway.

    I don´t think that 3-5-2 is the right formation to break deep sitting opponents down, either. This formation only works when the number 10 and the second striker have some spaces to run into.
  22. Dec 30, 2017
    #22

    Peanut Butter Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2016
    Messages:
    5,498
    A consistent 4-3-3 with Herrera and Matic doing the grunt work would be better.

    Rashers as no.9 with Martial and Lingard providing width.

    Football is a simple sport and Jose is being a stubborn ol get.
  23. Dec 30, 2017
    #23

    MrMourinho#7 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2017
    Messages:
    729
    Location:
    Combat
    He used it in Real Madrid for 3 years and in most of the el Clasicos against probably the best 3 man midfield out there too. But he had Ronaldo and Di maria as wingers where we have no one in that quality. I agree with you; we need to build our team around Pogba and to get the best out of him 4-3-3 is the way to go. But our attacking play and quality in the final third is just not good enough especially in wide areas.
  24. Dec 30, 2017
    #24

    Home&Away Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,100
    352 has been the answer ever since LVG left
  25. Dec 30, 2017
    #25

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    16,112
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Mourinho's favourite formation.

    Won the league in 14/15, where he used Fabregas as an 8, who registered 18 assists. Wouldn't say Fabregas is any more defensive than Pogba either.

    I just think Chelsea's front four back then was a lot superior to ours is now.

    Their front four normally consisted of:

    Costa
    Hazard Oscar Willian

    I didn't rate Oscar, but his hard work made up for Fabregas' defensive frailties. I guess Mourinho is trying to do the same with Lingard and Pogba, in that respect.

    I actually don't mind a 4231, but it has to be played properly, and as I said, our front four doesn't compare to Chelsea's back then.

    Our current front four:

    Lukaku
    Martial Lingard Mata
    Lukaku - I'm confident Lukaku will start scoring consistently again, and will always get goals, providing he gets good service.

    Mata - One dimensional. When he plays on the right, his only option is to cut onto his left and link play. To me, we need much more than that. Willian, in comparison, was able to mix his game up. Although he spent a lot of time cutting inside, he also had the ability to go on the outside and delivery crosses in.

    Lingard - For now, I actually don't mind Lingard. I actually think with more consistent wide players, he'd look better and score more. Not the best player in the world, but creates a balance in midfield for Pogba to roam forward. He's hard working. Will constantly run off the ball and create space for others. Maybe Mourinho sees comparisons with Oscar there.

    Martial - Hazard is what I hope he turns into, but he has a long way. Started the season well, but last month or so, performances have dropped. Guess the whole teams has, but to me, he should be our go to player. Someone who we can rely on when in desperate need of something special to happen. He does it sometimes, but not often enough, in my opinion.

    In Hazard, Chelsea had a player who could win a game in a blink of an eye. In the EPL that season, he scored 14 and assisted 9, and won Player of the Year award. We lack that player - a match winner.​


    When you look at those reasons, it's obvious to see why we're not putting in the expected performances. We need special players in the final third. If/when we do, a 4231 isn't that bad of a formation. It has a good balance to it.
  26. Dec 30, 2017
    #26

    Mcking Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2017
    Messages:
    2,756
    Location:
    Nigeria
    We looked good in attack when we played 352, and won ?4 straight games. I don't know why Mourinho changed back to 4231, and his selections lately, have been questionable.
    Dropping Lingard for Zlatan, starting Mkhi ahead of Martial and Rashford. It looks really grim with Jose at the helm and he's made it even worse, stating that we won't be in the market in January. The sooner we sort out our attack, the better.
  27. Dec 30, 2017
    #27

    PED Fraudiola Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    4-2-3-1 obviously doesn’t work.Why is Jose still persistent in using it every game ?

    First we dont have a good n10, so theres no need of it at all. Mata, Mikh, Lingard all bad at n10.

    Second we dont have any real winger-forwards.None of the mids, strikers we have are good at the wings.

    Third Pogba needs to play in a 3 man midfield.He sucks in 2 man mid cause he has to defend and along with Matic, doing the same this hinders our attack. He's best at 3 man mid, with Matic sitting behind as CDM in front of 2 CBs and supporting Pogba and third mid who needs to be box to box type of player who also attacks.

    With wingbacks attacking this turns into 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 which is better system atm with what we have at our disposal.

    We need a new RB, Right winger, CM (box to box type). These are mandatory. Also geeting rid of some deadwood.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2017
  28. Dec 31, 2017
    #28

    Freak Born a freak always a freak.

    Joined:
    May 8, 2004
    Messages:
    17,478
    Location:
    Somewhere in your mind, touching a nerve
    What formation did he favour at Madrid?
  29. Dec 31, 2017
    #29

    abdo99 Full Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2016
    Messages:
    8,744
    4-2-3-1. Alonso and Khedira/Modric in midfield. Di Maria, Ozil, Ronaldo in front and Benzema/Higuain as the striker.
  30. Dec 31, 2017
    #30

    Jaqen H'ghar I can't drive...55

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2015
    Messages:
    556
    I agree.

    We have an abundance of strikers and centre backs, no true wingers, with Valencia, Young doing well at wingback, and no capable no. 10.

    A counter attacking 3-5-2 seems the formation to bring out the best in the squad currently available.
  31. Dec 31, 2017
    #31

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2002
    Messages:
    47,155
    Location:
    Founder of IhateMakeleles.org and Gourcufffanboysa
    The formation doesnt matter. Our attack is too weak
  32. Dec 31, 2017
    #32

    Esquire Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2014
    Messages:
    1,777
    But 352 is not most effective against “inferior” teams (not that we are beating them these days)? If the opponent parks the bus or plays a very conservative game, 352 is not good enough to break them down?
  33. Dec 31, 2017
    #33

    berbatrick Full Member Scout

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    11,352
    We don't have wide midfielders though...Lingard? Definitely not Mata (better closer to goal) or Mkhi (best on the bench).
  34. Dec 31, 2017
    #34

    Jaqen H'ghar I can't drive...55

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2015
    Messages:
    556
    I think it plays to our strengths, which is the most important thing. Even against weaker teams we have the advantage of playing with two strikers, three in our midfield, and the wingbacks could push up more often and provide width.

    Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not actually a fan of the 3-5-2, but I am in favour of pragmatism. Until we have better personnel, suited to the manager's vision, I think this suits the squad we do have, playing to our strengths while working around the glaring weaknesses we have, be it misfiring lone striker, unbalanced midfielders, lack of right winger and the problem of leftback.
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  35. Dec 31, 2017
    #35

    Esquire Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2014
    Messages:
    1,777
    Not bad points but from a pure playing style perspective I think the 352 is very hard on the eyes. You are right it suits our personnel (which in itself speaks for a lot after 250m spent we still have this unbalanced squad). However, the biggest problem I see are that are two wingbacks aren’t good enough to make this work. Nor are our midfielders (Pogba aside) fast enough to transition quickly and provide the strikers the service they need. So it just ends up as hoofing the ball up the pitch under a different formation. Though given our recent results it wouldn’t hurt to try this.
  36. Dec 31, 2017
    #36

    Dobbs Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Messages:
    4,696
    With Lukaku and Ibra being out 3-5-2 seems the way to go against Everton. Neither Martial or Rashford look ready to lead the line on their own so play them together. Lingard in behind and I think you at least then have three players on the same wavelength.
  37. Dec 31, 2017
    #37

    Ace of Spades Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2013
    Messages:
    2,513
    Just go with 3 at the back, it allows the WBs to attack more and gets players like Mata, Martial, Rashford and Mkitaryan central. At this point, I think this is our best bet.

    Not sure if it will work though, as it feels there is a deeper problem than just formations and tactics. The team just look shot of confidence, and not a single player looks happy. Not sure what can be done for this.
  38. Dec 31, 2017
    #38

    LawCharltonBest Enjoys watching fox porn

    Joined:
    May 17, 2012
    Messages:
    7,965
    Location:
    Salford
    We won pretty much every match with 3 at the back, right up to Arsenal away. Then changed it for no reason and haven't won since.

    Maybe I'm over simplifying but maybe that was stupid
  39. Dec 31, 2017
    #39

    Oldyella Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    1,837
    Good point. It almost feels like two sides atm, defence and forwards with Pogba, Matic trying to run between the two as defence is so deep.
  40. Dec 31, 2017
    #40

    Home&Away Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,100
    On paper 352 looks like a defensive formation especially against inferior teams but it really isn't.

    The 352 allows us to have up to 5 attackers at a time not including the midfielders at all; just as much as it allows us to have up to 5 defenders when defending. However Jose either doesn't fully trust the formation or trust some of the players at his disposal.

    The wingbacks are a part of our attack more so than the defence due to the stability of the extra man in defence - if you remember the games against Watford & Arsenal; the positions & goals young +Valencia got to, it was hard for them to handle so much attackers.

    Then there is mistakes like not playing a player who can play as an intermediate CDM & CB as our central ball playing CB; instead we play extra defensively with a sweeper like smalling causing a huge gap between defense & midfield. As much as he is looked down by some a player like Blind is hand crafted for this role.

    Lingard at AM has been great because he plays as an intermediate CF & CAM just like we should be having one at CB & CDM. However we have the ability to play the likes of martial there or by wishful thinking someone like dybala can allow us to play seriously attacking