Carragher article in The Telegraph

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Damien, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. Dec 29, 2017
    #1

    Damien Self-Aware RedCafe Database (and Admin) Staff

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    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...-guardiola-man/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

    Please read the full thing and not just the headline before responding. I disagree that Guardiola would win the title with this squad, but do agree with the point about player development. Bar Lingard, Fellaini and Young we've not seen big signs of improvement in our players. I also agree with the bit about his press conferences of late too.

    I disagree with this bit too:

    If Mourinho was purely about the instant hit he wouldn't have signed Bailly or Lindelof and we wouldn't be linked to Malcom.
  2. Dec 29, 2017
    #2

    clarkydaz Full Member

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    certainly agree with this

  3. Dec 29, 2017
    #3

    3KDré Full Member

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    I agree with most of what he is saying to be honest. Mourinho has improved a few players though I would say. Guardiola has his improved his attackers the most whereas Mourinho has improved his defenders the most, which is natural given our styles of play.
  4. Dec 29, 2017
    #4

    breakout67 Full Member

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    Guardiola stayed 4 years at his boyhood club and 3 years at Bayern Munich. Guardiola admitted himself that he doesnt like staying long at clubs because it becomes difficult to motivate players.

    Rashford and Martial are getting lots of gametime yet are clearly not fully developed players. McTominay has started Champions League games and looks like a genuine option as a backup.

    Its a nothing article.
  5. Dec 29, 2017
    #5

    harms Way Staff

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    A very good article that is, sadly, pretty much spot on.
  6. Dec 29, 2017
    #6

    Denis79 Full Member

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    Disagree with the article completely, The squads inherited by each respectively are far from equal, a old Rooney vs Aguero, a old Carrick, Schweinsteiger and Schneiderlein compared to Silva and De Bryune. Our defence is working well enough and I agree our defence was and is better than City's, no wonder our attack is limping after such a massive overhaul.
  7. Dec 29, 2017
    #7

    el3mel Full Member

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    How much players at the City squad that Pep inherited he has improved ? I'll say Otamendi and Sterling only. The rest were either great already or he bought them himself. This improvement point is pointless.

    And for sure I won't give any attention to a Scouser's article about our team.
  8. Dec 29, 2017
    #8

    RooneyLegend Full Member

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    Haven't seen a more spot on article in a long time.
  9. Dec 29, 2017
    #9

    Fully Fledged Full Member

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    Carragher. I wont read it even if it supports my opinion.
  10. Dec 29, 2017
    #10

    KM I’m afraid I just blue myself Staff

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    It's a spot on article. It's exhausting supporting a Mourinho team, the bloke keeps on starting a fight when there's none.
  11. Dec 29, 2017
    #11

    Damien Self-Aware RedCafe Database (and Admin) Staff

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    Delph too. Not just about the players inherited but improving players bought as well. Last season Stones was a joke on here.
  12. Dec 29, 2017
    #12

    Dolf Full Member

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    Can't deny that there aren't many players who have actually improved or have become a proper reliable first 11 player ready to fight for the title.
  13. Dec 29, 2017
    #13

    cyberman Full Member

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    Im not being funny but are articles like these posted outside of relevant threads just so we can have the same arguments over and over again?
    I mean we need a squad overhaul for a reason and its not down to unfulfilled potential
  14. Dec 29, 2017
    #14

    Massive Spanner Thinks Geoff Shreeves has one

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    I've actually come to quite like Carragher since he became a pundit. Talks a lot of sense and actually comes across as far less anti-United than the painful Gary Neville. I actually think he's the most positive pundit about Utd on Sky Sports.
  15. Dec 29, 2017
    #15

    liamp Full Member

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    I would add that Silva's also having one of his best years and he's definitely improved Fernandinho.
  16. Dec 29, 2017
    #16

    el3mel Full Member

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    Stones was bought for 50m, and was the second most expensive defender ever at this time. Feels illogical to say Pep improved him if he bought him for such a price from the start, and anyway, Otamendi is the most outstanding one in their defense currently, not Stones.

    If we're talking about the squad inherited by both, then both developed arguably the same number of players. Pep improved Otamendi, Sterling, and Delph ( if you want to include him). Mourinho improved Lingard, Young and Fellaini. Regarding the players bought by both, both brought good players that improved the team, but the key difference is Pep brought more players that covered more areas on the pitch, while Mourinho focused on getting 3/4 good players each summer only, which improved the team not to the degree we wanted it to happen.
  17. Dec 29, 2017
    #17

    Henry Gaervell New Member

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    Loud mouthed carragher who was getting his knockers in a twist and making out that VVD is going to be the best defender in the world.

    I take whatever he says with a pinch of salt
  18. Dec 29, 2017
    #18

    el3mel Full Member

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    Both were excellent players before.
  19. Dec 29, 2017
    #19

    soapythecat Full Member

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    I oddly like JC as a pundit. He has a good sense of humour and is pretty spot on with his assessment of teams/managers.
    He’s certainly right about the press conference bit. JM is a total embarrassment these days and I dread his press conferences. His character has changed since joining United and I don’t think it’s for the better.
  20. Dec 29, 2017
    #20

    Fully Fledged Full Member

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    I can't stand Neville now. after all we have done for him and he goes and becomes total ABU so that he can become a football pundit.

    Scholes is a pundit, Ferdinand is a pundit neither of them have gone ABU to do so. They have kept their Man Utd bias the same way that ex Liverpool players have towards their club.
  21. Dec 29, 2017
    #21

    Greck Full Member

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    Lukaku/Morata was a step in the right direction but might be worth keeping an eye on the age of the attackers we're linked with. For our own long term good
  22. Dec 29, 2017
    #22

    MaxiPaxi likes to shove his mum's boiled eggs up his rectum

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    The thing you have to ask yourself - is Mourinho worth the price, when he’s like this? As people mentioned, being prickly, negative, picking fights where is none to be had.

    Jose of old, yes!

    In his current state - I’m not so sure!
  23. Dec 29, 2017
    #23

    Fully Fledged Full Member

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    You really thought that Stones was worth that when City brought him?
  24. Dec 29, 2017
    #24

    Jig1234 Full Member

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    Hard to disagree with this piece from Carragher. It's always someone else's fault with Mourinho. His efforts to always try and deflect blame are getting boring, and nobody is buying it anymore.

    Right now, Guardiola looks like a coach. Mourinho looks like a manager. The difference is that Pep has made most of his players better, changed opinions on players that some didn't rate at all. Sterling is thriving, Stones looks better, collectively he has build a team with players that works for each other.

    Mourinho has been handed 7/8 players he wanted since he has arrived if we include Perisic. Considering that we have been 2nd in the league for most of the season, how many players would get into a mid-team of the season? - Apart from De Gea. Few players have been consistent and very good. Valencia and Young, Lingard has shown some quality and improved his numbers of goals, they all deserve a shout but once you narrow it down you'll probably end up going for a player from another team.

    Look at Conte. Did he get a single first choice player last season? No - Took what he could get found a way to win a title. This year Mourinho hi-jacked the one player he wanted in Lukaku and is only 1 point behind us. Conte has also beaten him two times. Not sure Mourinho is even better than Conte at this point.

    I don't see any quality in our football. It's rigid, slow and predictable. It's football thats ugly but sometimes efficient which might be why we are 2nd (for now).

    I think Mourinho has a lot of issues he needs to work on but I'm not convinced he knows how to stop City. At the end of the day, we have to ask how often can you play ugly and get away with it. Mourinho used to be able to win titles being rather reserve in his approach but I don't think that will work with the way Man City are going about it.

    Teams like Man City and LFC to some extent have more about them going forward than us. Which means we will always go into games against them being afraid of their attack. It should not be like that at Utd.

    I think Mourinho is in danger of being left behind Guardiola and Klopp. LFC they only issue they have is that their back five is useless, they are a very potent side going forward and I think with Van Dyke and Naby Keïta coming next season I see them making forward strides. I don't see that at Utd, I see a team of individuals with no flair or confidence to play with risk.
  25. Dec 29, 2017
    #25

    el3mel Full Member

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    No, but if you don't expect a defender to be an instant impact you shouldn't go on and spend 50m on him.
  26. Dec 29, 2017
    #26

    clarkydaz Full Member

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    Pep has improved them from Pellegrini. Silva is now pressing like a maniac and lunging into tackles, and KDB is also full of work rate
  27. Dec 29, 2017
    #27

    Fully Fledged Full Member

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    No you shouldn't but I looked at that transfer and thought no way.
  28. Dec 29, 2017
    #28

    el3mel Full Member

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    Silva has been a key player for City for years and Fernandinho was always a good player. The likes of Silve, Fernandinho, Aguero and KDB are the likes of players that will perform under any manager, similar to the likes of Pogba here for example.
  29. Dec 29, 2017
    #29

    liamp Full Member

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    I'm not sure I understand the bar you're setting here. Otamendi was a 32mm GBP signing and Sterling was 44mm GBP...both were pretty expensive and both were excellent players before they came to City.

    Does it matter if they were, at some point, excellent players or not? The point is that, under Pep, a number of City players have played better football than just about at any other point previously in their careers. Whether or not those players were excellent is kind of irrelevant since most players playing at clubs like United or City are going to be pretty decent to begin with.
  30. Dec 29, 2017
    #30

    clarkydaz Full Member

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    and like I said, they didn't play this well under the previous manager. Pep had no problem dropping Aguero saying he isn't working hard enough, whilst Jose a few hours ago said Lukaku needs a rest but wont rest him
  31. Dec 29, 2017
    #31

    el3mel Full Member

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    Otamendi was considered a massive failure at City during his debut season, and Sterling was very young when they signed him and lacked any sort of consistency in his play, so fair to say he improved them.

    I some times think City never played good football before Pep arrived, as if they were in a massive crisis, playing shite football and Pep changed that. Fact is City has always played great looking attacking football these past years. Their team was molded for Pep when he arrived in terms of style, but they had some very old aged players in defense that set them back last season, especially in full backs position. Pep got rid of them and everything is clicking. Pep deserves credit but please let's not pretend they were never a great attacking teams previously.
  32. Dec 29, 2017
    #32

    Damien Self-Aware RedCafe Database (and Admin) Staff

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    The article talks about a variety of things that isn't just encompassed by one thread (press conferences and developing players is different to the strength of each squad, which I assume you're referring to when you're on about 'relevant threads'), and megathreads aren't allowed anymore where everything is stuffed in one place.

    I kind of get what you mean but he was bought for potential. He was nowhere near the finished article at Everton and he has clearly improved.
  33. Dec 29, 2017
    #33

    AR87 Full Member

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    I can't comment on Otamendi since I'm not familar with his pre-City career, but Sterling and Stones playing the best football of their careers at age 23 isn't just about the manager. It's also an age at which players tend to progress in their careers. to a higher level.

    Bailly has "played the best football of his career" under Mourinho but now that he's hurt I guess that doesn't count. Lingard at age 25 is also now playing the best of his career and producing goals in addition to being a local lad that runs around a lot. Young, Jones and Fellaini also have turned in career best performance under Mourinho, showing he's extracted value from unfancied players he's inherited as well, something Pep has also done, a credit to both.

    IMO they're both great managers and Pep is more innovative while Mourinho is more pragmatic. Pep inherited a better squad with less to fix and yet invested more in doing so. Mourinho has spent about 100m less in the market after inheriting a worse squad and has much more work to do to catch up to Pep.

    If the article just stopped at Mourinho should shutup I'd agree with it entirely. He really should. He's his own worst enemy, which we knew when he was appointed based on his past.
  34. Dec 29, 2017
    #34

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    The whole premise of the article is so wrong-headed (that the two Manchester clubs started the season with equally strong squads) that it’s impossible to take any of the rest of it seriously.

    Also, re improving players, Rashford and Martial have both been much more productive this season than last. They’re having a wobble now but that’s what young players do. We’ve already seen stats showing how similar their productivity is to Sane, who is lucky to be playing in a team at the peak of its powers while our lads have been in a team shorn of its best player for most of the season.

    Which leaves us with the improvement of Ottamendi and Stones. And you could easily argue this has been matched by what we’ve seen from Jones and (pre-injury) Rojo.
  35. Dec 29, 2017
    #35

    Bubz27 ACMarket employee (not the owner)

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    He's exaggerated points to make his seem stronger. He's left out points very conveniently. Almost disregarded Moyes and Van Gaal time here and the dross they bought and has had to be fixed.

    Not to say parts aren't right, but he's written to support his point rather then objectively.
  36. Dec 29, 2017
    #36

    Pexbo has never watched Star Wars

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    Players that have improved for me:

    Martial
    Valencia
    Rojo - preinjury
    Lingard
    Rashford (out of form but he's improved - how much of that is natural progression though can be debated)
    Fellaini
    Pogba
    Young
  37. Dec 29, 2017
    #37

    BeforeKeanetherewasRobson Full Member

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    Trying to show himself as a football 'correspondent' when he's an average pundit who occasionally makes a good point.

    Couldn't care what he says... good, bad or indifferent. I'll make my own mind up on United/Jose and sure most United fans will also.
  38. Dec 29, 2017
    #38

    ROFLUTION Full Member

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    He has taken our very shabby injury-prone defence and turned them all except Shaw into the very best you can - That is surely something.
  39. Dec 29, 2017
    #39

    Damien Self-Aware RedCafe Database (and Admin) Staff

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    Carragher was talking about players improving from when the managers inherited the squad. Are they both better now than their first season? Bit debatable but no doubt they're better than last season and I agree about young players having a wobble.

    I agree with your first point too about Carragher thinking the clubs had equally strong squads when City have actual fullbacks and we don't.
  40. Dec 29, 2017
    #40

    LARulz Full Member

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    Is it just me (probably) but when we talk about players that have stepped up under any given manager at United it is usually the same selection: Young, Valencia, Fellani, Lingard etc.

    The less fashionable players but generally players who are consistent/nothing fancy