Chelsea and City damaging the English game

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by TheReligion, Oct 30, 2017.

  1. Oct 30, 2017
    #1

    TheReligion Abusive

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    Both Carragher and Neville talking about England youth success on MNF.

    Very valid points being made that both City and Chelsea hoover up alot of young English talent yet both club's refuse to allow them the opportunity in the PL. Neither can see that changing given the squads and financial set ups, especially when you look at Chelsea's bizarre loan system.

    What can be done?
  2. Oct 30, 2017
    #2

    Sterling Archer Full Member

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    There's something to be said about players and their families choosing one setup over the other too, no? It's not as though they're stuck there right? Or am I putting too much responsibility on the players and their families, agents, dreams and egos?
  3. Oct 30, 2017
    #3

    lysglimt Full Member

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    The most logical thing is to change the substitute-system. For instance something like this:

    A club is allowed to make 5 substitutions as long as a minimum of 4 english players are amongst the 16 players being used
  4. Oct 30, 2017
    #4

    TheReligion Abusive

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    No totally agree. Carragher was appealing to families to look at this and avoid City and Chelsea given the evidence you simply won't get an opportunity.
  5. Oct 30, 2017
    #5

    Dante Bang Average but can post Blindfolded for 15 secs

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    Or... a maximum of 4 substitutions per game, of which no more than 3 can be non-homegrown. Easy.
  6. Oct 30, 2017
    #6

    Red_toad Full Member

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    Or just limit the amount of players any one club can loan. And hope that parents look longer term at how players can develop their careers, rather than trying to cash in while they're youngsters.
  7. Oct 30, 2017
    #7

    R'hllor Full Member

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    Are they kidnapping them? Taking their parents as prisoners, blackmailing them? Parents, agents and at the end young player, they all make their choice, taking their own path. I will give example in Serbian players, Danilo Pantic, went from Partizan Belgrade directly to Chelsea, then like majority he went to Holland on loan and think he is back at Partizan at the moment, not sure even is he playing that much. Milinkovic Savic, left Serbia after being rewarded as 3rd best player in tournament where Serbia won it u20 WC or something like that. So, he left Serbia, went to Belgium, progressed, joined Lazio as next step and now there are stories that Juve might get him, we are interested and he might leave Lazio for 60-70 mil.

    If he comes to England, means unlike Pantic, he decided to change 3 unknown countries to him, try to learn 3 different languages and progress while adapting on all those changes.
  8. Oct 30, 2017
    #8

    Fridge chutney Full Member

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    Agree @TheReligion . Rules should be in place to stop Chelsea's loan system shenanigans and we should just ban City and their owners from football.

    It's a great shame as England have a great crop of youngsters (look at our uX success!). But City don't give their youth a chance. And they have hoovered up some good ones.
  9. Oct 30, 2017
    #9

    Sterling Archer Full Member

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    Aye. I can sympathize with wanting even believing you or your kid can succeed at these clubs. But being honest and maybe moving to a youth team further away is not easy.
  10. Oct 30, 2017
    #10

    Skills Snitch

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    City already have dummy clubs in Girona & New York. They'd just 'transfer' them.
  11. Oct 30, 2017
    #11

    adexkola Arsenal supporter

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    Yes you are.
  12. Oct 30, 2017
    #12

    11101 Full Member

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    That's actually a very good idea.

    I'd refine it further and say something like 3 usual subs and 2 extra if they are academy products under the age of 21.

    Chelsea screwed it up years ago but many seem to have forgotten. City are just improving on their model.
  13. Oct 30, 2017
    #13

    GrandJury Banned

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    Some of the ideas above could make a difference.

    But nothing will be done and nothing will change.
  14. Oct 30, 2017
    #14

    Sterling Archer Full Member

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    Given your monicker and that I'm also a self-professed American arse :smirk: let me ask you the following seemingly unrelated questions:

    Do you think public schools should be forced to not sell soda/pop, and provide only healthy food to kids?

    How do you feel about youth soccer making it illegal to head the ball for fear of concussions?
  15. Oct 30, 2017
    #15

    stevoc Full Member

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    Maybe i am misunderstanding what you are saying but how would that help young english players get more games? United for instance could name a squad with Young, Carrick, Smalling and Jones and use 5 subs but give no young academy players a run out.

    Another way to do it would be to allow teams to make a 4th sub but the 4th sub must be one of 3 named academy players 20 or under.
  16. Oct 30, 2017
    #16

    TheReligion Abusive

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    I agree although with the publicity this is getting you could see parents vetoing Chelsea and City.

    Neville made a great point that both club's should look at the value of promoting youth players as part of their ethos as opposed to pure financial gain/success. Could they change their approach?
  17. Oct 30, 2017
    #17

    GrandJury Banned

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    As long as immediate success is all that matters I don’t see why clubs would change their attitude to giving youth a chance.
  18. Oct 30, 2017
    #18

    red_devil83 Banned

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    Just strip them of all their titles and players and relegate them to the Beezer Homes league. Oh and ban sovereign wealth from football while we're at it.
  19. Oct 30, 2017
    #19

    TheReligion Abusive

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    Very poor post
  20. Oct 30, 2017
    #20

    Ramshock CAF Pilib De Brún Translator

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    I think United have to take some responsibility for City hoovering up so much local talent. We knew they were investing in youth and we slept anyway and we are only now trying to catch up. Chelsea is a football factory and any kid going there should by now know theres a very little chance of them making it into the first team setup so they only have themselves to blame.
  21. Oct 30, 2017
    #21

    dogwithabone Full Member

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    Quite simply if you’re good enough you’ll rise to the top.

    It’s madness to think there’s a Messi in waiting amongst these youth systems that will somehow get lost or not show through because he’s young and English.

    It’s like Loftus-Cheek, pundits moaned he wasn’t given game time. There’s a reason for that - not good enough.
  22. Oct 30, 2017
    #22

    United_We_Stand Full Member

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    The question is, why haven't we try to hoover up these talents the same way City and Chelsea did? We've got the money and the facilities, so why are we lagging behind them in this regard?

    Is our academy outdated and we're too proud to admit it?
  23. Oct 30, 2017
    #23

    Dr Baltar Full Member

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    They should place a limit on the amount of players each club can own at certain ages that aren't involved in the first team. If a club goes over the quota then the extra players become ineligible for any football at that club and cannot be loaned out either.
    Make it absolutely clear to players and their families that moving to clubs that stockpile young talent will result in no football.
    It would benefit football at all levels & the development of players from all countries.
  24. Oct 30, 2017
    #24

    Inter Yer Nan Full Member

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    I always thought it was pointless that City were bragging about how state of the art their facilities were and how great their youth system is but they basically have not had any interest in actually using the players for years now. Same with Chelsea too, but seems they don't get the good press that City does. Maybe City and to a degree Chelsea just try to hoover up this talent but not "risk" letting the kids develop so that it prevents other clubs from getting them?
  25. Oct 30, 2017
    #25

    red_devil83 Banned

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    Better than yours :lol:
  26. Oct 30, 2017
    #26

    adexkola Arsenal supporter

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    :lol:

    Yes. Soda/pop is literally poison. Adults should be free to buy whatever they want, but children shouldn't be fed that shit with public dollars.

    Hmmm. Purely from the concussion angle, I don't think futbol has the CTE phenomenon seen in gridiron football. So from that angle I don't care. However youth soccer should de-emphasize full 11 vs 11 games, and lean towards smaller sessions that focus on ball control, passing on the ground, dribbling and off the ball movement. So if the ban aids that, then I won't complain too much.

    And to your original post, parents and agents share some responsibility, but the clubs should be held accountable; they're morally more culpable, with the money and appeal to kids' emotions.
  27. Oct 30, 2017
    #27

    Womp idiot

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    Yes and no. The club is implementing changes to improve the youth facilities and recruitment iirc. We are seemingly behind those clubs though. That being said, we still have some top prospects of our own coming through, hopefully they get a chance. Given the fact that Mctomminay is getting some game time and we have players more talented than him coming up, I have high hopes.

    Back onto the topic, the only way you could fix this issue is by limiting the amount of loans a club can make and also increasing the required number of home grown players in the PL squad? It's a bit of a difficult topic. As good as Foden looks for example, I find it hard to see him ever being a regular at City. They've got too much money and already have too many stars.
  28. Oct 30, 2017
    #28

    tomaldinho1 Full Member

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    It's pretty simple but the richest clubs would kick up a fuss so no one stops them.

    1) impose a maximum number of loans on a club. Last yr Chelsea had 38 players on loan (source the guardian) which is obscene - make the emphasis on developing a player internally and not just buying highly rated youngsters and farming them out immediately.

    2) increase home ground quota for senior squads - I believe this is currently 8/25 needing to qualify as homegrown. Why not make it 10? A minor change but every little helps (source Asda)
  29. Oct 30, 2017
    #29

    BigDunc9 Full Member

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    I have been hearing about Chelsea having the best youth set up in the world for about 10 years now yet not one player that has come through there has gone on to be any good.
  30. Oct 31, 2017
    #30

    TheReligion Abusive

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    I can see you're a great addition to the forum. Sigh.
  31. Oct 31, 2017
    #31

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    There's a solution somewhere in there except it has to be based on the matchday squad. Otherwise you may prevent youngsters starting at all as they get kept on the bench to ensure that valuable 4th sub can be used.

    E.g. if we started Tuanzebe, McTominay and Rashford keeping Smalling, Carrick and Lingard on the bench (and one could argue it's a better option) you could be all out of viable options to sub on so, say, Carrick starts. Since you don't know where you may need the 4th sub then Smalling starts, etc.

    I'm not sure how that is any different from a minimum HG on the pitch Bosman-wise.

    Edit: actually, while it helps guarantee football for some, doesn't that exacerbate the stockpiling of young talent?
  32. Oct 31, 2017
    #32

    Stadjer Full Member

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    Even more reason to attract loads of teenagers..
  33. Oct 31, 2017
    #33

    TotalFootballOne Banned

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    Don't City have 4 English players of their starting 11?
  34. Oct 31, 2017
    #34

    Camilo Full Member

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    Nothing to do with city or chelsea, not their problem.

    If families want to send their kids there then that's their business. No one's forcing them.
  35. Oct 31, 2017
    #35

    tomaldinho1 Full Member

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    Exactly...although your comment is probably sarcastic you're ironically right because the higher percentage of total squad size that is HG, the higher the chance they will play.
  36. Oct 31, 2017
    #36

    KYcinco Banned

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    " English Talent " , I always laugh at the thought , forever an overrated nation when it comes to football.
  37. Oct 31, 2017
    #37

    11101 Full Member

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    Well that's just not true.
  38. Oct 31, 2017
    #38

    Ibi Dreams Full Member

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    Maybe true if you concede that these players may rise to the top but at different clubs. De Bruyne and Pogba being two recent examples of players who left because they weren't getting the time they deserved and then proved that they should have been given the chance.
  39. Oct 31, 2017
    #39

    UDontMessWith24 New Member

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    I don't know the intricacies of the rules so I may be wrong, but if the quota rule for English players is dropped, and Chelsea and City don't have to have any English players in their squad, wouldn't these players go elsewhere and actually play?
  40. Oct 31, 2017
    #40

    TheReligion Abusive

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    From their academy/youth system?