Closing the book on Messi's GOAT attempt

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by B20, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. Jul 11, 2018
    #1

    B20 HALA MADRID!

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    I've always had a lot of time for Messi and think he's made a genuine and close call attempt at becoming the greatest player of all time. Breaking the alltime scoring record, being so complete as he is as an attacker, the total package. I've even been kind of willing him to do it, simply because I'd like to see it done.

    This World Cup has settled the question for me though - It was a fine challenge, but Diego retains his position as the greatest of all time. It's not so much that Messi needs to win a World Cup to be the greatest - feck the anal fisting retentive wikipedophiles who think best player debates can be measured in an excel sheet.

    But how can he be so fecking lazy? He averaged 7km per game. Normal walking pace takes you 7.5 kilometers over 90 minutes. Same as at the last World Cup. Been doing the same for years really. This is not just a "the best don't need to run" thing - this is abnormally low - He's probably lowest for distance covered among outfield players ffs. C.Ronaldo has a better excuse - He's hanging on the shoulder of the last defender, conserving his energy for every high intensity sprint that may come his way. And is like 87 by now.

    That's not Messi. He's the one dropping deep and getting involved in play, wanting the ball (despite walking or standing for 80% of the time, only Mascherano made more passes for argentina). He could perhaps have gone for the elderly statesman type playmaker performance a la Pirlo or Zidane, but he didn't do that well either. Far too often, he was jogging with the ball and slowing down play waiting to see if the miracle moment was on. And he was never willing to make the runs to get into good positions to receive the ball either. Never moving to solve problems for his team mates. No dynamism at all in his play. He is practically a set piece player - if he happens to get the ball in the right positions and the other players on the pitch are positioned right, he can make something happen. Outside of those moments, forget about it.

    I just don't get it. Your last big chance at a World Cup. The team is in crisis. The whole nation is waiting for Messi to make something happen - and so was Messi apparently. Walking around, waiting for the right ball to land at his feet, but never willing to make the run to be there.

    Walk on by, Lionel. The best don't wait for the right moment, they make it happen.
  2. Jul 11, 2018
    #2

    RepardReece New Member

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    Doesn't run as much for Barca now either, still gets just under 50 goals a season though. He's not preserved himself as well as Ronaldo has, so he doesn't run as often, with Barca it works because no matter what the players can get the ball to him. But Argentina were just terrible this World Cup, 1man wasn't going to change that. Oh and he can't just sit in the box wait for a cross and head it in like Ronaldo because he isn't tall. If Ronaldo was as small as Messi he'd have been in the same position this year.

    Still the best player to Grace this game imo. Especially around 2012, that year was the best any player could ever have.
  3. Jul 11, 2018
    #3

    altodevil86 Full Member

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    Maybe for resume, but peak Messi (2009-2013) is still the best player I've ever watched.
  4. Jul 11, 2018
    #4

    11101 Full Member

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    Sums my feelings up too. To be in the conversation for best player of all time you have to be able to perform in less than ideal circumstances. Messi cannot do that.
  5. Jul 11, 2018
    #5

    Rado_N Yaaas Broncos!

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    I need popcorn.
  6. Jul 11, 2018
    #6

    MadMike Full Member

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    He can't do it on a cold night in Stoke
  7. Jul 11, 2018
    #7

    Renegade New Member

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    Wasn’t the whole qualification to the WC itself less than ideal for Argentina?
  8. Jul 11, 2018
    #8

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    I think someone should close the thread on this wum attempt.
  9. Jul 11, 2018
    #9

    acnumber9 Full Member

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    I like how it starts with a rant about judging players on stats and then becomes a rant about average distance covered.
  10. Jul 11, 2018
    #10

    Massive Spanner Thinks Geoff Shreeves has one

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    I would agree with that.

    Saying that, I've never properly see Pele, Maradona etc. so I can only go by their achievements and it does seem like they simply achieved more than Messi on the biggest stage, Maradona especially seemed to pretty much drag Argentina to the WC.
  11. Jul 11, 2018
    #11

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    There's less than ideal and there's the shambles of Argentina players, coaches and their FA.

    Also, don't forget that the only reason they even qualified was him dragging them there yet again in the final game of qualification when they were away at a horrible place to go and were 1 nil down and he scored a fantastic hattrick to win and get them through.

    He did the same in the last WC when they got to the Final.

    Let's just end this here shall we.
  12. Jul 11, 2018
    #12

    B20 HALA MADRID!

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    This is where Maradona has it for me. He wouldn't just be leading by example. He'd be making his team mates better at the same time.

    I think Messi is probably that extra bit more talented than Maradona was - Can pull it off more regularly. But I know who I'd pick for one game winner takes all showdown, all other things being equal. Diego made the game happen.
  13. Jul 11, 2018
    #13

    B20 HALA MADRID!

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    No doubt argentina would be nowhere without him. He's probably still the best player in the world.

    They'd be better with a Maradona at his peak in that team instead though.
  14. Jul 11, 2018
    #14

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

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    Another thread where people talk about Football like it is 1 on 11 instead of 11 on 11.
  15. Jul 11, 2018
    #15

    horsechoker Sailor vee, this is a right off.

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    Problem for Messi is he didn't cheat enough or get away with it enough.
  16. Jul 11, 2018
    #16

    BarstoolProphet Full Member

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    It really annoys me aswell, it's like he can't really be arsed anymore. Especially when you notice that when he actually make runs, something always happens. He's 31 though and has had one helluva career.


    Still the best player I've ever seen. Way better than Maradona, despite not dragging his country to a WC triumph or looking half-arsed during the latter stages of his career.
  17. Jul 11, 2018
    #17

    B20 HALA MADRID!

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    in what way? I am explicitly not looking at results here - I am just talking about Messi's own performance and what he could have done better and comparing it to the one player who might be his equal on talent and arguing that he added something more to the mix with his temperament and will.
  18. Jul 11, 2018
    #18

    Rob Full Member

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    This. And by a long distance, I might add.
  19. Jul 11, 2018
    #19

    2plus2is4 New Member

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    I think it's time for a change. He should take his Barca-Shirt off and put a PL-shirt on. Messi vs Cristiano is over. Barca vs Real is boring, so please come to the Premier League and show the world why you should be considered as the greatest of all time.
  20. Jul 11, 2018
    #20

    Sylar Full Member

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    Peak Ronaldinho was my fav player to watch. Just a shame it was too short (and it was at another club).

    I think Messi is fantastic and defo up for GOAT discussion due to the number of years, and what hes done. His peak was years ago (but hes so good that his past-peak is still better than 99% of players). It does seem like the last few years he seems to have been fed up of players with him (but that might not be the case)

    Fair play to Ronaldo, he has evolved to make sure he gets the best out of himself when it matters (eg after Jan). I think this is why Madrid can win the CL in consecutive years and not the league. Ronaldo being level with Messi on Ballon d'Or is a testament to how hes looked after himself and still doing it at his age. (which is only 2 years older than Messi anyway).

    Strangely I do wonder if Argentina become a better 'team' now without Messi (same way Sweden look a better 'team' without Zlatan). But then will miss the magic here and there.
  21. Jul 11, 2018
    #21

    groovyalbert Full Member

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    I'll bite.

    Nonsense.

    Yes, Maradona won World Cup which eclipses Messi's achievements on the international stage, but just look at their club honours. It's not close. Maradona won, what? 2 league title with Napoli and a UEFA cup. 2 domestic cups alongside these and that's your lot. In a career that spanned over 20 years. That's hardly impressive for a player of his ability.

    There's no point even writing what Messi has won at club level.

    In terms of their footballing abilities, they're similar - but Messi is a far more clinical finisher, and a better passer, and has developed his game far more expertly than Maradona did. Add to that all the misdemeanours which followed Maradona everywhere, I'm sorry - but Messi is miles ahead of Maradona. A statistical comparison between them hardly helps Maradona's case either.
  22. Jul 11, 2018
    #22

    OnlyTwoDaSilvas Gullible

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    "wikipedophile"? Is that something we're saying now? We probably shouldn't.
  23. Jul 11, 2018
    #23

    11101 Full Member

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    It wasn't like he only played in the final game of qualification. He was as much the reason they were in that situation as the others.

    As for the 2014 World Cup its inevitable people look back and say he got them to the final. He did absolutely nothing in the knockout stages.

    In less than ideal situations you look to a player like Maradona and see what happened when he had an even worse Argentina side, or a Napoli side that was mid table cannon fodder before he arrived. They won, and he was the reason they won. Messi doesn't seem to have that last percentage of ability to do that.
  24. Jul 11, 2018
    #24

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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  25. Jul 11, 2018
    #25

    groovyalbert Full Member

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    Slams people for using statistics to support their case... goes on to do the same thing the next paragraph. :lol:
  26. Jul 11, 2018
    #26

    B20 HALA MADRID!

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    :p

    Feck that then. The point is, everyone can see he is a lazy git who strolls around the pitch with nothing to show for it too often. Why didn't he make more runs off the ball? The lack of intensity in his game, in games where it was sorely needed, was shocking. I cant believe it is lack of fitness when we are in such low numbers. Any regular joe at his age who jogs a few times a week could match his output. It's genuinely puzzling to me that he didn't try harder.
  27. Jul 11, 2018
    #27

    horsechoker Sailor vee, this is a right off.

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  28. Jul 11, 2018
    #28

    RedRonaldo Full Member

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    I don’t think it is fair to make anything conclusive. Yes Messi couldn’t carry his team (outside of his comfort zone) to success like Maradona, but Maradona couldn’t maintain same level of consistency and success at the highest level like Messi throughout his club career.
  29. Jul 11, 2018
    #29

    MS4 New Member

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    Its getting obvious that Messi is the goat when reasons like "he only runs X km/game" are used to determine he is not
  30. Jul 11, 2018
    #30

    sincher "I will cry if Rooney leaves"

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    To me, Messi's career stats are exactly why he is in the discussion and why from my perspective he is clearly a greater player than Maradona. A huge amount of World Cup success comes down to luck. And not to mention cheating, I mean in the world of VAR Maradona's handball goal is disallowed, he is booked or sent off, and history looks quite different.

    I don't know if Messi is greater than Pele though. He is the best player I have seen. Ronaldo is a close second.
  31. Jul 11, 2018
    #31

    Treble Full Member

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    Maradona 86 remains the peak in the history of football regarding individual performances.
  32. Jul 11, 2018
    #32

    ROFLUTION Full Member

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    The OP has some fair points, but watching Messi through this small window is not enough to give the whole picture.

    To me, there are now so little margins holding Messi v Ronaldo that it's 50/50.

    I somehow can't make myself put Maradona as GOAT as he was tested positive for Ephedrine. He was truly unique and possessed skills that none other will ever get, but he was still tested positive - and Ronaldo and Messi hasn't been. (Not buying the different times, better doping argument)
  33. Jul 11, 2018
    #33

    Ady87 Full Member

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    I went to see Barcelona vs Eibar a few years ago. We couldn't believe how little Messi moved. He barely left the centre circle for 5+ mins at one point in the game.
  34. Jul 11, 2018
    #34

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt Scouse Lover

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    His work rate is an embarrassment.
  35. Jul 11, 2018
    #35

    sincher "I will cry if Rooney leaves"

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    Oh yeah, really embarrassing. I bet some days he can barely get out of bed because he didn't run around enough in the last match.
  36. Jul 11, 2018
    #36

    BBer13 Full Member

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    don't no much about previous tournaments with Argentina and Messi because i didn't watch them that closely but this tournament it would have took an unbelievable effort to pull that bunch of players through. Individually they have a fair amount of quality but as a team they don't function anywhere near well enough. The times we have seen a player carry his team, the team he is carrying can at least do the basic's right and at least get the ball to there star man in dangerous areas. Argentina for the most part played without much of a midfield and struggled to connect defence to attack, Messi was easy to isolate and take out of the game because the rest of the team was so poor in getting the ball to him in the right areas of the pitch. Maybe he could have ran more but ultimately it would have made little difference, he would have more than likely ended up further away from goal with fewer players supporting him when he did get the ball. Ronaldo for Portugal is definitely there star player, and has in the past carried them but the team around him are good enough to supply him with balls in to the box where he is most dangerous. I think Messi will go down as one of the GOAT, he isn't at a level that you can definitively say he is the best ever but when he is at his best he is in the top 3 bracket in my opinion, the fact he never conquered another league or won a international tournament will be held against him i feel but those who watched him will agree is is one of the greats.
  37. Jul 11, 2018
    #37

    Ban Full Member

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    Doesn't run much. Book closed.
    Sounds legit.
  38. Jul 11, 2018
    #38

    Rozay Not good at posting fixture lists

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  39. Jul 11, 2018
    #39

    diarm Full Member

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    I don't really understand this common comment about Argrentina having shite players. They have absolutely class players. I'd probably put their squad in the top 5 of world football.

    Yes their coach might be shite but no squad with Messi, Aguero, Higuain, Icardi, Dybala, Di Maria, Banega, Mascherano, Biglia, Pastore etc can be called shite.

    Their defence is a bit suspect alright but we're about to watch a World Cup semi final with Dejan Lovren and John Stones in it. I think Messi is outrageously good but the argument that Maradona played in a more talented Argentina side is nonsense - this squad was more than capable of reaching the latter stages of this World Cup.
  40. Jul 11, 2018
    #40

    B20 HALA MADRID!

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    When you have two players of similar ability and one of them has the drive, stamina and willpower to exert himself on a game as much and as frequently as possible - and the other one picks his moments to break into a jog - then yes, that settles it for me.

    It's not like Maradona ran around like a headless chicken. He made it count.

    Messi simply does not have the same ability to change a game going against him or where the team is not on song. Strangely, that lack seems to be a matter of inclination from him.