Closing the book on Messi's GOAT attempt

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by B20, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. Jul 11, 2018

    Sayros Full Member

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    Lionel Messi is the best player of all-time, he's just not the greatest because he doesn't just have no World Cup/Copa America, but he also hasn't had any goal-scoring impact in World Cup knockout games (neither has C. Ronaldo for that matter).
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  2. Jul 11, 2018

    Revan Assumptionman

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    Not necessarily disagreeing with your post, I think that if you have to take a player for a game, it is hard to choose anyone but Maradona. What I disagreed was that Maradona winning the league with Napoli trumps everything Messi did in club level. Because if you make that argument, then you can say the same about Mahrez or Diego Costa, or those Verona superstars whose names I have forgotten and so on.

    For what is worth, I have Pele first, Ronaldo and Messi pretty much on par behind him, and then Maradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano and Beckenbauer. I think that Di Stefano was particularly unfortunate that he didn't play in World Cups, otherwise it is quite possible that he would have been No. 1.

    Regardless, people won't ever agree on these things, that is the beauty of it. And for almost every argument, you can find a counter-argument (bar possibly in Pele's case who has the best achievements by being the best player at world's top club and winning 2 - technically 3 - World Cups).
  3. Jul 11, 2018

    SteveW Full Member

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    Maradona never won the European Cup. Messi is the GOAT
  4. Jul 11, 2018

    Vilev Banned

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    I don't get why people so sure that Maradona is the greatest player in football. That's just seems stupid.
    His international career achievement is one WC. Just one. And not for a second-rate football country either. One of the top football nations, that won WC just before him. Anyway there literally a lot of football players that managed to win WC one time.
    In his club career the guy has just two Serie A titles with Napoli, plus UEFA cup and some minor stuff. He did not do anything special with Barcelona. Of course Napoli titles were a major break-through for a team and are rightly called outstanding achievement. But is it one-of-a-kind sort of thing, a mark of truly greatest player? I doubt it. In fact think to suggest that something like that never happened is simply stupid. Actually quite a lot teams minor teams with a couple of stars managed to win titles major title like national and champions leagues.
    Ultimately, while he was a great player, he actually achieved a quite modest results in terms of titles.
  5. Jul 11, 2018

    B20 HALA MADRID!

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    From watching him play.
  6. Jul 11, 2018

    11101 Full Member

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    Mahrez did it once, in a team with some good (Vardy) or great (Kante) players, in a transition period for the league.

    Napoli were almost relegated the year before Maradona joined. They then won it twice and came second twice, in an era with a Milan side as good as any in history. When he left, the next season they were back to mid table and have been there or relegation threatened ever since. It's hard to overstate how big of an impact he had on that team.
  7. Jul 11, 2018

    Revan Assumptionman

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    Napoli had a far better team than Leicester though. I know that Maradona was mythicized (same happen with every great player though) but Gazetta dello Sport didn't even give the highest grade to Maradona from all Napoli players in their first title win. 30 years later, apparently he dragged a shit team to the league title.

    Change Mahrez name to Kante and you see how Leicester went from midtable to title to midtable with and without Kante. All hail Kante, the true GOAT.
  8. Jul 11, 2018

    adexkola Arsenal supporter

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  9. Jul 11, 2018

    SteveW Full Member

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    This illustrates exactly why the Messi never won the WC argument is so fecking stupid. The WC while important is just a snippet of a players career. It can work out or not work out. Even in this WC he had two assist in the game that knocked them out. Was he expected to stop France from scoring also? It's ridiculous to dismiss an entire career based on a few games. Why not base it on club achievements considering they make up the bulk of a players career?
  10. Jul 11, 2018

    BalanceUnAutreJoint New Member

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    The overvaluation of winning or not winning the WC when defining a player's career still shocks me.

    Will Giroud be a better player than Suarez,Lewandowski,Aguero if he wins the WC?
    Will Pogba have had a better year than Kroos or Modric if he wins the WC?
    Is Lloris a better GK than De Gea because he massively outperformed him in the WC?

    It is the biggest event because of prestige, but It's still a one month tournament every 4 years.

    A decade of world class seasons means more than a WC win.
  11. Jul 11, 2018

    VBI Full Member

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    Wait until the end of his career, then these sorts of questions can be completely evaluated to some accuracy.

    For what it's worth, given that he had to take many weeks of invasive treatments as a kid just to develop a normal sized body, I wouldn't be hugely surprised if he doesn't play on too much longer. Some players are genetically gifted athletes and can extend a career long past the generally accepted "end" of 33-35. Messi might be in the other category. Creative/forward players in particular after years of twisting, turning, getting kicked, etc, it can take it out of you.
  12. Jul 11, 2018

    Skills Snitch

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    The chapter has been closed since 2011. He's been the GOAT since then.
  13. Jul 11, 2018

    Vilev Banned

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    Was that any better than Best, Cruyff, Pele, Garrincha, Zidane, Platini, Messi, Ronaldo, Iniesta? And you can easily add around 20 names or so, i'm just tired typing. Surely not.
  14. Jul 11, 2018

    Eddy_JukeZ Full Member

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    'Closed' for now, but the last 2 times he failed to perform at the WC, he followed it up with 2 of his best seasons on club level.

    Wouldn't be surprised to see a repeat.
  15. Jul 11, 2018

    Vilev Banned

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    I don't think it's entirely stupid. The thing with WC is that Messi never actually played well there. Even this WC, last one, he showed decent level, good one. But was he back in 14 or now even close to being the best in world? Obv not.

    The thing with Messi and WC is also the fact that while Maradona had few titles, Messi had them only in Barcelona. In a top cup, that won CL without him. He maybe was in the squad, but hardly feature, back when Ronnie was running the show. So the question become this, is Messi actually capable of big wins outside Barcelona. And right now the answer is no. And that is a huge, huge minus to have when talking about being absolute best.
    That is actually a point in favor Ronaldo, while MU is also a top club of course, still he actually won different leagues, won CL with different teams.
  16. Jul 11, 2018

    Dave_fan New Member

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    yeah...if he worked his socks off and ran 4 more Kilometers, Argentina would have conceded only 2 goals and would have eliminated France.
  17. Jul 11, 2018

    SteveW Full Member

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    Messi won player of the tournament in 2014.

    Not sure what you're trying to say in the bolded part. I seem to remember him scoring in both the 2009 and 2011 finals against us. Was this during this period where he was a squad player and Ronnie was supposedly running the show?

    Your huge minus is that he hasn't won anything with another club. He's supposed to have changed club just to prove a point? That's idiotic.

    Also leave Ronnie out of this debate. Great player but not a GOAT contender.
  18. Jul 11, 2018

    RepardReece New Member

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    Is saying especially basing it on one year? No. I was simply stating that just enhanced his argument. Messi has scored more and assisted more than Ronaldo for more years regardless. Plus he plays deeper. For years and years Messi could create a goal from absolutely nothing. He's more complete than Ronaldo.
  19. Jul 12, 2018

    Vilev Banned

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    That's hardly an argument. This thing always awarded to god knows who.
    The fact is that Messi looked like good player, but definitely not top back there. Just remember how many goals Argentina scored in play-off. It was his real chance to be star of WC, but he did not perform as he could have.
    I am talking about Barcelona's first CL win in this century, the one with Ronnie, Eto, against Arsenal, as i remember Messi was in the squad for that and probably even have that CL medal. Yep, just looked, 6 games, listed as his title, the 05-06 one.
    So my point is that without Messi, well "almost" without him Barcelona was perfectly capable of CL win and domestic title.
    What is "Ronnie" that? I called Ronaldinho a "Ronnie" (cause he run the show at Barca at 2006). As for Ronaldo, he is as much a contender as is Messi, what he achieved, who he plays, i don't think he is any worse.
  20. Jul 12, 2018

    De Portago Full Member

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    He tore apart Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, and you might argue they were their toughest opponent in that CL run. Then he injured his thigh IIRC, and was barely fit for the CL final where he was left on the bench.
  21. Jul 12, 2018

    Giggs86 Full Member

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    How can he be the GOAT if he's not even the greatest Argentinian player of all time?
  22. Jul 12, 2018

    Eddy_JukeZ Full Member

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    You say it like it's a fact.

    You can argue for Messi being better than Maradona, just like you can vice versa.
  23. Jul 12, 2018

    RedRonaldo Full Member

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    I would add a few more:

    Overall achievement - Pele
    Dragging subpar team to greatness - Maradona
    Goals and stats - Pele, Ronaldo, Messi
    Performing at multiple stages - Maradona, Ronaldo
    Peak - Maradona, Messi
    Consistency - Messi, Ronaldo, Pele?
    Longevity at very top - Ronaldo, Messi?
    Winning at every level - Ronaldo (England, Spain, CL, International, Italy?)
    Footballing - Maradona, Messi (subjective)
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  24. Jul 12, 2018

    Crashoutcassius Full Member

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    Messi is so far ahead of anyone else. I say this as a Madrid fan, someone that finds tiki taka very boring and someone that believes barce under pep were a probably doping
  25. Jul 12, 2018

    RedRonaldo Full Member

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    Strange statement. Barca hasn’t been doing well in CL for quite a number of years, while Real Madrid just loss their GOAT in CL. I think CL will be quite open up in next few years, with Real, Barca, PSG, City and Juventus having equal chance of winning it.
  26. Jul 12, 2018

    RedRonaldo Full Member

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    Because the manner of him winning it is dream of every footballer - 5 goals and 5 assists (directly involved in 10 goals out of 13 for Argentina), most successful dribble (3 times more than others), scored the goal of century, leading his team to WC glory. It’s just equally perfect and eye-catching.

    I wouldn’t say his club career is anywhere as good as Messi or Ronaldo. Not to mention his consistency and longetivity being far below their level too. (Personally I think there’s country mile difference of greatest when someone who has 10 worldclass season vs someone who only has 3)

    But when someone achieved what he did in WC, people will remember it forever.

    And you’ve also got to give it to him, the way he carry his team (underdogs) to glory (both Argentina and Napoli) is unrivaled in football history.

    But i definitely wouldn’t rank him above Pele, Ronaldo or Messi in GOAT, mainly due to his lack of consistency and longetivity. There’s one part of his career which is goat brilliant (WC 86, 2 seasons at Napoli), but there’s another part of his career which is hugely disappointing (Barca years, drug scandal in Argentina and late years in Napoli, and his 30’s)
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  27. Jul 12, 2018

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    neither he nor CR7 will ever be the greatest. That chapter is done now
  28. Jul 12, 2018

    Daysleeper New Member

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    Messi is the GOAT

    Twenty years from now people will still see that way
  29. Jul 12, 2018

    Daysleeper New Member

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    Modric still plays for Madrid and he’s the best midfielder in the world.

    Ronaldo did zilch in the semi finals
    And final of CL and they still won. Plus with all the money they are going to spend this summer I think they’ll be fine.

    Even if Ronaldo stayed I dont think Madrid would’ve won 4 straight, hey we’re running on fumes, Zidane knew it too.
  30. Jul 12, 2018

    RedRonaldo Full Member

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    Err Ronaldo did score over 70% of goals for Real in CL, and was top goal scorer of the competition in past 6 years? Not to mention he has 4 Ballon D’or years at Real. Surely they need someone to fill this big gap?
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  31. Jul 12, 2018

    Giggs86 Full Member

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    Obviously it can't be a fact because everyone has their own opinion. Since I didn't see Maradona live, I base my opinions on video footage and mainly on the opinions of those who got to see Maradona back in the day. Every Argentinian I've met consider Maradona to be the greatest ever, so for me that counts for something.
  32. Jul 12, 2018

    CA_vampire Full Member

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    GOAT:

    Pelé began playing for Santos at age 15 and the Brazil national team at 16. During his international career, he won three FIFA World Cups: 1958, 1962 and 1970, being the only player ever to do so. Pelé is the all-time leading goalscorer for Brazil with 77 goals in 92 games.


    1958 World Cup (age 17)

    Pelé arrived in Sweden sidelined by a knee injury but on his return from the treatment room, his colleagues stood together and insisted upon his selection.[40] His first match was against the USSR in the third match of the first round of the 1958 FIFA World Cup, where he gave the assist to Vavá's second goal.[41] He was the youngest player of that tournament, and at the time the youngest ever to play in the World Cup.[note 2][38] Against France in the semifinal, Brazil was leading 2–1 at halftime, and then Pelé scored a hat-trick, becoming the youngest in World Cup history to do so.[43]

    On 29 June 1958, Pelé became the youngest player to play in a World Cup final match at 17 years and 249 days. He scored two goals in that final as Brazil beat Sweden 5–2 in Stockholm, the capital. His first goal where he flicked the ball over a defender before volleying into the corner of the net, was selected as one of the best goals in the history of the World Cup.[44] Following Pelé's second goal, Swedish player Sigvard Parling would later comment; "When Pelé scored the fifth goal in that Final, I have to be honest and say I felt like applauding".[45] When the match ended, Pelé passed out on the field, and was revived by Garrincha.[46] He then recovered, and was compelled by the victory to weep as he was being congratulated by his teammates. He finished the tournament with six goals in four matches played, tied for second place, behind record-breaker Just Fontaine, and was named best young player of the tournament.[47]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelé



    Here is a miss! Can you imagine Harry Kane ever doing this?

  33. Jul 12, 2018

    B20 HALA MADRID!

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    Best, Cruyff, Pele and Garrincha were before my time - I don't think I can really appreciate them from watching videos after their period.

    But of the others, Maradona is clearly a level above the likes of Zidane, Platini and Iniesta. Messi and Fat Ronaldo on his day are the only other two I've seen who have that "he does what the best players in the world can only dream of" level of ability as Maradona had, even if I think fat Ronaldo is a bit overly mythologized.
  34. Jul 12, 2018

    MiceOnMeth New Member

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    World Cup performances from a single player mean diddly to me in judging a player as there are to many variables at play so i dont give a feck if Messi hasnt done it for Argentina hes still the best ever to me (and by quite a margin too).
  35. Jul 12, 2018

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    It literally has nothing to do with luck, standing up in the biggest games and providing some of the greatest moments is what separates boys from men. Pele did it all the time, Maradona did it all the time, feckin Cristiano Ronaldo has done it more often than Messi has. It is by far the most important parameter to get a hang of what a player's all about. Not another 10000 goals vs Getafe etc will ever measure anywhere near a World Cup final moment of pure inspiration.
  36. Jul 12, 2018

    B20 HALA MADRID!

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    Players also create their own luck to some extent. Maradona certainly did. Messi walking round the pitch certainly did not.

    For me, the goat is simply the player who reached the highest peak of all,, over a period of time long enough that it was not a blib or run of confidence.

    If longevity was so important, Giggs could be in a conversation with Ronaldinho. The latter is clearly in a different pantheon.
  37. Jul 12, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

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    All this glorification aside, it should be clear that there hasn't been such thing as one player single handedly carrying a team to a great trophy. It is a phrase that gets used if the difference in quality of a star player and its team is extremely obvious but it doesn't change the fact that football is eleven vs eleven and the influence of the individual is limited.

    Yes, Maradona was the absolute standout player in the WC 86 but to say he did it alone is simply exaggeration. He wouldn't have won it with the devastating Argentina side of this WC. Argentina produced some of the biggest and funniest blunders of the WC 2018, as a neutral you sometimes had to laugh at how bad they were and what mistakes they made. Maradona's side was probably not strikingly good but it wasn't strikingly bad, either. He had no Caballero assisting Rebic in the most embarassing fashion and all this stuff, his team at least did their duty and at least put him in the position to win the games for them. You can hardly say that about Messi's Argentina this year. You can say it about Argentina 2014 and it was very, very close that year.
  38. Jul 12, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

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    "That is what separates boys from men" - wow, that's some cringeworthy stuff.

    Five years ago, Ronaldo was considered the fraud unable to perform on the big stage because he wouldn't turn up in the big games. Was he a different guy back then? No, he wasn't, he simply had a worse team around him that made it harder for him to shine. Now he has the luxury to hide for the last five matches in the CL and still win the title. Of course that makes him such a manly man that doesn't shy away when the going gets tough, I guess.
  39. Jul 12, 2018

    B20 HALA MADRID!

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    Maradona's Argentina side was functional and that was about it - He is the only World Cup winner who didn't have any other team mates named in the team of the tournament.

    Which is basically the story of his career. Guys like Zidane, Messi and Platini had marvelous players to back them up. They were the crown jewels in great sides. Maradona, for club and country, generally found himself having to be Roy of the Rovers - The perception being that if you stopped Maradona, you stopped the team. I don't think anyone has ever been so singled out for man-marking as Maradona. That he should be the most fouled player ever was practically inevitable.

    I don't think such a thing could happen today where the big teams scoop up the biggest players being akin to natural law. The closest equivalent I can think of is if Messi had signed for Newcastle United in 2007.

    Not that this is a mark against the likes of Messi, Zidane et al. But it's something to factor in.
  40. Jul 12, 2018

    RedRonaldo Full Member

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    Longevity at what level? At world class best player of the world level? Or just at average Premierleague first teamer level? That’s massive huge difference the two.

    I don’t get it when people try to downplay the longevity of Ronaldo and Messi, when in fact the longetivity they have are all at world class Ballon D’or winner/contender level.

    Players like Maradona and Ronaldinho only has around 2-3 years playing at Ballon D’or winner/contender level, whereas Ronaldo and Messi, we are taking about 11+ years.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018