[Controversial] Do World Class forwards truly give a damn about trophies?

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by UnrelatedPsuedo, Feb 8, 2018.

  1. Feb 8, 2018
    #1

    UnrelatedPsuedo I pity the poor fool who stinks like I do!

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    It may be a slightly clickbaity title but I made the point to a mate at the pub this evening when discussing Kane.

    Some of the truly best centre forwards the world has ever seen, seem to have far less regard for trophies than you'd expect.

    It started as a discussion as to why Kane may prefer goals and adulation above trophies, akin to Shearer.

    Then we riffed through van Nistlerooy, Batistuta, Greaves, Romario, Shearer, Crespo.

    There's certainly not anything definitive there, but definitely something indicative. Most players out there would probably name trophies as their goal. But I think there's certainly a case to be had that many forwards could potentially enjoy scoring goals more than they do lifting a trophy aloft.

    Would we say it's more a case of some great forwards not quite being in the right club at the right time, or having a genuine interest in goals above all else?
  2. Feb 8, 2018
    #2

    Kostur Full Member

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    [Contraversial staetment]
  3. Feb 8, 2018
    #3

    The Man Himself asked for a tagline change and all I got was this.

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  4. Feb 8, 2018
    #4

    Nevilles.Wear.Prada Full Member

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  5. Feb 8, 2018
    #5

    ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg Full Member

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    May be simpler than that, many of those players prioritised staying/ going to a club they loved, showing a great deal of loyalty to their club rather than go somewhere to guarantee a medal. Shearer, Batistuta, Kane and Greaves fall into that category.
  6. Feb 8, 2018
    #6

    Lord SInister Full Member

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    Romario is a winner, and does not deserves to be named among those losers.
  7. Feb 8, 2018
    #7

    Cassady Supports Liverpool, Not Accrington Stanley

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    He didnt want to go apparantly. He was pushed out by Houllier and Thompson.
  8. Feb 8, 2018
    #8

    Raees Boing Boing Baggies

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    Didn't Ruud, Crespo and Romario win several titles at their respective clubs. Strange hypothesis and certainly not backed up by choosing these guys.
  9. Feb 8, 2018
    #9

    DWelbz19 Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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  10. Feb 8, 2018
    #10

    Robbie Boy Full Member

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  11. Feb 8, 2018
    #11

    Ian Reus Ended 14 years of Grand National sweepstakes

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    That might be true of him. Wasn't there a story that he never liked football outside of playing? He basically didn't watch any when he was in his own time.
  12. Feb 8, 2018
    #12

    Ish Lights on for Luke

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    I don't think this is entirely correct, because surely we can compile lists similar like the OP for midfielders, defenders etc.? (Gerrard, Totti, de Rossi springs to mind - though the latter had a fair bit of success with their NT).

    i.e. I think you get some extremely loyal players. It may become less likely in this day and age though.

    Or maybe I'm wrong.
  13. Feb 8, 2018
    #13

    Irish Jet Full Member

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    Strange that you would specify a position. I think CF’s generally love glory in whatever form - Scoring goals brings that out but the more important, the more significant the better the feeling.

    All players are different though and I don’t think position is hugely important in what motivates the individual.
  14. Feb 8, 2018
    #14

    Dancfc Full Member

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    There's a lot of people that prefer to be big fish in not so big pond but thats hardly just strikers there's a select number of player in every position (Gerrard the prime example from midfield). Even going to managers you could even argue Simeone for this logic, in 2014 his stock was Jose 2004 level, 4 years, no trophy's and increasingly more defensive tactics later, he's not a hot property anymore.
  15. Feb 8, 2018
    #15

    Annihilate Now! ...or later, I'm not fussy Scout

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    [Serious] I imagine most players are care about winning/being the best, as it's probably that sort of drive that led them to become footballers in the first place...[jokingly] apart from Reserve goalkeepers, am I right? [Apologetic] Sorry.
  16. Feb 8, 2018
    #16

    Sassy Colin Death or the gladioli!

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  17. Feb 8, 2018
    #17

    12OunceEpilogue Full Member

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    Maybe you could argue the unsurpassed adulation of being the man banging the goals in could encourage a CF, more than any other type of player, to stay at a club they love rather than chase trophies. Shearer, Batistuta and Le Tissier (not a CF I know) are all on the record describing their love for their clubs ahead of their love for trophies, and though some talk of cowardice and a 'big fish, small pond' mentality I could fully understand how the joy of being revered by the fans you truly love not just as a goalscorer but the goalscorer could be hugely appealing.
  18. Feb 8, 2018
    #18

    Siorac Full Member

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    Which isn't very surprising, really. I certainly don't do my job in my free time. I imagine quite a few players get sick of football every once in a while.
  19. Feb 8, 2018
    #19

    arthurka Full Member

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    Shearer could have both more goals and trophies if he had signed for us... So you could say that he could´ve had the cake and eaten it..
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  20. Feb 8, 2018
    #20

    Revan Assumptionman

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    It is probably a coincidence more than anything else. The fact that there are so many great attacking players without many trophies, is probably because there are so many great attacking players in the first place. In any list of top players, the majority of them are strikers or attacking midfielders, so I guess it is more likely that there will be many top strikers not having won some trophies rather than other positions.

    It also needs to be said that some of them actually chased trophies. Luis Ronaldo for example who has won a single big trophy (league in Spain in 2003) actually played for both Milan clubs, Barca, Real and PSV. Batistuta won a trophy only after he left Viola to join Roma. Crespo played for clubs which had every chance to win trophies. Romario played for Barcelona. Even the great Jimmy Greaves actually joined Milano at his peak.
  21. Feb 8, 2018
    #21

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    If you're banging in goals every week I can definitely see why winning trophies might matter less to you than a hard-working defensive midfielder.
  22. Feb 8, 2018
    #22

    Zlatattack Full Member

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    I don't think it's true. The best centre forwards care about goals, because goals lead to victory and that leads to trophies. You'll get the odd case like Shearer who wanted to hang around at Newcastle rather than play at the top level, but 9 out of 10 care about trophies. That doesn't mean they'll sacrifice themselves and their goalscoring for trophies - there aren't many Drogba style strikers in the world.
  23. Feb 8, 2018
    #23

    Robbie Boy Full Member

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  24. Feb 8, 2018
    #24

    TheReligion Abusive

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    Kevin Phillips didn't win much and for me was one of the best natural finishers the league has ever seen.
  25. Feb 8, 2018
    #25

    lysglimt Full Member

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    To answer your question with another question. Have you ever seen a striker celebrate madly after scoring a consolation goal 2 minutes before the end in a 1-5 defeat ? I haven't - which sort of answers your questions.

    Strikers love scoring goals -but everyone loves trophies.
  26. Feb 8, 2018
    #26

    adexkola Arsenal supporter Verified Moaner City Lover

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    Most players don't obsess about trophies the way fans do.
  27. Feb 8, 2018
    #27

    André Dominguez Full Member

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    You are forgetting the basics. Usually strikers/forwards/wingers have a big bonus per each goal scored in their contracts. That's why Neymar and Cavani are still fighting about who's taking the penalties.
  28. Feb 8, 2018
    #28

    Ramshock The spacegoats did it

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  29. Feb 8, 2018
    #29

    Siorac Full Member

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    Isn't that more like an ego thing? Neymar earns about a quadrillion euros per week, goal bonus surely doesn't make a big difference to his financial situation...
  30. Feb 8, 2018
    #30

    Revan Assumptionman

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    I wouldn't be surprised if there are many strikers who prefer to score rather than win, and prefer to win golden shoe and other individual trophies instead of team trophies.
  31. Feb 8, 2018
    #31

    SirAF Ageist

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    Tbf, most players don't play at clubs who are capable of winning trophies.
  32. Feb 8, 2018
    #32

    Adam-Utd Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid

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    Shearer is a tricky example. His boyhood love for the club obviously blinded him to the truth, but I think he genuinely thought Newcastle would be on the rise and competing for trophies.

    Realistically though he should have joined us, just imagine how many he would have scored with Giggs/Scholes and the likes assisting him.
  33. Feb 8, 2018
    #33

    Brightonian Full Member

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    It's always been an interesting thing about Rooney that, in my opinion, he has spent most of his career being an exception to this rule. All strikers like to be scoring goals and highly thought of, but he always seems to have been driven primarily by trophies (and, sure, money, but now we've discovered that shock horror, so are all other modern players).

    I think this fed into that knack he had throughout his career of forming successful partnerships with other top forwards, which so many of the great strikers have always struggled to do. Notably Van Nistelrooy, Ronaldo, Saha, Van Persie. I know he's still persona non grata to plenty of caf drama queens but he was an unusually team-oriented striker and that helped us to a lot of the trophies we won during his career here.
  34. Feb 8, 2018
    #34

    Raees Boing Boing Baggies

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    I think if we were to believe in such a hypothesis and I don't (as it is a rare event where a big name attacker doesn't take the chance to go to a bigger club and become a star), the reason would be that a striker wants to be the main man and therefore it necessitates that the big club he is moving too, does not have any other big striker on their books and also they are obviously adored by their current club and fans, thus they have to take a big risk by moving to a club where they might not click with the attack and score less goals. On the flip side, if they're greedy for goals, a bigger team, with better team mates will lead to more opportunities to score more goals and more glory. So that is why I am not convinced by this line of argument.

    @adexkola .. I don't think players are not obsessed with trophies, of course they are but it is real life, not Fifa. Fans forget that at the end of the day this is a job too, and therefore these guys need to look at their family situation, do they want to train as hard at a bigger club (perhaps they enjoy being comfortable at their current club), don't want to have to move abroad or they know that at a certain club there is too much competition for a particular spot or they don't like the current manager in charge of a particular club that is after them. Don't want to risk flopping at a club when they've got it good at their current club and are worshipped. So sometimes it is not logical for them to just leave their current club and always go for the bigger option as there are a zillion lifestyle reasons which will impact on their enjoyment of the game. For Harry Kane, will he enjoy himself more in Madrid than at Spurs? for the fan it is a no-brainer but for him the individual, he'd much rather probably live in London, stay close to family and try and win trophies that way and enjoy it more.
  35. Feb 8, 2018
    #35

    Ducklegs Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid

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    No, he had a deal with United but Walker wouldnt sell him to us.

    Then when he was there they got close to winning things a couple of times and we just bought other strikers and never went back.

    The “Shearers love for NUFC” is a load of hokum, he had his chance, the deal couldnt be done, we didnt go back.
  36. Feb 8, 2018
    #36

    rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks

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    A trait found in many footballers, but especially strikers, is that they don't actually care about football very much at all.

    Didier Drogba famously has a degree in accounting, and also funded a hospital in the ivory coast. In fact he may have built even more hospitals since then.

    But other strikers too have very little interest in football, outside of what would be their 9 to 5. Arsenal legend Dennis Bergkamp for example, pursued a career in aviation safety after an incident in the 1994 world cup. Eric Cantona is passionate about both politics and philosophy, especially the teachings of Immanuel Kant and the politics of socialism and the left. Indeed, many philosophers themselves have been great footballers; ancient Greek Philosopher Socrates although most often spoken about in the evolution of and foundation of modern ethics, was also a great attacking midfielder playing in two world cups. His protege Plato, often considered to be the founder of western philosophy and science, played as a striker for clubs like AC Milan, playing in one one world cup himself.
  37. Feb 8, 2018
    #37

    Lord SInister Full Member

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  38. Feb 8, 2018
    #38

    André Dominguez Full Member

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    You are underestimating the human greed factor. And that includes ego boost too. They want everthing at their favour.
  39. Feb 8, 2018
    #39

    Stacks Full Member

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    Clearly you guys were in a pub because you were obviously drunk. Most of these players have won titles at major clubs, after moving from smaller teams, in a quest for glory.
  40. Feb 8, 2018
    #40

    jem Full Member

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    Perhaps tangential to the point, but I always have my doubts when a player claims he is happier winning without scoring than he is with scoring a hattrick. I know they have to say it, but it is often far from convincing.