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Cricket World Cup/ICC Champions Trophy Draft - QF 12OunceEpilogue vs NM

Discussion in 'Other Sport' started by 2mufc0, May 2, 2018.

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Based on performances in ICC tournaments which team would win?

Poll closed May 3, 2018.
  1. Team 12OunceEpilogue

    38.5%
  2. Team NM

    61.5%
  1. May 2, 2018
    #1

    2mufc0 Full Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    This draft is based on player performances in ICC World Cups and Champions Trophy only, only performances in these tournaments count, performances outside these tournaments carry no weight. Please vote according to this criteria.

    TEAM 12OUNCE


    1 Sachin Tendulkar
    2 Brendon McCullum†
    3 Ramnaresh Sarwan
    4 Mohammad Mahmudullah
    5 Steve Waugh*
    6 Sean Williams
    7 Jacob Oram
    8 Brad Hogg
    9 Chaminda Vaas
    10 Roger Binny
    11 Michael Holding

    VS

    TEAM NM


    1. Herschelle Gibbs
    2. T. Dilshan
    3. Kane Williamson
    4. Yuvraj Singh
    5. Alec Stewart
    6. Michael Bevan
    7. Roger Twose
    8. Imran Khan
    9. Morne Morkel
    10. Abdul Qadir
    11. Courtney Walsh

    12Ounce writeup

    Batting:


    1. Tendulkar - The all-time greatest WC run scorer (2,278) across 45 matches including a record six centuries. Also holds the record for most runs in a single tournament (673 in 2003, where he was also Player of the Tournament) and top scored in 1996 with 523, and has been named Player of the Match a record nine times.

    ICCCTxWC Stats- High Score: 152, Average: 52.28, Strike Rate: 87.14 50s: 15, 100s: 7

    World Cup Stats-
    High Score: 152, Average: 56.95, Strike Rate: 88.98 50s: 15, 100s: 6

    2. McCullum - An all-time great keeper-batsman, particularly in the short form, Baz has the fourth best WC strike rate in history (120.85), which paired with a 30+ average ensures a lightning start for my innings. His keeping is superb, while his ability to push up to the stumps to pressurise batsmen facing medium-fast bowling, as he has done for his compatriot Oram to fine effect in ODI cricket, is a huge feather in his cap.

    ICCCTxWC Stats- High Score: 101, Average: 30.23, Strike Rate: 99.03 50s: 6, 100s: 1

    World Cup Stats- High Score: 101, Average: 33.73, Strike Rate: 120.85 50s: 6, 100s: 1

    3. Sarwan - A top-class WC performer, with an enviable 46.19 average, Sarwan’s crowning glory in tournament cricket was the Champions Trophy of 2004, where he took away two Player of the Match awards and was named the overall Player of the Series in his side’s victorious campaign. A particular highlight was his gorgeous 56 not out in the semi final against Pakistan, where he salvaged the innings after both openers departed for a combined six runs and Brian Lara left him at the crease having retired hurt.

    ICCCTxWC Stats- High Score: 92, Average: 39.28, Strike Rate: 77.19 50s: 6, 100s: 0

    World Cup Stats- High Score: 92, Average: 46.19, Strike Rate: 75.00 50s: 3, 100s: 0

    4. Mahmudullah - He made history in 2015 with his country’s first World Cup century in a defeat of England, then followed this up in the resulting quarter final against New Zealand with his second; a monstrous 128 off 123 balls including 15 boundaries. In the process he set the highest Bangladeshi wicket partnership in ODI history and laid a solid claim to the title of his country’s greatest ever World Cup batsman.

    ICCCTxWC Stats- High Score: 128*, Average: 59.33, Strike Rate: 80.90 50s: 1, 100s: 3

    World Cup Stats- High Score: 128*, Average: 56.71, Strike Rate: 77.69 50s: 1, 100s: 2

    5. Waugh - A truly iconic World Cup player and captain, Waugh was formidable across four tournaments, including wins in ’87 and ’99. As impressive as he was in the earlier outing (167 runs at over 55 avg.) it was as skipper in ’99 where Waugh wrote himself into the history books. Here “Iceman” lived up to his nickname, leading by example to inspire his team back from the brink to win seven consecutive games to lift the trophy. Against South Africa Waugh near single-handedly dragged his team over the line with a stunning unbeaten 120 (ably abetted by a certain H.Gibbs!) before a key 56 in a heart-stoppingly close semi final against the same opposition.

    ICCCTxWC Stats- High Score: 120*, Average: 45.81, Strike Rate: 80.38 50s: 6, 100s: 1

    World Cup Stats- High Score: 120*, Average: 48.90, Strike Rate: 81.03 50s: 6, 100s: 1

    6. Williams - Averaging north of 45 at just under a run a ball, Williams specialises in piling on runs for his team in the heart of the batting order. Seven of his 11 WC innings came at strikes rates above 100, including a Player of the Match-worthy outing against the UAE in 2015. Understandably Williams has never had the chance to showcase his talents at the business end of tournaments but he is a truly top-class dynamo of a batsman as proven by his fine figures.

    ICCCTxWC Stats- High Score: 96, Average: 45.14, Strike Rate: 98.13 50s: 6, 100s: 0

    World Cup Stats- High Score: 96, Average: 54.67, Strike Rate: 101.23 50s: 5, 100s: 0

    7. Oram - An intelligent lower-middle order batsman, Oram can be an able foil for the likes of Waugh and Williams. It’s impressive that three of his best four World Cup totals were made undefeated, including a fine 63 against England in 2007 (in which he backed up Scott Styris) and a 35 against Canada in the same tournament where he partnered an irrepressible McCullum, who was letting fly at over two runs per ball.

    ICCCTxWC Stats- High Score: 63*, Average: 21.77, Strike Rate: 71.66 50s: 1, 100s: 0

    World Cup Stats- High Score: 63*, Average: 23.55, Strike Rate: 71.94 50s: 1, 100s: 0

    8. Hogg - Hogg has shown in a couple of World Cup cameos he is capable of contributing at over a run a ball. His 40* versus Scotland in 2007 was smacked off only 15 deliveries.

    ICCCTxWC Stats- High Score: 40*, Average: 16.16, Strike Rate: 103.19 50s: 0, 100s: 0

    World Cup Stats- High Score: 40*, Average: 17.40, Strike Rate: 104.82 50s: 0, 100s: 0

    9. Vaas - A handful of innings in the mid to high 20s and a smattering of undefeated stands attest to Vaas’s ability to stay the course in partnership with a more established colleague and make contributions himself.

    ICCCTxWC Stats- High Score: 29*, Average: 21.68, Strike Rate: 78.86 50s: 0, 100s: 0

    World Cup Stats- High Score: 29*, Average: 21.90, Strike Rate: 73.98 50s: 0, 100s: 0

    10. Binny - A few 20+ scores and an exalted state career in the middle, including opening for Karnataka in first-class matches, suggest Binny is an able carrier of the bat. With the possible exception of Holding, to whom he succumbed for just a single run in ’83, nobody is making Binny their bunny.

    World Cup Stats- High Score: 27, Average: 10.42, Strike Rate: 52.51 50s: 0, 100s: 0

    11. Holding - I’m not expecting miracles from this genuine number 11 though if Mikey fancies emulating his one and only double-figure score at World Cups, a barnstorming 20 off 13 deliveries against the Aussies in ’83, he’s welcome to chip in!

    World Cup Stats- High Score: 20, Average: 7.20, Strike Rate: 61.02 50s: 0, 100s: 0

    Bowling:

    1. Holding (R-Fast) - Holding’s blistering pace is incredibly potent, but when combined with supreme control and consistency his bowling becomes world-class. Any four wicket demolition of India is impressive, but to do so in your maiden World Cup match for just 2.75 per over is truly special. In fact, apart from one stint against the Aussies for 3.08, Holding never went for more than three an over in his World Cup career. Economical bowling of this quality is gold dust in the short form, and the addition of Holding’s legendary eye for a wicket makes him the key man in our bowling attack.

    World Cup Stats- Overs: 115.5 Maidens: 16 Wickets: 20 Average: 17.05 Strike Rate: 34.75 Economy: 2.94 Best: 4/33

    2. Vaas (L-Fast) - On paper one of the greatest World Cup bowlers of them all. 49 wickets (23 in 2003 making him that World Cup’s leading wicket taker) at 21.22 on average is a fine return, and his ability to swing the ball both ways at searing pace makes him a nasty proposition for any batsman. Three Player of the Match awards, including 4/22 in a six run win against West Indies in 2003 (where an embattled Sarwan scored an unbeaten 47 off 44 balls to get the Windies so close), proves Vaas’s quality at this level. His hat trick against Bangladesh with the opening three deliveries of their innings in 2003, the first and only such feat of its kind, epitomises the magic that can happen when you give this man the new cherry.

    ICCCTxWC Stats- Overs: 387.2 Maidens: 58 Wickets: 67 Average: 22.89 Strike Rate: 34.60 Economy: 3.96 Best: 6/25

    World Cup Stats- Overs: 261.4 Maidens: 39 Wickets: 49 Average: 21.22 Strike Rate: 32.04 Economy: 3.97 Best: 6/25

    3. Oram (R-Fast-Medium) - Along with Hogg, Oram makes the 25 lowest averages and strike rates in World Cup history (min. 20 wickets taken). His relationship with McCullum behind the stumps is to his advantage and having taken scalps such as those of Gayle, Sarwan and Samuels in 2007 and Graeme Smith and Faf Du Plessis in 2011 Oram has demonstrable ability to trouble the very best opponents.

    ICCCTxWC Stats- Overs: 247 Maidens: 28 Wickets: 51 Average: 20.35 Strike Rate: 29.00 Economy: 4.20 Best: 5/36

    World Cup Stats- Overs: 182.2 Maidens: 21 Wickets: 36 Average: 21.33 Strike Rate: 30.39 Economy: 4.21 Best: 4/39

    4. Binny (R-Fast) - Binny’s tournament was the 1983 World Cup. There he took all but one of his 19 WC wickets to make him the leading wicket-taker at the tournament and thus was an integral part in India’s triumph. He is most fondly remembered for his superb 4/29 in which he shredded Australia’s top order with the ball, contributed a fine 21 with the bat including two boundaries and picked up the Player of the Match award. With a strike rate mostly below 30 and an average always in the teens or low 20s facing Binny in 1983 was a tall order, as the likes of Viv Richards, Clive Lloyd (twice) and Allan Border (also twice) found to their cost.

    World Cup Stats- Overs: 95 Maidens: 9 Wickets: 19 Average: 20.11 Strike Rate: 30.00 Economy: 4.02 Best: 4/29

    5. Hogg (L-Leg Spin) - As alluded to above Hogg’s numbers put him in the top 20 best average and strike rate for any bowlers to have taken more than 20 wickets at World Cups, putting him in elite company in tournament cricket. Usually economical, having only twice gone for more than five an over out of 21 World Cup appearances, he proved his worth time and again in occupying an end. However it is his wicket-taking in Australia’s 2003 triumph (in the absence of their more celebrated leg spinner) and 2007 for which Hogg is most fondly remembered. His brand of left arm leg spin deceived many a seasoned batsman, including the likes of Younis Khan, Mahala Jayawardene (in both ’03 and ’07) and Yuvraj Singh in the ’03 final. However it was Andy Flower, on 62 and in fine touch, who famously succumbed to Hogg’s lethal flipper in a match that would see the Aussie claim a further two wickets and finish the match averaging only 16.57 with a sub-20 strike rate. As he proved during his team’s two tournament wins Hogg has the toolkit to worry any batsman, but the way in which he spun the Netherlands’ tail off the field in 2007, before doing the same to New Zealand’s lower-middle order later in the tournament, suggests he is best deployed later in the innings to rip through the lower half of his opponent’s card.

    ICCCTxWC Stats- Overs: 165.3 Maidens: 11 Wickets: 35 Average: 19.48 Strike Rate: 28.30 Economy: 4.12 Best: 4/27

    World Cup Stats- Overs: 158.3 Maidens: 10 Wickets: 34 Average: 19.24 Strike Rate: 27.97 Economy: 4.13 Best: 4/27

    6. Waugh (R-Fast-Medium) - A steadfast support bowling option, Waugh’s controlled medium pace has troubled a slew of top class batsmen at World Cup level; such as Martin Crowe, Allan Lamb and Brian Lara. His more eye-catching tournament efforts include a 3/36 against Pakistan in ’92, with Miandad, Wasim and Imran Khan falling victim, and two wickets versus India seven years later for only eight runs.

    ICCCTxWC Stats- Overs: 180.1 Maidens: 7 Wickets: 28 Average: 30.89 Strike Rate: 38.60 Economy: 4.80 Best: 3/36

    World Cup Stats- Overs: 173.1 Maidens: 7 Wickets: 27 Average: 30.15 Strike Rate: 38.48 Economy: 4.70 Best: 3/36

    Summary:

    Batting:

    We have a rock-solid top order with one of the draft’s best opening partnerships, who will build a winning platform quickly and effectively, followed by the cool-headed Sarwan and the explosive Mahmudullah. At five comes an all-time great in Waugh while at six we have Williams’s demonstrable ability to defy the minnow status of his nation to pile runs on the board against quality bowling. Oram at seven gives ballast to our lower-middle as his more exalted and acclimatised partner keeps the score ticking, while eight through ten bring contributions and staying power where needed.

    Bowling:

    The bowling attack is finely balanced with every member of the unit having taken valuable wickets at tournament level. Our opening pair are top class; Vaas’s southpaw swing will combine superbly with Holding’s right arm pace, which is as controlled as it is lethal. Oram’s numbers prove his brand of right arm medium-fast bowling can keep any batsman honest while Binny’s wicket taking heroics in ’83 show his right arm fast bowling also has what it takes. Our spinner is underrated by many but as his numbers, key wicket-taking and winner's medals prove Hogg has serious World Cup pedigree. If needed Waugh can call on his unrivalled big game experience to contribute quality respite bowling in the middle overs.

    NM writeup

    Batting:
    1. Gibbs - Great opener with average of 54 and 85+ strike rate in ICC tournaments. Great fielder!
    2. Dilshan - Aggressive opener. Great stats (average of near 50 at nearly 90 Strike Rate) and a useful spinner too. Will be my fifth bowler with Yuvraj
    3. Williamson - Top class. Average of 48 and strike rate of 88 in ICC tournaments
    4. Yuvi - ICC Tournament GOAT contender. 45 average with nearly 90 strike rate
    5. Stewart - Gritty middle order player to hold things together around the stroke players around him (average 33)
    6. Bevan - ODI goat and decent ICC player (Average of 40ish)
    7. Twose - Decent player, but overachieved in ICC tournaments - average of 53!
    8. Imran Khan - Can rebuild in times of crisis and smash it if needed at the end. Brilliant player.
    9. Morkel - can wack the ball
    Tail - they will try and fail to wack the ball

    Bowling:
    1. Walsh (Fast) - Average of 20, econ of 3.5, legendary bowler
    2. Imran Khan (Fast) - Average of 19, econ of 3.8, strike rate of 29 Legend!
    3. Morkel (Fast)- Average of 20, strike rate of 26. Wicket taker
    4. Qadir (LS) - Average of 21, econ of 3.8 strike rate of 32. Wicket taker
    5. Yuvraj (SLA)- Average of 27, and strike rate of 33
    6. Dilshan (OS) - Average of 38 and strike rate of 38. Will bowl a few overs if needed

    Why I win:
    1. Amazing Bowlers: 4 Bowlers average 21 or less, all are wicket takers and my fifth bowler averages 27 and is a wicket taker too. I even have a 6th (Dilshan) in case my 5th has an off-day! My bowlers are legends of the game - Imran, Walsh, and Qadir. I have amazing balance - Pace, Off-spin, and Leg-spin

    2. Amazing fielders: Bevan, Gibbs, Williamson, Yuvi - we will be getting some run outs, and saving 20+ runs in the field

    3. Balance batting: Two aggressive openers, a great innings builder in Williamson, two GOAT finishers in Yuvi and Bevan, and the steady, experienced hands (Stewart, Imran, Twose) in case of trouble. All bases are covered. His batting is actually pretty ordinary outside of Sachin and Waugh.

    One note: My stats are ICC Trophy + World Cup. If 12OunceEplilogue uses World Cup only stats, please inflate my averages for batsmen by about 5-7 runs or reduce his by the same to account to make it fair when voting. The bowling averages don't change much, other than Dilshan and Yuvi averaging 23-24 (making them even better)


    Overall, I take this in a close one due to better bowling, much better fielding, and a better balanced batting.
  2. May 2, 2018
    #2

    2mufc0 Full Member

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  3. May 2, 2018
    #3

    NM Full Member

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    So. Thoughts?
  4. May 2, 2018
    #4

    NM Full Member

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    Also if Binny and Oram are the 4th and 5th bowlers for a team.. they are in trouble when compared to my attack..
  5. May 3, 2018
    #5

    Skills Snitch

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    I trust NMs bowling attack more. It's the biggest difference between the teams
  6. May 3, 2018
    #6

    NM Full Member

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    Also pointing out that the opposing team has MAhmudullah and a Zimbabwe guy in the middle order. Mine should walk all over that and I bat real deep - all the way to 8 with Imran!
  7. May 3, 2018
    #7

    RedTiger Full Member

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    12oz's team is fire!
  8. May 3, 2018
    #8

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    WC mode Tendulkar vs Qadir. :lol:
  9. May 3, 2018
    #9

    NM Full Member

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    an folks genuinely explain voting for the likes of Oram, Mahmudullah, Williams and Binny?
  10. May 3, 2018
    #10

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    The Sachin effect.

    But yeah, the only bowler i really rate in 12ounce team is Holding, he's short on quality as a unit.
  11. May 3, 2018
    #11

    12OunceEpilogue Full Member

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    I'll take a run at it:):

    Oram doesn't have the finishing of Bevan but I admire his ability to stay the course at ICC level to knock off a 20 or 30 alongside a settled partner. That will most likely be an all-time great in Steve Waugh, who has fine ICC numbers and a demonstrable ability to dig in when the going gets tough in big matches. If not Waugh it'll be Mahmudullah or Williams; the former is a history-maker for his nation who has an ICC average of 91.66 at a rate of +80 at two down, while the latter has produced 64.50 on average at a rate of 96.62 batting at six, with knocks against the West Indies and an embattled 28, a second-top score, against the likes of Lee, Tait and Johnson in 2011.

    The obvious problem, which I must concede, with including former Associate Members as well as their relatively small sample size is their obvious lack of big-game pedigree, but in this are they so different from Williamson (avg. 13 in semis and finals) and Stewart (a single last-4 knock of 33 in '92)? I rate that pair but the fact is my two former AMs have also done the business within the parameters of this draft, particularly in the batting positions/roles I have assigned to them.

    As you rightly suggest Oram is not a terrifying strike bowler, but his ICC figures (over 50 wickets at 20.35 Avg, 29 SR, 4.20 per over) point to his superb consistency in keeping runs tight while producing a steady flow of wickets. If I were handing him the new ball asking him to rip through the top order I'd be mad, but as a functional part of a bowling unit I'm happy to have him.

    As for Binny, I'll not have a bad word said against him on my watch thank you very much! Yes he is a one tournament wonder, but in '83 he led the wicket-taking for the winning team at a better rate, economy and near-identical average Morne Morkel has managed at ICC level. The South African is a very solid pick in this draft, but I'll see his 3/46 in the QFinal vs NZ in 2011 (Player of the Match, one JDP Oram) and his 3/59 in the semi of 2015 and raise you Binny's PotM-worthy 4/29 against the Aussies, his 2/42 in the semi where he removed both of England's set openers, his consistent wicket-taking at WC level and his winner's medal. Binny is by no means a WC GOAT but he is unquestionably an unsung hero and in this draft he has serious credentials as a first change bowler.
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
  12. May 3, 2018
    #12

    12OunceEpilogue Full Member

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    Obvious first pick is obvious :drool:

    I'm keen on Vaas, a left armer who can swing it both ways at decent pace. He's taken plenty of wickets at a fine lick in tournament cricket, most notably in the semi of 2003 where he did for Hayden, Ponting and Harvey only for SL to later lose out on D/L. Ideally he'll open the bowling with Holding, providing a nice right arm/left arm combination with the new ball, before coming back on later to swing the older ball. He may not have truly top class performances in finals nor winner's medals to shout about but he has fantastic ICC figures in my opinion.

    Ditto Hogg, who has superb numbers, two winner's medals and a rare delivery style, with some nasty weapons like the flipper, that caught out a host of top class batsmen at ICC level. He's by no means a celebrated name but he's a quality bowler and, for me, comfortably the greatest Aussie leg spinner who never failed a substance test!
  13. May 3, 2018
    #13

    Skills Snitch

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    Yeah Hogg was quality. Got through his overs dangerously quick
  14. May 3, 2018
    #14

    NM Full Member

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    I'll tackle this:
    Para 1:
    1. Oram - agree, he's a hitter, but my lower middle order (Imran, Bevan, Twose) knocks yours out of the water.
    2. For Williams, if you are bigging up a score of 27, you have a problem
    3. Mahmuddulah - great WC+ICC stats, so I can't argue that. However, he's just not a great player (I'd say he's a worse version of Twose)

    Para 2:
    4. If you are saying Williams and Mahmuddulah are as good as williamson and Stewart, then your having a laugh. Stewart played in a crap England team, why should it be held against him?

    Para 3 & 4: Oram and Binny just aren't as good as my bowlers. Period. Binny especially benefits (not that I'm holding it against it -> he won us a WC after all) from playing in 1 tournament in bowler friendly conditions in England. If he played on flat pitches today he would be donkey fodder.

    Overall, my bowling unit is significantly better, and your batting (other than Sachin) doesn't come close to making up for it.
  15. May 4, 2018
    #15

    NM Full Member

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  16. May 4, 2018
    #16

    12OunceEpilogue Full Member

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    Good game mate, it was a touch quiet and I didn't get chance to unleash my secret weapon (Gibbs would definitely drop Waugh who would go on to get a massive total) but fair's fair I think I was a bit light in several departments and you deserved the win.

    Good luck in the rest of the game @NM and thanks to everyone who voted for me, I've learned a lot about how the draft works.