Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by van der star, Jul 10, 2018.
He's not the greatest of all time?
Give it a rest. @SportingCP96 thinks so, and I and countless others think so. It’s an opinion and any further discussion is futile. You don’t see us spamming in the other guys thread.
I think he is on the Mount Rushmore. To me he Is the greatest of all time and has done more then enough to prove it but I can see why People would have Maradona ahead based on World Cup alone. Don’t feel like arguing about it though.
To me no doubt the greatest player I have ever seen.
That is one thing i have noticed. I never go on Messi thread but they always seem to come in here. Many can’t accept the fact.
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Not going to waste my time watching a Santos team (whatever that means). But this one was ok.
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The whole Messi/Ronaldo debate aside fornme there can only be one conclusion; those 2 simply are the best that have ever graced a pitch. The longevity, production (individually and team) and overall speed of the current game make it impossible to say otherwise. What Ronaldo has done again tonight is just phenominal and for both it just comes as expected.
Appriciate what your seeing and stop the nonsense about who is better because these two are so far ahead of the rest that it hardly make a difference
I'm going to be incredibly harsh upsetting some people and say he's the modern day Gerd Muller.
653 goals in 707 games at club level.
68 goals in 62 games at international level.
Muller scored winning goals in the World Cup final, Euro finals, European Cup finals etc.
But nobody ranks Gerd Muller in the top 10 let alone the greatest ever.
I'd rank Ronaldo somewhere in the 5-10 range, but I almost certainly would have Pele, Maradona, Messi and at least Cruyff all ahead of him.
Ronaldo's a GOAT goalscorer, but in terms of creativity, passing range, dribbling I do think there are better players than him.
Yep this and only this. They are TO ME the two greatest ever. You’re delusional to think otherwise. Pele is over rated and Maradona never had the longevity.
Yet plenty rank Ronaldo in the top 5 comfortably, so no, you won't upset anyone because they will be quick to realize you are just wrong.
Your posts are incredible, delusional to think Pele who was scoring 5 goals in the World Cup at 17 is greater than CR7, hilarious.
Muller played during a fairly homogenous era where the defending wasn't nearly as good as it is today. Ronaldo is one of the best ever and its safe to say he's more than just a goal machine.
Sportsman in previous in all sports didn't have the luxury of sports science and modern day training methods. Not really a fair comparison, although Maradona's was partly self inflicted.
Hence why you're seeing players Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Serena dominate tennis well into their 30s. Tour de France winners are in their 30s these days (never before), Tom Brady approaching mid 40s still best QB in the world etc, they're products of the era they grew up in.
People who call Messi and Ronaldo as the top 2 bar none are usually (but not in all cases) millennials, who also hold the following opinions
LeBron James is the best basketball player ever
World Cup 2018 was the greatest WC ever
Steven Gerrard was the greatest Liverpool player ever
De Gea is the best united Goalkeeper ever
Alistair Cook is the greatest England batsman ever
Sergio Ramos the GOAT CB
Anthony Joshua is the GOAT heavyweight
Lewis Hamilton is the F1 GOAT even of today
Obama is the greatest US president ever
Avengers Endgame is the greatest movie ever
Just watched a replay of that second goal and he has no right to score that. Might look the simplest of the three but that's an insane finish with the ball bouncing like it was bouncing.
He's now scored 7 out of the 16 hattricks ever scored in an official match for Portugal. Only 12 goals to go until he reaches 100 goals for us, might happen at the Euros if he goes on a great streak.
Ali Daei's record of 109 international goals would be very tough to match though, we'd probably have to change to a more attacking manager for that to happen.
Pelé name is famous rightfully so but his numbers are inflated by a poor league and overall poor standard of football at the time where the sport was relatively new. Also his World Cup triumphs had some of the greatest Brazilian of all time.
Example: Fernando Peyroteo look him up. Has 337 goals in 187 games. No one mentions him because the quality of football played at the Time was poor.
Just because you grew up hearing his name all the time spoon fed in your mouth does not mean he is the greatest. Don’t be the type of person to jump because someone tells you too.
So yes no one has ever had the longevity and broken the all the record year after year like messi and Ronaldo.
He's better than Gerd Muller, but my point stands is that goal output doesn't necessarily conform to being a GOAT contender. I personally think after goals there a number of players better than him.
I'm not saying he's not a great player hence why I would still rank him easy in the top 10, probably not top 5.
I agree with a lot that you said but I am not saying it is a “fact” but to me they are the two best and I have explained in other threads why. I would not argue with someone saying Maradona is the best it’s really personal choice when it comes with the top 3 (Ronaldo, Messi, Maradona).
Out of everything you said though the only one I “disagree” in is the LBJ one. There is a very fair case and debate when it comes to MJ and LBJ.
I don't think anyone actually thinks his goal output alone is what makes him one of the all time greats. He makes everyone around him significantly better and of course he's a fairly adept tornado of everything from free kicks, headers, tricks etc. We need look no further than Madrid's CL dominance and what happened to them when he stepped away to see what a titan he has been.
One of the dumbest and laziest comparisons out there that certain people (who have no clue about CR7's game) make.
He's of huge significance to Real Madrid's 3 peat, but even then he was non existent in last years semi's and the final itself showing you they were never a one man team but a collection of superb individuals with Ronaldo being the best of them. That Real Madrid team was in decline for sometime and were incredibly fortunate to win it last year. Bayern battered them in both legs and if Liverpool half decent goalkeeper they could have easily won it themselves, Michael Oliver also bailed them out in the quarters from an embarrassing collapse. I do think if Zidane gets to build another side he can win it again though.
The fact that Juventus were rudderless this year despite Ronaldo being their only goalscorer in the knockouts shows you he's not good enough to win a tournament by himself. He's an outstanding goalscorer, but his all round contribution, particularly in his 30s, is much limited than Messi's who's in a different stratosphere when it comes to having a 360 vision passing range, dribbling, free kicks.
Yep. Makes me laugh every time.
Neither is Messi as we've all seen.
Tonight we saw two different versions of what he can do, much more involved in the first half and then more of a poacher role in the second. Even in his current version, he's a lot more than goals. The pass he made to Felix tonight isn't for any player for example.
Goals aren't all worth the same and the goals he scores these days are worth more than the goals most players score. His mentality and decisiveness are unparalleled and it does make teams better. He's not as good as he once from a footballing perspective since he's lost the physical atributes that set him apart but his presence is worth every bit as much as it used to.
It might have been a while ago but he was amongst the absolute best dribblers and creators in the world for a very long time of his career. He might look like a completely different player now but it's the same guy. People can compare his footballing atributes with other legends but the truth is that his footballing atributes completely depend on what timeframe you're talking about.
Even at his dribbling best, it's still a tier below the absolute best all time in that regard.
Poor league how? All the best Brazilians were playing in Brazil and they were the best players of that era, any time Pele came across European opposition he did well, at 17 he was arguably the best player in the world, 13 years later in 1970 still the best in the world, hows that for longevity?
I’m not going to repeat everything I just said. Watch the video. If you did see it watch it again. He is overrated.
Look up peyroteo for example.
I got through 5 seconds of that video, what was the main arguments of why the original phenom a guy who was 2nd to0 goalscorer and silver ball winner at 17 was overrated?
Sure. I think so many big trophies coming in at a time where he's declined in that part of his game warps people's view of what kind of player he was in his prime though.
It's weird how his longevity makes some people think less of him rather than the opposite.
And, funnily, no clue about Müller's either.
It's true that collective defending is on a higher standard nowadays, which is also connected to higher fitness levels. But in other ways this era is much more favourable towards offensive players than the 60s/70s were. (Imo, that's one of the origins of the popular complaint that there are no great defenders anymore.)
Ok I’ll try. The overall standard back then was very poor as is with almost anything things get better over time level of competition, understanding of the game etc. I think something like 400 of his (1000 goals) goals were scored in friendliest against pub teams.
1962 World Cup he didn’t even participate ( he got injured) so that win had NOTHING to do with him but rather Garinhcha. He scored 6 goals in 58 and then in 62 and 66 had 1 goal .... so In other words half of his World Cup wins he had no influence on.
He is a name that since you begin watching football is shoved down our throat and you get it stuck in your mind that “yep he’s the goat” but in reality he is overrated.
Now understand that me calling him overrated does not mean I am saying he is a bad player but he is just now on Maradona Ronaldo or Messi level.
Also that video is one I saw a while ago so not sure all the points he made. The points I made were based and formed over time and as I dug into World Cup wins and record and all those things is football fans love to do.
Does longevity not count when assessing who's the goat?
When we talk about Michael Jordan in basketball and Roger Federer in tennis longevity at the top is factored in as well as skill.
Arguably Maradona and cruyff haven't had half the longevity of Ronaldo and Messi. Pele you could has had the longevity but I personally think he is over rated in an era which was easier but for the era he was in he was probably the best
I've argued that isn't always fair given the incredible advancements over the years made in dietary regimes and training methods to prolong sportstars careers which wasn't available in previous generations. ALL sportstars in almost ALL sports are living longer, in some cases, a lot longer than they ever used to.
- Federer and Serena playing at the top level till the age 40, Nadal and Djokovic will likely follow suit.
- Ronnie O'Sullivan (Snooker I know) playing at a higher level far longer than any of his predecessors.
- Tom Brady still the greatest Quarterback in the world about to 42, unthinkable in previous era's.
- Jimmy Anderson likely to play on till he's around 40, unthinkable for a fast bowler.
- Chris Froome may dominate till he's nearly 40, in previous era's Grand Tour cyclists were washed up by 30.
- Michael Phelps was still winning Gold medals at Swimming in his 30s, which was unheard of in previous era's.
- Lebron still might be best basketball player in the world at 40 (which Jordan wasn't)
Sportstars live FOREVER these days, Messi and Ronaldo aren't unique in this regard. I fully expect Messi and Ronaldo (certainly the former) to be ballon d'Or contenders aged 40.
35 is nothing these days for the modern sportstar. But they are benefiting from the era they grew up in.
This, I don't get why they can't stick to that thread if they insist on talking about Messi.
When we factor in GOAT arguments across all sports, the longevity issue is going to be a increasingly be brought up because you are going to see so many sports play a lot longer than they used, not necessarily at a higher peak, but longer than other era's did.
If it’s so easy to have the longevity he has due to scientific advancements then why can pretty much no other top player remain at the top for as long as him?
At any rate, looking back, we were stupid for selling him at the price that we did. Umpteen years later and he's still producing.
80mill was a bargain.
Well he's 34, not 44, and his level has declined, got less than 30 goals for Juventus the season, the first time in 10 years. Still very good, because his level was so high in the first place (in terms of goal output) a modest decline will be in top 10-15 strikers in europe. Will be interesting to see how Messi fares over the next few years.
Modric just won the ballon d'or aged 33. Pique and Ramos are still at the heartbeat of the Barca and Real defence still in their 30s as well.
Jamie Vardy still having his best seasons aged 32, Aguero's 31 still the prem's best striker, David Silva is 33, Buffoon is 41. Not every player is like this, but there is certainly more of them than before.
There are? Do you have any proof of that? Nevermind winning the Ballon D’Or at 33 when it’s been won at 41...
Ronaldo has played at the highest level since 2003 playing pretty much every week, often more than once. Look at the number of games he’s played in his career compared to other top players and it’s a huge difference. Especially since pretty much all of them have been at the highest level, he didn’t go to play in the US or Qatar.
He’ll end his career with the outfield player with most games played in football history.
Modric is a good example but then you talk about defenders and goalkeepers which are completely different. The only other top forward I remember at this age was Zlatan. For every example you give there are 1000 examples of players declining or retiring very early.
Ronaldo’s longevity is not normal or in line with what happens to other players of the same generation in any way whatsoever. Completely taking longevity away from the discussion when comparing to past legends because of advancements in sports science is bullshit.
A bit oot but thats a Lukaku level first touch/first time right there.
"Modern day Gerd Muller"
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