Deconstructing Dimitar

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Twisted_Woody, May 9, 2010.

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  1. May 9, 2010
    #41

    Twisted_Woody Full Member

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    To answer the goals per minute question.

    The statistics site I'm using only has minutes played for this season.

    This season has has 0.006 goals per minute.

    In perspective Rooney has 0.01 goals per minute.

    Diouf has 0.01 as well, having only played 86 minutes.

    Owen has 0.005 g/m

    Goals per minute is only so useful...
  2. May 11, 2010
    #42

    Crustanoid Full Member

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    If the stats say he's doing ok, how come watching him play suggests otherwise?
  3. May 11, 2010
    #43

    Twisted_Woody Full Member

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    We're expecting more than he can deliver.

    We want more than 12 goals a season.

    We want him to step up in big games.

    He doesn't do these things.
  4. May 11, 2010
    #44

    Ekeke Full Member

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    Its not more than he can deliver as he delivered these things at Spurs.
  5. May 11, 2010
    #45

    EZee Full Member

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    sell him

    simples
  6. May 11, 2010
    #46

    Twisted_Woody Full Member

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    No he didn't.

    If you read the bloody thing you'd see that.

    He had 12 and 15 goals in his two seasons at Spurs. He has 9 and 12 in his first two seasons with us.

    He's played less this season and scored more.
  7. May 11, 2010
    #47

    ntripunovski Full Member

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    the bad thing at statistic is that they do not show the real picture twisted woody.... Lets just make some facts for this....

    1. Tottenham is a vilige and United is a big city comperation.... Meaning... United has a far better player then Tottenham had back when Berbatov was there... With that said it is only natural to think that United's team-mates will create 3x more chances per game than Tottenham was creating back then... From all those chances you must expect the goals and assist to be raised from Berbatov era with Tottenham to United's playing time... Now what statistic hide is a decesion making and wasted attack play when there is a miss-placed pass.... Berbatov in United's era is worse then Berbatov in Tottenham era.... And that is strange considering how Tottenham had at least 3 times worse team then ours...

    2. About Tevez vs Berbatov comparation... Tevez is a fighter and Berbatov is a lazy attacker.... For instance... If Tevez loses a ball he will hunt you till you also lose the ball or he will just bring you down so there is no way for a counter attack... Berbatov when he looses the ball he will be looking at the ref for 1 minute watching from the ground... Balotelli for that lost his place this season in Inter team ;)... And also decesion making in Tevez situation was way better then Berbatov now-days...

    3. Another fact is that now that Ronaldo was gone I've expected that Berbatov will get more space and he did get more space and he was served one too many times and what pisses me off is that he was able to miss too many sitters in this season... A good player can miss just a few sitters in a season... I still remeber that horible miss of Ronaldo last season I think it was in a cup tie when he put in the row z from some 4-5 yards... And that was it.. The only sitter that he missed... But yet he scored a lot of goals...

    4. Mentaly... The most important fact... Some players will not be desturbed of how much fee was given to them or where are now playing... Berbatov is... and thats the problem... He is earning very good amount of money and he has that balkan mentality of not careing for football anymore now that he is a rich guy... There are plenty examples of that here in balkan space... We even have one example in our country... Darko Pancev... maybe the elders remember him... He was a golden boot winner in CL in 91 season when Red Star were winners... After that he went to Inter for quite amount of wage at that time... And he played just few games...

    5. Scoring against good teams.... Now this is an easy to describe... Berbatov cant score against a great clubs and when the pressure is on... Unlike Tevez who didnt mind the pressure.. In fact he was playing way better against top clubs then against bottom teams..

    6. Errors, Costly mistakes, call it what ever you want but Berbatov made too many in this two seasons.. When you stand for a penalty kick position you will see that the goal looks like it is harder to miss then to shoot on target... And it really is... Now Berbatov didnt miss the target but his penalty against everton last season was shamefull and the same thing happened against Chelsea in the cherity sheald... Or was it against bayern I dont remember... Those wre the worst penalties I had witness when United is concerned... And lets not forget how bad he was at the end of the last year season and lets just say that this season he made too many 150% chances wasted...

    It only comes to this... Why we sold Forlan? He was a good player who could miss a sitter... Rossi??? Veron??? But Berbatov is a talent??? Its make no sense expect the mosti important one.... Fergie want to clear himself for giving so much money for this kind of player.... Its oke Fergie.. you made mistake and no-one will slater you for that.. Let it go.. Let HIM go
  8. May 12, 2010
    #48

    Ekeke Full Member

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    He scored against the big teams, and he managed his 11 assists and 15 goals in a season at Spurs.

    In his first season with us he managed many assists, but only 9 league goals.

    This season 12 goals only 7 assists.

    At Spurs he did manage to put it all together and perform against the big sides.

    Its not too much to expect him to recreate what he already did at a lesser club.
  9. May 12, 2010
    #49

    Ekeke Full Member

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    So if Bent came to United it would be expecting too much for him to score against big clubs?

    Berbatov proved he can score a decent amount, create almost as many and be a match winner in big games in his final season at Spurs (scored against United, Arsenal and Chelsea). All while he was supposedly sulking about not being allowed to leave for a top club.

    If he can do that at Spurs he can do that at United. It hasnt happened, be it because of tactics, pressure, the lineup. Whatever, it hasnt happpened. But it is not expecting too much for him to do what he has already done before because he's already proven capable.
  10. May 12, 2010
    #50

    Chadwick's Acne Banned

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    :lol:

    What are you on about?
  11. May 12, 2010
    #51

    Twisted_Woody Full Member

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    Expecting him to score against big clubs is fine.

    But we got 12 goals from him this season. That is consistent with what he typically scores in a season.

    The fact they weren't against big clubs, or against Blackburn is just annoying.
  12. May 12, 2010
    #52

    fatboy Full Member

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    I think he's a confidence player, and the pressure of playing for United has sapped it out of him. Sure his actual stats are better, but that's only because he has a better supply line here, from playing with better players.

    But the manner in which he's chalked up these stats is not with the swagger that we're used to seeing when he played with Spurs. And that swagger is what we paid for 30mil, because it adds an edge to his creativity and overall game. That swagger is now gone, and what we have left now is an above-average striker, when we know he is much much more than that. "Above-average" pales in comparison to Rooney, and that's why people are getting on Berbatov's back.

    I harbour some hope that he can turn it around somehow, but confidence is a fragile thing. The pressure and expectations at OT is not going to get any lesser next season.
  13. May 12, 2010
    #53

    ntripunovski Full Member

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    why??? I'm not speking of Tottenham nowdays.. .I'm speaking of Tottenham two seasons ago
  14. May 12, 2010
    #54

    devilish Full Member

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    Good old Andy Cole used to say that when you sign with United, you just have to improve or else you are pretty much fecked up. In fact all our stars had improved throughout the years from Eric Cantona to Ronaldo, from Vidic to Rooney. It seems that 30m signings are not expected to do that step.
  15. May 12, 2010
    #55

    krazyrobus Full Member

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    My 1st observation is that we have truly become American. Reading your 1st post I couldn't help thinking about baseball with its rbi's and at bats etc we have now reached that level of statistical analysis in football.

    Secondly. Your stats proved that Berbatov is consistent from his Spurs days to now. And for me that is not good enough. You come to OT you are expected to improve your game. Carrick in his 1st season scored more goals than he ever had for Spurs, Valencia as well. That is what we expect. The fact that he hasn't for me means he has to go.

    How many times have Scholes, Giggs and Neville look dead and buried and written off only for them to raise their game to levels of old to earn their new contracts. He should be learning from these guys plus the old master himself that improvement is the name of the game at the club and to work hard at it.

    If he has worked hard at it and its not doing anything for him then fair enough he tried but can't cut it at the club, its no shame, billions can't. He should then go find a club to his level. This should also apply to Carrick, up your level or leave, i would give him more leeway because of 3 years of good service but same applies.
  16. May 12, 2010
    #56

    Chadwick's Acne Banned

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    3X BETTER

    3X MORE CHANCES

    How have you judged that?
  17. May 12, 2010
    #57

    Twisted_Woody Full Member

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    That's a great summary of the situation.

    Fantastic post.

    Make no mistake, I agree with you. My first post is simply putting all our frustrations in context.

    He is not shit. He just isn't stepping it up. However I think most people have missed the key point to my post. If he could hit the target more, aka increase his shot accuracy, he'd in fact score more.

    The lad needs confidence simple as.
  18. May 12, 2010
    #58

    ntripunovski Full Member

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    Well will you say that United team is on a same level with Tottenham? And about chances??? Well I believe that even statistic will say that..
  19. May 12, 2010
    #59

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Great post that. I'm a big fan of Berbatov and I think the level of abuse he gets is excessive, but at this point I wouldn't even try to deny that it hasn't happened for him in the big games and that his confidence looks shot. His other big problem is his lack of versatility. The withdrawn striker role increasingly seems like a luxury for the big teams, and if he's not consistently earning his place it'll very often go to a third midfielder instead. He can't put in a shift out wide and he doesn't have the attitude or physical assets (speed, movement) to replace Rooney as a lone striker particularly effectively. He's yet to show that he can be an effective substitute either. Basically, unless he can turn his form around in his favoured position to the extent that Fergie is compelled to go with 4-4-2 almost all the time, he doesn't have many options in terms of carving out another niche for himself in the squad and restoring his confidence from there.

    Fantastic thread by Twisted Woody as well. I thought the topic had been done to death, but that was a genuinely thought provoking slant on it.
  20. May 13, 2010
    #60

    Chadwick's Acne Banned

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    I am asking how you came to that conclusion...
  21. May 13, 2010
    #61

    ntripunovski Full Member

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    Because I THINK that we are 3 classes better then Tottenham
  22. May 13, 2010
    #62

    Chadwick's Acne Banned

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    :lol:
  23. May 13, 2010
    #63

    ntripunovski Full Member

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    yeeeee I dont know grammer of a foreign language..... What a dissaster.... Wooow.. Its so funny...
  24. May 13, 2010
    #64

    Marcosdeto Moderator

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    Statistics are very nice, but, at least in football, doesnt mean much

    here are Eric Cantona stats, including league, fa cup, CL and carling

    -from wikipedia: Eric Cantona - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -

    year: .............appearences............ goals
    1992/1993............23........................9
    1993/1994............48.......................25
    1994/1995............24.......................13
    1995/1996............38.......................19
    1996/1997............49.......................14

    total games/goals by Eric in his whole career pld: 439 scrd: 162

    total games/goals by Berba in his whole career pld: 419 scrd: 189

    Dimitar Berbatov - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    so if we follow Erics and Bervas stats, Berva is better than Cantona

    are we that wrong about Eric? was he not that good? or is it that statistic shows a very little portion of what a player should be?
  25. May 13, 2010
    #65

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    I'm certain if you added in assist stats of Cantona and Berbatov that would look miles different. Besides, stats without proper context can be very misleading.


    Bottom line the stats show Berbatov is no where near as poor as many claim. His problem has been not performing at optimum capacity often enough like he did at Spurs. But people keep trying to turn that into something else.
  26. May 13, 2010
    #66

    Chadwick's Acne Banned

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    I'm not laughing at your grammar, I'm laughing at how you've come to the conclusion that a football team is 3x better than another.
  27. May 13, 2010
    #67

    Chadwick's Acne Banned

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    The difference with Cantona is that he was undoubtedly the catalyst behind the dominance United have had over the last 20 years, he took a team that was almost there and took them onto the next level. That 'X' factor that every team needs was brought into the side by him and he was inspirational to the younger players already in the side and coming through.

    Berbatov, on the other hand, has come into an extremely successful side with players who are already established and regarded as at least his equal, which I believe has been part of the problem.

    During his time at Tottenham, Berbatov had the Cantona effect on his teammates, of that there is no doubt.
  28. May 13, 2010
    #68

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    There is that too. But what I was trying to say is his goal tally was jack shit compared to what he brought to the table overall. I feel if Berbatov performs to optimum capacity consistently for us, his overall impact would also out weight his goals.
    Possibly. IMO the lack of runners in our midfield hasn't helped him much. Neither has the fact he has been first choice cover for Rooney in our lone striker formation. Which is built to support Rooney's strengths and not his,

    Indeed. It was similar when he as on song.
  29. May 13, 2010
    #69

    Ringo 07 Full Member

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    His weakness`s are a lack of impact in big games and a lack of goal threat in important games!! Other than that he is useful to have against teams outside the top 6! He just looks like he doesnt want to be at OT anymore! If we could replace him for quality then I am all for getting rid of him but I think he could do well next season playing with another striker instead of Rooney in smaller league games. Maybe playing with Rooney is too overwhelming for him like when Ronnie only started playing great when he didnt have the pressure of having t pass to Ruud all the time!
  30. May 13, 2010
    #70

    ludvik Full Member

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    War doesn't decide who is right, only who is left.
    God, make it stop. Just sell him and be done with.
  31. May 13, 2010
    #71

    Godfather Full Member

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    Very good post.
  32. May 13, 2010
    #72

    Redrage Full Member

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    Completely understand what you're talking about. At some point of the season even I went berserk and in all fairness he isn't doing his talent any justice. There are many things he could have done well and there are many occasions where you could see it isn't happening for him.
    I reckon next season is the last for him. Do or die.
  33. May 14, 2010
    #73

    Twisted_Woody Full Member

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    Comment from The_Lizard in the newbs

  34. May 14, 2010
    #74

    Chadwick's Acne Banned

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    He should stay in the newbs. :)
  35. May 14, 2010
    #75

    decorativeed Full Member

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    Has this been posted anywhere yet?

    Dimitar Berbatov: I am sure United will buy a new striker | Football | The Guardian


    I don't generally criticise Berbatov, but his comments are in stark contrast to recent ones we've heard from Nani and Evra. He doesn't seem to appreciate what it means to play for United in my opinion.
  36. May 14, 2010
    #76

    Chadwick's Acne Banned

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    We get it, you hate the lad, give it up.
  37. May 14, 2010
    #77

    esmufc14 9 Pages of infractions

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    He said he's reached the top with United, i.e. he's at the best club he can be, nothing about reaching his 'goal'. You really don't think he wants to add more medals to his collection?
  38. May 14, 2010
    #78

    Chadwick's Acne Banned

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    Don't be silly, if this was the case it wouldn't fit with the hater's agenda. ;)
  39. May 14, 2010
    #79

    Chadwick's Acne Banned

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    Maybe because the questions posed in the two interviews were completely different based on the fact that both players are in different situations just now. The media play on the feelings of the populace/fanbase. You want blood, you'll get blood. You want tears, you'll get tears. You want happiness, you'll get page 3.

    Nani appears to have won over the fans and seems to be getting better every week - Equals positive interview

    Berbatov appears to have lost the fans and seems to be losing confidence every week - Equals negative interview

    Let's not let reality get in the way of your agenda though. ;)
  40. May 14, 2010
    #80

    esmufc14 9 Pages of infractions

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    Players are different. Berbatov has always struck me as a Scholes-type character in that he likes to keep himself to himself pretty much, whereas Nani reminds me more of Ronaldo.

    Seriously, you're argument is pretty crap here.
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