Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by shamans, Mar 14, 2019.
You just do it for free on the internet instead.
And think it makes you different..
Here we go, another poster that see anything other than vilification of Jose as “backing him.” I wanted him gone, but that doesn’t remove the blatant hypocrisy we are seeing here, that doesn’t mean that every little fault the club had during his tenure can attributed to him. Try looking at it objectively for once and get this “us vs them” mentality out of your head. Scholes was always part of the “job for the boys” crew and he was clearly annoyed the job wasn’t given to Giggs.
I never said they are the start nor end of Manchester United. They are part of our identity and have been instrumental in our success. It's nothing against Sir Matt nor Sir Alex, if anything it's their reward for building a legacy.
It's not so much about who they are but more the fact that a great many posters dislike virtually everybody and are critical of everybody, empowered by being behind a keyboard where they think they gain points by tearing others down or by using the word cnut. You only have to see the Match Day thread to see this.
When saying that you are backing Jose I don't say that you don't want him gone, but the comments you made are clearly backing him. I don't say that everything that went wrong under his tenure is down to Jose, he clearly wasn't backed in the last transfer window and he shouldn't have got a contract extension, but he surely dug his own grave in the end.
I don't really feel this "us vs them" mentality as I don't get who "them" should be. We're are all supporters and are entitled to have our own opinions, just because I don't agree with you, and vice versa, don't automatically make it "us vs them".
And I mean that you can't really compare the comments made by Scholes to Jose's. Jose was the manager and shouldn't be outright disrespectful towards the club. And I won't say that to treat Scholes and Jose different is "hypocrisy", Scholes is one of our own and should be treated as such, just as most of us are biased towards other aspects of the club.
I am not totally understand the point of your post but:
You won't find me criticising our current player as hard as Gary Neville anywhere in/out the internet.
I am (as well as all member of redcafe and other medium) not in position of influencing people, what I said here mean nothing. What Gary said can affect our players negatively. I also didn't earn money talking shit about United. That's the different.
Your point please?
I find it funny that instead of arguing or discussing whatever said in the post, you two put in 2 oneliner that have almost nothing to do with my post. If that's your way of arguing/discussing then good for you I guess. I am a newbie so can't posting much to reply you two anyway. My point still stand.
Aye, that's the truth.
For me the Class of 92 have earned the right to say what they want (within reason) because at the end of the day they can put their medals on the table and in most cases its a collection that will surpass most in the modern game.
For the last 5 years they have watched a group of players wearing the Man Utd shirt that haven't reached anywhere near the same standards that they attained as players. Not just in terms of trophies won but at times in terms of giving a **** about the club. I have no problem with them talking about that in the media because when they were in the same position effort was never in question.
They should be celebrated instead of mocked. You would thought 6 years of 4th to 6th would have made people more grateful for all they did for this club.
Social media ruined 'legends'. They are far too visible, legends of previous eras were untouchable to the common guy, now we get to hear their stupid opinions on everything, form Brexit to what's for breakfast.
You're not going to get many ex players who are universally loved and respected like Charlton anymore, we know far too much about them now and they aren't perfect. Unless they engage with the fans like Evra does, or basically say nothing like Beckham - a lot of ex players are going to rub people the wrong way.
This is so very true.
Take Kyrie Irving for example. Dude has a mean 3pt shot, but he thinks the Earth is flat. No way I can respect him now.
Roy Keane hit the nail on the head regarding the class of 92
Phil Neville comes across as a snake never to be trusted, also he was not even part of the class of 92
Isn't it possible to applaud them for their achievements on the pitch and criticize them for being shite pundits / managers / people?
The world isn't binary is it?
I feel like I've posted on this story numerous times but again, Scholes once refused to play in a league cup match as he thought he was above it: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/15123433
This holier than thou attitude from the class of 92 is what irks, and while I wouldn't mock their failures, I don't think they're beyond criticism. They weren't perfect and I'm sure they had their own issues behind the scenes, it's just that we as a club were better at keeping things in house under Fergie.
We all love the Class of 92, those who don't, feck off.
You can love and respect them for what they did for us as players, and be critical of what they say or do after their playing career, whitout being disrespectful or a "hater".
People need to stop being so fecking sensitive and butt hurt.
Not read much about the Scholes things at Oldham, but if he did something stupid, well, nothing wrong with pointing it out, most on here still rate him as one of the best United players ever.
Giggs fecked up with his sister in law (literally), he's still also one of the best ever United players, and truly a legend for us too.
Have these former players ever said anything as bad as many people of this forum full of United ‘supporters’? The problem for viewers is there’s no qualifications to become a pundit, some are quite good with analysis and most are utter shite.
Feel for Scholesy not succeeding, the same way I wanted Neville to do well at Valencia. Regardless of what they say as a pundit, you’d want your former players to have a successful career in football once they retire.
Ridiculing them after they’ve taken the tough career choice to try and become a manager rather than having a piss life as a pundit will only put players off from going into management in the future too.
Oh yes, Phil Nev was and is such a snake. So much that he was one of the players Sir Alex trusted to never let him or the team down and to play whatever position he was asked to with the exception of goalkeeper.
Phi Nev always did what he was asked. He didn't gripe about it to any media contacts, didn't act like a prima donna but was prepared to go on the pitch when the manager needed him, like his brother was so proud to pull on the shirt of Manchester United. It was never about money for the Neville brothers - that was just something that came with the honour of playing for United. He actually came with David Moyes to United because he knew the club inside-out and Moyes at least showed some judgement bringing Phil along when he became manager.
Phil And Gary Neville Are Reds!
Exactly this. Also they were disrespectful to Van Gaal at times always clearly pushing the Giggs for manager narrative. I really didn’t like that to be honest
I think it maybe stems from the fact a section of the fan base wasn't around to see this group of players coming through so they aren't attached to them/gutted they didn't see them coming through. Also a case of "What have you done for me lately"?.
That right there is resentment, if not contempt. You know they didn't come up with that "brand", do you?
It’s only a game, ffs. Go easy.
To be fair, even when I never thought Giggs was the answer I could always see the angle of the importance of getting the club and the way it should go about things.
We were all pretty worried when Moyes eviscerated our backroom staff, but what did we know? We are the same people who kept acknowledging we were as blind as a bat in a thread on "What does Mike Phelan do?".
These guys sure as hell knew what Phelan, and René, and others, did. If anything, the way things are suddenly starting to click in terms of seeing our old United back makes that backing of Giggs a lot more agreeable.
Glad it's Ole though, he has the right temperament to go along with just "getting us".
Just pick a fecking side, refuse to concede anything and get ranting. You know how this works.
We all loved watching them, but there mostly a right moany bunch with far too much negativity. Scholes looks like a smacked arse every time I suffer through a half-time analysis.
The problem was he didn't offer any more nuance than the average fan. We could all have gone 'yeah, it's crap' but he's paid to explain why.
Your average pundit then. Burn him!
Sad to see this its ok to say yer they are a bad but to celebrate it or diss them e g. If its carragher or gerrard, yer we can as they are rivals same if rivals taunt our legends. but we can admit they failed but they are our club legends and shouldnt celebrate it.
It's like Keane said. They've made themselves into a brand. It's like they think they've transcended the club or something and we should all support them seperately form Manchester United. I respect what they did as players and I've got no real dislike for any of them, but they put themselves up there to be criticised so that's what's going to happen.
I loved Scholes as a player but he isn't shy of criticising our players or managers. Then he takes a manager's role and resigns by whatsapp message after a month. That's always going to attract some stick. I mean what a weird thing to do. It's the behaviour of a spoilt child. Neville talks an absolutely astonishing amount of shite. It's fine because it's what he's paid to do, but if he was a poster on here for example, he'd be even more annoying than Gladston. Giggs shagged his brother's wife.
What I find weird is the selectiveness on here. Criticising Scholes for example is a sin, but you'll actually get more stick for defending Roy Keane, and you'd be laughed off the forum for defending Rooney. Meanwhile Patrice Evra could karate kick a child in the head and people would probably say that's why they love him. Everything is in extremes on here. I mean why am I not allowed to love Paul Scholes but at the same time think what he did at Oldham was a bit dickish?
I am refraining from judging Scholesy at this point re the Oldham resignation because we really don't know what went on. But for heavens' sake, have an opinion if you like! The caf has been cleaned up enough. If you think that he now knows what it's like to manage and maybe will be less critical of managers who have done or are doing far tougher, far more high profile, in the spotlight jobs than little Oldham, go ahead and say it freely.
I think your posts are very different from the hatchet jobs that some posters do on United legends and heroes. So Keano had a go at the class of 92................so what. The United Legend is entitled to his opinion. Ex-players do not have to and should not have to form a clique whereby they all flatter each other and won't give a real opinion.
As for Gary and Scholesy's punditry - I don't know how anybody can sit and listen to Sounness and Carragher running their mouths and call Gary and Scholesy moaners, bitter etc. Gary Nev always backs up what he says even if some don't agree with him - he is logical even if his point of view is not acceptable to some. Scholesy likewise has his own style and it is fairly muted. He clearly was never that comfortable with being negative about anybody or anything but it was his job to say what he thought.
But the whingeing, griping style of Sounness and Carragher is something else. Especially Sounness' bitter air and Carragher's annoying high-pitched denunciations. Keano is always himself as a pundit and he doesn't and never will sound like the two ex Liverpool whingers.
The mistake they all made was having lives after playing. They should have all died after retirement. Then they'd be unconditionally revered.
Ha - love the Scholesy comparison with a 'smacked arse'!
I tried my best to come up with a valid counter to this post, but the logic is just too strong.
So the mistake is not his but the network in employing him. He is rather laconic and did his best work on the pitch. I don’t know why we expected him to change.
This is a bit cringeworthy in itself tbh. I mean, I totally understand the sentiment, but our club didn’t start with the Class of 92’.
I don’t see anyone say a bad word against Rio for example. The likes of Keane, Scholes and Neville never seem to have a kind word to say about the club, and I think fundamentally, this is the reason why some mock/criticise them or whatever. If anything, it is more down to the interpretation of some fans about their loyalty to the club. Sir Alex, obviously not the same, doesn’t go around laying into us. On the few occasions he does speak, he gives off the appearance of very much ‘one of us’. Being a United player is one thing, but take Mark Hughes for example - there is nothing about the way he carries himself that demonstrates much fondness of us, and some fans will pick up on and reciprocate that sort of thing.
Let’s not pretend that Scholes was just a United legend who went into management and all United fans wished him ill. He’s a United legend who crossed over to the mainstream, and for me, joined the ranks of our enemies almost. I see people like Keown or Summerbee, Souness even. Pretty clear where they have nailed their flags. Scholes hasn’t been in that category. You speak about United as some sort of neutral, and there will be United fans who treat you like one.
There are some people you admire what they've achieved and some people you admire for who they are.
It is perfectly possible for have tons of admiration and respect for Giggs the player whilst still not respecting him as a man due to incidents on his personal life for example.
I think there really is now a disconnection between the men who played for us and the brand - business and media - that they've created. As soon as it sounds like I have to take them as a package deal, I baulk at it.
When I view them as individuals, I've no problem. When I view them as a manifestation of club policy on youth development, I see them as a triumph. When I look at them as a real estate, football team ownership, punditry, job agency, lobby group, TV production company - I cringe. There are good things and bad in there and I'm not surprised if some fans feel a bit of Schadenfreude when one of their projects goes belly up.
Me, I like Scholes, and I like Neville, even if I'm not fond of their over-exposed brand. It didn't surprise me that their management adventures didn't work out. Most managers fail. Most managers have to go through a series of learning experiences before they're ready to succeed.
Personally, I don't like the CO92 pundit crew doing more than analysing a game. As soon as they start talking about those things about attitude or personality, that aren't about what we're seeing on the screen, it bothers me. Why? Because unlike us lot on here, who we all know have zero idea about what's going on behind the scenes, their words get extra credibility/visibility because of who they are. People imagine them to have special insider knowledge and that means they're taken too seriously. When it turns out they don't know the whole story (or when they turn out to be nothing special when they try to do a job themselves) we're bound to be more critical, because we took them too seriously before.
Scholes is one of my fav players and one of the best mc in PL history. But for all the crap that he said against every our manager and for criticism from day one, he deserves bashing. Same goes for Neville.
On the other hand, Becks, Giggs, Butt have all respect from any United fan. Never said bad word about manager or players.
Separate names with a comma.