Do great managers eventually fail due to stubbornness?

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by shamans, Feb 14, 2018.

  1. Feb 14, 2018
    #1

    shamans Hoser

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,725
    Location:
    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    When you are achieving greatness you do what you think is best and just don't listen to others. Then finally, you get there the way you thought was best even though everyone doubted your methods. That stubbornness and belief in oneself is almost a strength

    But does it one day turn into a weakness, when things are really not working out and it's obvious for everyone to see but these managers still believe they can overcome it since they have done it their way before?

    Think about Wenger or LVG. How frustrating was it to see LVG play a style and tactic that made no sense to us or how Wenger refuses to sign some proper players.

    Could this be an issue for Jose as well? Playing 4231 when everyone agrees it is crap, why would he listen? Like I said, these are guys who achieved greatness by not listening to the majority. This stubbornness I think later on becomes a negative unless you are just too damn good like SAF.
  2. Feb 14, 2018
    #2

    RexHamilton Gumshoe for hire

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    3,751
    If we sign another midfielder and play 433 with pogba being the most advanced of the 3, is it that much different than signing a new midfielder and playing pogba as the 10 in a 4231?
  3. Feb 14, 2018
    #3

    United never give up Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2017
    Messages:
    196
    This 4231/433 debate obsession is getting ridiculous now - the problems are far more deep rooted than a simple change in formation.
  4. Feb 14, 2018
    #4

    shamans Hoser

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,725
    Location:
    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    I am talking generally. How and why managers like Wenger and LVG go from success to nothing
  5. Feb 14, 2018
    #5

    FujiVice Full Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2013
    Messages:
    4,733
    A lot fail by coming out of their comfort zone as well though. I get why you'd want to stick with the formula that has served you well previously.
  6. Feb 14, 2018
    #6

    SirAF Ageist

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2003
    Messages:
    26,562
    Location:
    Transfer Muppet of the Year
    Wenger has made a lot of mistakes, but I believe the sugar daddy era was the real end of him. Keep the financial status quo and he would be the closest rival to United still.
  7. Feb 14, 2018
    #7

    E-mal New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2017
    Messages:
    424
    All great empires or civilization eventually meet their end.
    Knowledge itself is fleetin, what was really invoke eventually becomes outdated.
    When another younger innovative manager comes along baldie's tiki taka will become obsolete just like LVG'S and Wenger's is now outdated.
    Mourinho's style is outdated, people don't wanna accept it but is obvious.
  8. Feb 14, 2018
    #8

    shamans Hoser

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,725
    Location:
    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    I'd put that down to stubbornness. He just believed he could still do it with youth and flashy players.
  9. Feb 14, 2018
    #9

    E-mal New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2017
    Messages:
    424
    He was well bankrolled in his prime, just like Jose is and Fergie before him. Is Pep's time now.
  10. Feb 14, 2018
    #10

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2013
    Messages:
    15,284
    Location:
    New York
    People tend to become more risk adverse when they get older so I think it is the same with managers
  11. Feb 14, 2018
    #11

    Drawfull Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2014
    Messages:
    1,217
    Location:
    Just close your eyes, forget your name
    "How many ways can we rephrase the subject line because we lost a few games of football"
  12. Feb 14, 2018
    #12

    Sunny Jim Full Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    26,238
    Location:
    Warsaw...that's too far away from Edinburgh...
    Fergie was anythibg but stubnorn, his teams evolved dozens of times. He even tried to fix something that wasnt broken (the introduction of a 5 man midfield -Veron)
  13. Feb 14, 2018
    #13

    shamans Hoser

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,725
    Location:
    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    What I meant to say is he was stubborn in his ways. I remember everyone pressurizing him to buy quality in his later years and play different type of players. He didn't listen and he won.
  14. Feb 14, 2018
    #14

    shamans Hoser

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,725
    Location:
    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    If this is honestly your input to this topic why bother. I don't get it.
  15. Feb 14, 2018
    #15

    Crashoutcassius Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    Messages:
    5,434
    Location:
    playa del carmen
    you can't tell forums that... football is played on paper remember
  16. Feb 14, 2018
    #16

    Steven7290 Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2013
    Messages:
    932
    Location:
    Boston
    The thing you have to have is utter control and backing from the management. If you have it like SAF did, I'm not saying SAF is not flexible in his formations and tactics, it is way easier to be stubborn and still successful as you get to buy the players you really want, get rid of those you don't no matter how influential they are, no players politics and therefore maximize whatever you have planned.
  17. Feb 14, 2018
    #17

    Rifer Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2017
    Messages:
    2,977
    Location:
    Losing to Comeback Winning!
    Retaining some dose of "stubbornness" is essential, especially if their formula actually works.

    To still be the very best, they need to take in "adaptation" pills.

    Eg. SAF is still stubborn in his beliefs and own way of developing/playing young players and playing attacking football, yet we see him adapting to the newer eras of football by playing more conservative and trying out new formations.
  18. Feb 14, 2018
    #18

    Janson Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,138
    Location:
    Sweden
    I'm glad someone noticed it. First it was "ruining Martial" that was the problem, then people got obsessed with playing Rashford and Martial together. Now that's a distant memory, we have the 433 thing. When we start playing 433 and it doesn't work then it will be the next thing and so on.

    As you say, our problems are way deeper than just Pogba being restricted.
  19. Feb 14, 2018
    #19

    Josep Dowling Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,970
    If they don’t adapt then yes.

    I feel this is basically a thread to say Jose is stubborn but had to mention a few other names so it does not feel like another bash at Mourinho.
  20. Feb 14, 2018
    #20

    Janson Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,138
    Location:
    Sweden
    This could have gone in the dinosaur thread really.

    Who is it you are expecting these top professionals at their job should listen to? People on the internet? They are who they are because they have earned that position through doing what they always were.
  21. Feb 14, 2018
    #21

    Janson Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2016
    Messages:
    5,138
    Location:
    Sweden
    None of those managers methods are outdated. Give them Barcelona, City or Psg money and they will be up there at the top.
  22. Feb 14, 2018
    #22

    RooneyLegend Full Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2013
    Messages:
    7,528
    New age managers are obsessed with coaching is they'll eventually fade away when better ideas come along. I've never seen a genuine coach that you could call adaptable. Perhaps Jupp?
  23. Feb 15, 2018
    #23

    gibers Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2017
    Messages:
    615
    Location:
    UK
    Except Pep is using Cruyff's Philosphy. The idea will never be outdated, the execution might not work. I agree on LVG though. The thing about Peps work is that he has shown he can adapt it to multiple leagues with different kinds of players whilst retaining the basic concept. The execution changed.
  24. Feb 15, 2018
    #24

    JK-27 Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2017
    Messages:
    633
    SAF was successfull over a 20 year period. Did he change his ways? No. He's well known for his stubborness.

    Statistically, Jose is on par with Sir Alex is terms of his career (some would say ahead, given he's also won Serie A and La Liga, and the CL with two different teams). And he's done it in a shorter time window.

    The game has changed - more teams, more games, more money = more competition.

    It's been a weird few years in the Prem (Chelsea champions one season, mid table next, Leicester in a relegation battle, champions the next etc.), and it's been a bizarre year across Europe this year (City, Bayern, PSG, Barcelona, Juventus/Napoli are all 10+ points ahead in their respective leagues), so it's not just City who are walking their way to a league win, it's happening in all the top 4 leagues and even other leagues. Wolves are 10+ points ahead in the Championship. PSV are 7 points ahead in the Eredivisie. Brugge are 10+ points ahead in the Belgian league. Lokomotiv Moscow are 8 points ahead in the Russian Premier League. Something funny is going on!
  25. Feb 15, 2018
    #25

    Bubz27 ACMarket employee

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,724
    A manager isn't great if they aren't able to adapt.
  26. Feb 15, 2018
    #26

    RC89 Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,971
    You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

    (Unless you're SAF)
  27. Feb 15, 2018
    #27

    shamans Hoser

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,725
    Location:
    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    You did not even read the OP. I clearly said that this stubbornness is justified because of the success they have achieved likely through the same stubbornness. I am not bashing managers here but bringing to light how great/successful managers can develop stubbornness in their ways.
  28. Feb 15, 2018
    #28

    Halds Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2016
    Messages:
    324
    Location:
    Denmark
    Supports:
    Liverpool FC
    I think the op has a point. If you don't adapt and evolve, you go backwards. Ferguson certainly adapted and evolved during his time at Man United. He built 3 great teams on his way, with their own shape and charachter. Wasn't it Ferguson who said, that it's harder to stay on the top, than actually getting there?

    Although he still won you league titles, some of the magic had gone the last few years, and it looked like even he was coming to where he found it hard to keep up evolving.

    You can be very succesful, but if you don't evolve, others will learn from you, build on your ideas, and eventually beat you, while you rested on your laurels.

    When you have made it to the top in an extreme competitive environment, I think it's human nature, that you become immune to what ordinary people like you and me think. Why would you listen to others, when you have proved that you are the best at what you're doing? Who can you learn from, when you are the best?

    Hodgson was obviously not one of the best around, but I still remember, how he sounded like a dinosaur, when he was losing the plot at Liverpool and said this..

    '.. I don't think I have suddenly changed or lost any ability which has served me so well in 35 years of coaching'.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/oct/05/roy-hodgson-liverpool-manager-faith
  29. Feb 15, 2018
    #29

    ghagua Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    5,194
    Yes they do. Unless they are able to adapt like Fergie used to do. We saw it with LvG, Wenger and we are seeing it with Mourinho.
  30. Feb 15, 2018
    #30

    deafepl Full Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    2,120
    I am very aware that we don't have players for 4-3-3

    1. You can't play your best-left winger martial on the right where he can't perform so well on the right flank and you know it.

    2. You can't use Lukaku as target man when we want to dominate possession, he's more effective when we attempting a lot of crosses coming from fullback or winger or hoof it to Lukaku, otherwive, there's no point in using him in dominating possession and we didn't play to his strength. Martial should have been playing this as 9 in possession based.

    3. You can't play Lingard for relies on his brilliant moment that creates a goal out from nothing, Lingard is not pure 10 that will link midfield and attack well and are not a playmaker, he's a pure profiler as attacking midfielder like Fekr, not like Ozil or Erikson.

    4. You can't be wanting Pogba to be a playmaker, bring the ball forward, join attacker in the third final, pick a magic pass, tackle, protect at back and defend at same time, multitask for Pogba, but honestly, Is it really okay to force Pogba to do everything you want from him but not Matic? Pogba is suited as the box to box player in 2 midfield but if you want Pogba to do everything, use more midfielder to share responsibility tasks or go 3-5-2 if wanting to use two midfielders only but will free some of Pogba's defensive responsibility with 5 defenders at back with one of them may join midfield battle like Lindelof who are good on balls while being calm under pressure or Lingard/Sanchez to come deep to help and press high.

    5 Press high will force opponents to make mistakes, an example of City vs Liverpool 3-4 and Porto vs Liverpool 0-5. like we did against Arsenal, we forced them to make a mistake instead of waiting for them to make mistakes, it has worked for us, why didn't you take that approach to opponents?

    6. If our right flank is underperforming, nobody can do that so well on the right flank, assuming you want Sanchez to play on left, why bother using 4-2-3-1? Use 3-5-2 formation will bring out best of everyone, most of the games we focused on the left flank where we attack but it becomes more predictable for opponents as it goes, we didn't attack the right flank as often as it is underperforming since the start of the season, yet you didn't address this issue. I don't know why 4-2-3-1 is necessary, it is like we are playing with 10 men but that's the truth.

    However, the 3-5-2 formation will take less defensive out of Pogba and give them freedom with 5 defenders at back including wingback but will do his defensive job if he's not overwhelmed with the work you asked him to do everything as I mentioned previously. Our 3-5-2 form record is pretty good, we played that formation 7 time this season and have won 6 games out of 7 games and lost once. I failed to see how you didn't use this formation against City and Spurs when it matters instead of 4231. 3-5-2 is more effective than 4-2-3-1.

    Yeah, you are failing us due to stubbornness.
  31. Feb 15, 2018
    #31

    Greck Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2016
    Messages:
    2,062
    SAF adjusted. Countless times for that matter.
  32. Feb 15, 2018
    #32

    B20 HALA MADRID!

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2003
    Messages:
    22,403
    Location:
    Disney Land
    Supports:
    Liverpool
    Indeed. The football you played in the 90s was quite different to how you played in the 00s. Especially in Europe.

    The way he set up with Rooney and Ronaldo would never have happened in the 90s either. Perhaps to Giggs detriment. Have to wonder what he could have been if he had been trained for a more expansive role than touchline winger in his younger days.

    He went from having an old-fashioned first team with backups to, once the foreign managers had taken the brunt of criticism for 'squad rotation' from slackjawed mouthbreathing British commentators, being the most frequent squad rotator in Europe.

    Some things he stayed stubborn on. Others not at all.
  33. Feb 15, 2018
    #33

    Thisistheone Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2010
    Messages:
    7,077
    Fergie also changed up his coaching staff and number 2 quite often, keeping himself on his toes with fresh ideas. From what I can see, Jose stil has the same staff as his early days?
  34. Feb 15, 2018
    #34

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

    Joined:
    May 10, 2009
    Messages:
    12,410
    Fergie changed his assistant manager as they left the position, not by choice. At least the most prominent ones like Kidd, Steve McClaren, carlos queiroz they all left to become managers.
  35. Feb 15, 2018
    #35

    Eckers99 Michael Corleone says hello

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2014
    Messages:
    2,296
    Fergie was ruthless enough to change his assistant a few times over the years and, by his own admission, learned to delegate more over time. Maybe Jose needs to think about changing the coaching setup, if he wants to evolve.
  36. Feb 15, 2018
    #36

    FootyGirl88

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2018
    Messages:
    4,495
    I agree, it seems like Jose and Wenger have had the same backroom staff for ages. I think both should freshen up their back room staff. How long has Rui Faria been apart of Jose's team now?
  37. Feb 15, 2018
    #37

    Oldyella Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    1,581
    And lets face it, he was in the job so long that no one would of stayed his number 2 for all that time. Mourinho has moved quite often so his coaching team have moved with him, fair enough. I do think some fresh impetus is needed somewhere though, even aside from the last couple of games where it seems like everyone is out of form at once, our attacking play has been functional at best.
  38. Feb 15, 2018
    #38

    Cassidy No longer at risk of being mistaken for a Scouser

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    14,723
    Great managers adapt
  39. Feb 15, 2018
    #39

    Thisistheone Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2010
    Messages:
    7,077
    True. His assistant left but wasn't he always looking for new coaches and fresh ideas? Rene came in and did a wonderful job.

    It was just a thought. Working with the same group for 15 years can have benefits but also disadvantages.
  40. Feb 15, 2018
    #40

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

    Joined:
    May 10, 2009
    Messages:
    12,410
    Yeah I think there was some changes in first team coaches. Like you said, added Rene and few others.