Do our players put in the same kind of shift as the teams above us?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Fortitude, Apr 14, 2019.

  1. Apr 14, 2019
    #1

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    Having watched City earlier, Spurs yesterday and Liverpool just now, a common theme was that their players, no matter how good/rated, bust a gut for the team. There's no moping, no seeming indifference and no ego, is this snapshot correct?

    It looks like win, draw or lose, they can come off the pitch with their heads held high. Can our players say the same?

    I am asking this based on an observation, perhaps skewed by how we've been for a few games in the league now. If they are putting in a greater shift, is it down to workrate/fitness or is there something more to it?
  2. Apr 14, 2019
    #2

    Raees Legal Guardian of the Football forums

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    Fred, Lindelof, McTominay and Rashford probably only ones who show same level of workrate IMO and possibly Herrera too.
  3. Apr 14, 2019
    #3

    Kostov Full Member

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    Most of them are winners or at least they give me that kind of impression. In our lot there are so many who make me think like they've already made it by playing for Manchester United, even though we are shambles and far behind the best.
  4. Apr 14, 2019
    #4

    KingMinger22 City >>> United. Moaning twat

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    Yes, they do.

    The problem with our players is that they lack ability not effort.
  5. Apr 14, 2019
    #5

    el3mel Full Member

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    Not against small teams that's for sure but against big teams we usually put a shift.

    However our players are arrogant bunch that usually think they don't have to put much effort against midtable and bottom clubs and they have a God given right to win those, so we usually end up with such terrible performances, and start playing after we go behind.

    Though, in big games as I said the mentality improves, probably because they know they don't have this God given right to win as in easy games.
  6. Apr 14, 2019
    #6

    ivaldo Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?

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    Possibly? He works harder than anyone.

    We aren't set up to do the press like Spurs, Liverpool and City. This might change next season after the backroom staff have had a preseason to work on it along with a focus on conditioning, but we wont do it this season. We looked knackered enough yesterday as it is.
  7. Apr 14, 2019
    #7

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    Do you think that's true? Our heads collectively drop and we don't drive, ceaselessly like the other teams do.
    Do you think it's only a matter of pressing? Every action seems to be intense whether it's uniformly executed or not.

    I'd say like they have multiple McTominay's or Herrera's. Dalot seems to have it about him, too. Just the fire in them to drive non-stop no matter what.
  8. Apr 14, 2019
    #8

    Raw Full Member

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    Under Mourinho definitely not. Pretty sure we were like bottom of the distance covered table.

    I'd say we have improved on that, it's just a lot of our players are pretty stupid and can't really do much with the ball.
  9. Apr 14, 2019
    #9

    Leftback99 Full Member

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    I don't think it's quite that simple. Liverpool for example have players that fit a specific system, high energy, high work rate players. If they haven't fit the mould they have shipped them out (eg. Benteke) or not played them (Sturridge). The same with City.

    We have a mix of players that suit different styles. Getting Pogba to bust a gut allover the pitch would be changing how he has played since the youth team.
  10. Apr 14, 2019
    #10

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    What about Spurs, then? Their understudies come in and are really determined, too. I am not talking about quality of the play, per se, just how hard each individual is working and how after a game it'll not be effort you point to as to why the result wasn't a preferred one.
  11. Apr 14, 2019
    #11

    ivaldo Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?

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    No, you're right there's more to it than pressing, but I think it's an essential part of it, and the most visibly noticable. Intensity is the right word. Everything these teams do well they do quickly, chiefly winning the ball back and moving it.
  12. Apr 14, 2019
    #12

    Fosu-Mens Full Member

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    Our team is not near the required fitness/stamina for playing agressive/highpress. Under Mourinho we were bottom 5 in distance covered and sprints during his 2,5 seasons. Prefered to have his fitnesscoach evaluate the players fitness through intuition rater than using gps tracking(something all the other teams in the EPL uses).
    https://trainingground.guru/articles/man-utd-the-only-team-not-to-use-gps-under-mourinho

    Hopefully we will rectify this over the summer, and have a more physically fit squad next season.
  13. Apr 14, 2019
    #13

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

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    Watch how long it took Pogba to get off his arse yesterday when he failed to collect De Gea's roll out, he was practically still getting to his feet when Anderson put it in the net

    In answer to the question no, we've got far too many lazy arse players that barely break sweat during games
  14. Apr 14, 2019
    #14

    Leftback99 Full Member

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    I think once you've got the right mentality throughout the majority of team it's easier to integrate others. Either they have to follow or stand out for not doing so. We've got no leaders and half a team that do work hard and others that clearly don't so it doesn't work.
  15. Apr 14, 2019
    #15

    RedCurry Full Member

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    I doubt anyone watches every team’s all 90 mins, so it’s hard to know for sure without proper stats. But visually, I think our off the ball movement is one of the worst in the league. In attack and in defense.

    I haven’t been able to find running stats for premier league anywhere.
  16. Apr 14, 2019
    #16

    Steerpike Full Member

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    We have too many players who don't seem to put in the required level of effort. Ole has said that he believes a Manchester United team should be heading the stats when it comes to work rate, but I'm not convinced that all of our players are fit enough to achieve that. The laziness that typified the Mourinho era has left a legacy, and maybe it will take another pre-season to shake it off.
  17. Apr 14, 2019
    #17

    Toad Full Member

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    I can only imagine this is the sort of thing Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea fans discuss, which technically puts us in that category. Try their best, but ultimately the mediocrity just gets the better of them. Far too many overrate some of our players, they put in the same shift but just aren’t good enough.
  18. Apr 14, 2019
    #18

    Aloysius's Back 3 Full Member

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    This.

    We have players that suit possession football from LVG period & we have players from the Mourinho period showing a more defensive and attack tenacity and strength.

    Add moyes's players and SAF players & we have a squad of complete mismatches.

    Lukaku is crucial to Jose but is Benteke to every other type of manager. Martial is better with the ball at his feet and in possession than without it. Just few examples of how players don't match.

    We need a style & a philosophy of how our club should play.
  19. Apr 14, 2019
    #19

    hobbers Full Member

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    City and Pool's players put in 150% on what the rest of the top 6 put in. Absolutely no doubt about that.

    Of course, it's not just about the meters sprinted, it's about how intelligently that's applied and how well coordinated it is amongst the team.

    Our players are individually and collectively dumb. Especially the forwards. Lingard and Rashford cover so much ground but it's rare that their pressing is actually executed well. We know Lukaku likes to walk around and point at things while doing bugger all. Martial looks like the concept of off the ball work has never even been explained to him at times.
  20. Apr 14, 2019
    #20

    Raees Legal Guardian of the Football forums

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    Reason why I said possibly is he’s getting on abit and I don’t know if he could do that over an entire season.
  21. Apr 14, 2019
    #21

    Cutch Shit stirrer (Literally)

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    Luke Shaw one of the worst culprits. Depressing when you compare the intensity of his running to the likes of Andy robertson. Martial is another, you wouldn’t know at times he is a supposedly fast player
  22. Apr 14, 2019
    #22

    C'est Moi Cantona Full Member

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    Which surely comes back to the elusive DOF, Then us changing managers, which we are bound to keep doing, won't be such an up hill battle every time.

    You'd think the Glazer's would have demanded this a while ago, as it will ultimately save them money.
  23. Apr 14, 2019
    #23

    Aloysius's Back 3 Full Member

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    It's easier to put the effort when your trained and used to doing what needs to be done as a team.

    We have had a couple months under ole and that's it & players are still trying to adapt to his style.

    Once that style has settled it is easier to see who isn't giving the proper effort. Until then all we are seeing is players that are either just running for the sake of it, not running because of lazyness or tiredness.

    If work rate is what Ole wants - it will take more than a couple months and the same group of players to judge it properly.
  24. Apr 14, 2019
    #24

    LInkash Full Member

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    We tried to be more intense but lead to an injury crisis so we have to be more pragmatic for now.
  25. Apr 14, 2019
    #25

    dannyrhinos89 OMG socks and sandals lol!

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    Not even close.

    We are so lethargic in everything we do.
  26. Apr 14, 2019
    #26

    Aloysius's Back 3 Full Member

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    Yep we need a DOF badly.

    However, the reason I am happy for Ole to have atleast a season here even if we don't do well enough in it is because he himself has talked about the tradition and philosophy of how United should play.

    Success or not - I want this club to have United styled and bred players & there is no way easier now than letting Ole judge which players can do that or not.

    Ideally we should have someone like Ole as our DOF but what can we do than just sit and watch?

    Hopefully Ole targets ' classic type United players' so the next manager has better players to manage than purely players from Moyes, LVG & Jose's heads because that is just a mismatch of ideas.
  27. Apr 14, 2019
    #27

    Heymrtangerineman New Member

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    After years of turgid football it's maybe hard to shake off. I remember the static zombie passing thread! LVG practically had us playing at walking pace at times.
  28. Apr 14, 2019
    #28

    TheRedDevil'sAdvocate Full Member

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    We don't have players who are good at collecting second balls and challenging for 50/50 possessions and we don't have players who can be aggressive when closing down the first attacker anywhere on the pitch.

    Half of the success of the teams you mentioned comes from their players' ability to be aggressive and achieve territorial dominance in the areas they wish to control/initiate attacks. By winning 50/50 challenges, getting first to the second balls and by closing down the first attacker.

    It's not solely a high-pressing thing either. Atletico Madrid defend in a low-block but they aim to force the opposition out-wide and then they hunt the ball down like mad dogs. Leicester won the title in 2016 in a similar fashion. They were very aggressive in their own third of the pitch and this led to more and better counter-attacks.

    That's why we look so nonchalant sometimes on the pitch. Maybe it's a Jose thing but i wouldn't count on being only that. I don't think you can expect to see these attributes from the likes of Mata or Martial for example. And then someone will argue that you can't expect it from all the players on the pitch. While this is true, it brings me to the next big issue. You can give certain players a pass if their contribution is absolutely vital to the team (like Ronnie at Juve). But we don't have such players in the defensive, the middle or in the attacking third. Thus the current frustrations.
  29. Apr 14, 2019
    #29

    ivaldo Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?

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    He's 29.
  30. Apr 14, 2019
    #30

    Idxomer Full Member

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    I haven't seen a team this season in a top league with our complete lack of urgency. It changed a bit when Ole came in but lately we've gone back to the same slow tempo and just trying to get by with the least effort possible.
  31. Apr 14, 2019
    #31

    slored1 New Member

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    In the Premier League the most important skill to have as a team is to get the second balls, 50-50 challenges and have good second and first touches after getting the ball back. Our players in general don't have the ability and skill to do that, especially Matic, Pogba, Martial. That's why we never press when Herrera is out of the team and why our midfield is generally outrun whenever we play against the likes of West Ham, Leicester, Brighton in away games, they simply fight harder than us. As much as I hate to say it, I always understood why Fellaini played that much under Jose, he had the ability to pick up these balls and was useful in most of the away games against midtable sides.
  32. Apr 14, 2019
    #32

    Patrick08 Full Member

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    Its an irony because under Fergie we were the ones who had hard workers all around the squad, Woodward and those out of depth managers have completely screwed the culture of this club in terms of those player recruitment ditching our history all together.

    The likes of Martial Pogba, Matic, Darmian, Fellani, Lukaku Mata just aren't the workhorses we needed and won with in the past.

    Other managers have come in and pretty much followed those Fergie principles in the team and our own out of depth ceo and his choices of managerial candidates have neglected the most crucial part in player recruitment.

    Its embarrassing this team can not last 90 mins in terms of high intensity football and starts slowing he tempo down when there is actual need to increase it
  33. Apr 14, 2019
    #33

    Skills Snitch

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    You are talking about 3 teams who are coached by the 3 best pressing managers in the world. That's what you're then seeing from the players on the pitch.
  34. Apr 14, 2019
    #34

    11101 Full Member

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    We didn't have the fitness under Mourinho. It was something Solskjaer spoke about when he took over and its not something that can be addressed mid season. We won't be able to do anything about it until the summer.
  35. Apr 14, 2019
    #35

    MrSingh2002 Full Member

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    Would you answer yes or no to the following statement....

    "Our players give their all in each match"

    I would answer no today due to recent results and performances.

    When I watch City play I believe their fans could say yes. I believe this season Liverpool fans could say the same. Spurs of the past couple of seasons I believe could say yes.

    We are a level below City and Liverpool in terms of seeing and believing that the players are giving their all. The first 10 games under Ole it was there, but the recent shitshows against Wolves and West Ham have seen some old habits returning.

    Is it down to Guardiola and Klopp that the players are focussed and playing hard? Of course it is. Ole isn't as experienced as them and the honeymoon period is over for him.

    I would've liked it if he had demonstrated that he had a hairdryer at half time in the games vs Wolves and West Ham but it doesn't appear that he has.

    If Ole needs transfer windows and hundreds of millions of pounds then he's just the same as Mourinho, LVG or any other manager. There's no shame in that as Pep and Klopp have spent money to get to where they are now but Ole can't be seen as the Messiah.

    If he needs to change the squad to see results then so be it. It just goes to show Ferguson was several levels above all the current managers in the league. We all know he would've probably won the league with the current United squad.

    He would've got more outtve some of our players like Pogba, Martial and Lingard than is currently. What a manager. I can only hope he encourages Ole to challenge the players to raise their performance levels. If there's any kind of communication between them then I'm sure he'll be doing just that. It's the only reason why I'm happy with the current setup. Because it means Fergies having a say in how United play and behave!
  36. Apr 14, 2019
    #36

    thejtrain Full Member

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    I honestly don't think we do. It's a combination of some players not being capable, others not wanting to, and the manager(s) not demanding. We almost never press, regardless of the importance of the game and the quality of the opposition. It's easy to see that this has a direct impact on our dominance in the game.
  37. Apr 14, 2019
    #37

    Treble Full Member

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    This is discussed in a thread called "Workrate". We are 18th in the distance covered table and 14th in the most sprints table. The other top 6 teams are doing much better, especially Liverpool which is a major reason why they are going strong in the league.
  38. Apr 14, 2019
    #38

    acnumber9 Full Member

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    All power has been handed to the players now. They know they can outlast a manager so they don’t have the authority they need. Keeping players happy has become more important than winning games.
  39. Apr 14, 2019
    #39

    WR10 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Well what you're seeing recently is the ultimate form of internal and external motivation for a PL title causing them to run themselves to the ground.

    However, what you also see with City and Liverpool are patterns of play that have such an absurdly superior level of quality associated with them. Their overall technical ability in tight spaces and speed of thought/decision is miles above any other teams I see in the premier league.

    We could run 20 Kms more than City and Liverpool every game in the season and still not match that sort of quality.
  40. Apr 14, 2019
    #40

    MrSingh2002 Full Member

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    They're well coached. You are correct in that it's not just about distance covered or sprints made. Let's see how good of a coach Ole is. He's had his short term boost to the squad now let's see what he's made of in terms of whether he can coach a team successfully and develop a style of play.