Do we have a rat or are we seeing the start of something worse?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by andersj, Jul 8, 2019.

  1. Jul 8, 2019
    #81

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Well no one is saying we should be running at high intensity for full 90 mins. It's about management, doesn't mean you have pathetic fitness that you end up last in everything. It's obvious to anyone who watched Manutd how much we lacked in fitness.

    Liverpool were 5th in distance covered this season, Tottenham 8th, Chelsea 10th, City 12th. Manutd 20th
    Sprints - Liverpool 1st, City 5th, Spurs 8th. ManUtd 14th.

    You don't have to outrun everytime, you have to match them for intensity and work rate when needed. Barca was also one of the hardest working team when Pep was the manager, they didn't have "we are Barca, we don't run" attitude.
  2. Jul 8, 2019
    #82

    Zoo Full Member

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    He’s crap. His articles are incredibly dull.
  3. Jul 8, 2019
    #83

    Bestietom Full Member

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    We need Forest Gump.
  4. Jul 8, 2019
    #84

    HTG Full Member

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    They were able to do that, because they dictated the pace of the game, rotated quite a bit, and were able to relax thanks to high leads. All those things don't apply to you. If you have to match the intensity of Watford or Wolverhampton, in order to win, you have serious issues that go far beyond conditioning.
    I'm not saying OGS is doing everything wrong. I don't know that. I'm simply saying that I would lean towards the players when it comes to this. They have a lot of exoerience and can judge these things quite well. I just think there's more to this, than the old sentiment, that the players are just lazy.
  5. Jul 8, 2019
    #85

    DoomSlayer Full Member

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    Why do you as a Bayern fan comment on our squad's fitness situation when you clearly know nothing about it?

    We've been the laziest team in the PL since Mourinho came in, both in terms of distance covered and sprints per game. Your patronising tone is not really warranted as you probably don't even watch us regularly to be able to give such a nonsensical opinion.

    Under Ole, each game the team got gassed after 55-60 minutes played whilst doing it in somewhat expected tempo, which unfortunately meant we had to drop deep or leave huge holes at the back and midfield at times. We have severe fitness issues, also our injury problems were severely bad even when we barely run under Mourinho, which makes me believe that there is something wrong in our medical and conditioning departments.

    And the fact you are saying that our squad full of perpetual losers, egotists, permanently injured players should be listened to for its' "expertise and experience" is so insanely laughable that I can only assume you are a WUM.
  6. Jul 8, 2019
    #86

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Lean towards what? Did anyone say anything?

    Maybe you ar comparing this with Bayern situation where players worked under Pep, heynckes and then complained about training under Ancelotti and Kovac. This is nothing like that. In fact no one even complained.

    Regarding general point, you are just clutching now. I have given you stats and everything. Liverpool don't have big squad.
  7. Jul 8, 2019
    #87

    HTG Full Member

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    I have seen this. What I said still applies. They have extended periods of possession and often have comfortable leads. They tend to take the foot off the gas at the end of many games. That helps.
  8. Jul 8, 2019
    #88

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    And somehow made most sprints than anyone, covered 5th most distance in the league.

    To achieve that comfortable lead, they play with intensity and then take foot off the gas

    Their manager himself admitted everything they do is based on physical potential and it's not even some secret. Everyone knows Liverpool are the fittest team in the league and possibly Europe.
  9. Jul 8, 2019
    #89

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Not WUM, just made nonsense "I understand Modern training" post and then kept digging with each post.

    Most laughable part was "you are manutd, you shouldn't run" sort of sums up that he never watched us play.
  10. Jul 8, 2019
    #90

    André Dominguez Full Member

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    Double sessions during pre-season is pretty much a common thing in every club and sport, so can't really see the players complaining about it.

    This seems pretty much media BS tbh.
  11. Jul 8, 2019
    #91

    r3idy Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Agree with this. At the moment it's pre season, not a whole lot of football going on, they need to keep writing to remain relevant.

    Sports Journalism (and I say Journalism in the very loosest sense of the word) is as much more about steering the narrative, creating the headlines and less about reporting the facts. Last Monday night Neil Custis was on Talksport with Simon Jordan. He was absolutely brutal in his assessment, If Ole gets off to a bad start, let's say two draws, 1 defeat, and 1 win. The headlines won't be he has won 1 in 4, it will be Solsjkaer under massive pressure as he now has one win last twenty (taking into account end of last season). Presenter and Jordan challenged him on it and to say he was unapologetic would be an understatement.

    Lets make no bones about it, Last season was an utter wash out with a lot more lows than highs. City dominates domestically and Liverpool wins the Champions League. We have the WWC, Copa America, African Cup of Nations, yet every single sports phone in, back page and TV show is dominated by United. This club has been a meal ticket for stooges like Ogden, Custis and that Alice band wearing gob***** Oliver Holt
  12. Jul 8, 2019
    #92

    DomesticTadpole Doom-monger obsessed with Herrera & the M.E.N.

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    Yes. It definitely looks that way. God help that someone actually wants them to run about.
  13. Jul 8, 2019
    #93

    HTG Full Member

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    And so do I. And they are smart enough to take the foot off the gas whenever possible, rotate their midfielders a lot and have extended periods of possession, to get a breather in between. All things you guys don't seem to be doing.
    Also, Klopp carefully measures the workload for his players and while practicing a lot, he gives individual players quite a few breaks during practice.

    And in further defense of your team, the team did fall off a cliff late in the season. That is usually a sign of too much exercise.

    Again, not saying this has to be the case. But it very well could be.
  14. Jul 8, 2019
    #94

    TRUERED89 New Member

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    I understand your viewpoint, but for 6 years we've had the lowest distance covered out of the top 6, maybe even top 10-15.. So what do you propose Ole does?
  15. Jul 8, 2019
    #95

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Man you are just clueless. It was because of how under prepared we were. Like I said go and read few pre season articles on Klopp, Poch, Conte.
  16. Jul 8, 2019
    #96

    Greck Full Member

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    That period where everyone got injured may have been down to overtraining. Hopefully we have modern sport scientists working with the staff. Sports as a whole as moved to load management and rest schedules following high intensity exercises. A strong spirit can't keep a worn ligament from tearing.
  17. Jul 8, 2019
    #97

    Gasolin Full Member

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    I understand where you're coming from, I am also from France, and I don't believe in a all in physical football. But I believe Ole implements a very particular kind of football, again, very similar to Pep's, but he has the experience of SAF and the EPL. He could be a mind blowing coach at the end. Fitness is just a baseline, but it's important if you want to be able to also implement very demanding tactical inputs. I would just wait and see how the preseason goes. I am glad to see the fitness requirement was taken seriously by the lads. It shows something.
  18. Jul 8, 2019
    #98

    HTG Full Member

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    First of all, last place might not be ideal, but you really shouldn't aspire to run the most. Midfield or even behind that should be enough, as long as you don't have rotational options, which you don't. So if there are issues, they are not that bad. Just needs a little work, that's all.
    Now the question is why that is the case. While I don't know much about Moyes, reading about Van Gaal and Mou, I have a hard time believing that they would struggle to get your team up to where it needs to be in terms of conditioning. They aren't idiots and especially Mourinho is known for being quite good at this. I have a hard time believing that a manager could follow Mou and find a team with deficits in conditioning that severe.
    So what I think might be the case is, that Mou and Van Gaal were actually quite happy with your conditioning, especially Van Gaal hates it, when his players run too much, as it fit their strategy. Now OGS is trying to install a different approach and, which happens quite often with inexperienced managers, wants to do too much too fast and expects too much from his players. They obviously complain and then you get articles like this one. That would explain your good start under him and the sudden implosion at the end. Once the enthusiasm dropped off and the players got tired, you started losing.
    Now the question is, what you guys are doing in preseason. You can do quite much, you can practice multiple times a day. Klopp does it, Pep used to do it a lot, but does it a little less nowadays, if I'm right. But you have to be extremely careful here and monitor your players cloesely. And with OGS's background, his inexperience and the necessity to prove himself, I wouldn't be surprised if he's expecting too much and the concerns of your players are legit. He wouldn't be the first young coach, who overwhelms his players. I believe this to be the case. So Ole might be wise, if there are complains from the team, to lower the intensity a bit. Shows that he listens to the team, trusts them and is willing to adapt. It would then be the teams job to prove, that they were right. No excuses.
  19. Jul 8, 2019
    #99

    Eoin McMahon New Member

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    Agreed our fitness levels under Mourinho were suited to how he wanted us to play, which then became an issue when Ole changed to quick counter attacking play which after the winning run just couldn't be maintained as our squad hadn't the fitness levels required. Assuming we will continue with Ole's tactics you can be sure that the players fitness levels will be worked on until they are at the level required for the season. Players who can't or won't adapt can be moved on and any future signings need to suit the model of the team we're trying to build.
  20. Jul 8, 2019

    HTG Full Member

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    Any suggestions? I'm open to anything, as long as it's well researched.
  21. Jul 8, 2019

    DoomSlayer Full Member

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    :lol:
  22. Jul 8, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Well researched? I have given you stats and everything and you deduced we were overworked.

    You are just going with generic and Bayern central points rather than what's happening at ManUtd.3 years in a row we were 20th in distance covered from 3rd/5th under Van Gaal and you blindly go with "can't believe something like that would happen under Jose" when we have watched his team's every game for 3 years and saw what's proven by stats.

    Again did any player complain? No. If anything they have all taken the Individual program seriously. Look at how Shaw reported this season compared to last. One article and you came to conclusion how players feeling is right and completely playing down Ole's work as a player and nearly 10 years as manager.

    10-15 games where we played with tempo, intensity and made sprints more than opponents and our prayers dropped like flies. It was not surprising considering how poor we were under Jose when it comes to pressing, playing with intensity. Again proven by stats.

    Edit: funnily you always ignore the preseason articles on Klopp, Poch, Conte.
  23. Jul 8, 2019

    SteveW Full Member

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    I'm glad to hear they are doing plenty of running. Ignore the clickbait.
  24. Jul 8, 2019

    tomaldinho1 Full Member

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    Agreed. By all accounts they had it easy fitness wise under Mou - we were always lowest/close to bottom for distance covered, high intensity sprints etc as a team. If professional athletes are annoyed that they are unfit, it's their own fault.
  25. Jul 8, 2019

    DoomSlayer Full Member

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    He is trolling us mate, just look at the state of that last post. I actually laughed for real whilst reading it.
  26. Jul 8, 2019

    Gasolin Full Member

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    What makes you say that based on a preseason that focus on bringing the fitness level to the top level again? Did I miss something? Did Ole share something with you that no one else is aware of?
  27. Jul 8, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Looks more likely with every post.
  28. Jul 8, 2019

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    Ogden is full of shit. I wonder why anyone takes him seriously
  29. Jul 8, 2019

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    The players are far from lazy
    But its far from stupid talk to declare they were woefully unfit for the level required of them last season. So I'd actually expect the first few weeks of pre season to be heavy fitness work. Especially without the ball
  30. Jul 8, 2019

    AshRK Full Member

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    Good Job Ole, make these prima donnas run even more. Never thought a day will come where I am not able to connect as a fan with any of our players. Self entitled bunch of players we have.
  31. Jul 8, 2019

    HTG Full Member

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    My point wasn't, that Mou would not have his team run the least, it was that he wouldn't have a team with insufficient conditioning regarding his style, same with Van Gaal. Your team was fit enough, for them. If OGS has a different approach, as he obviously does, that doesn't make your team lazy or anything like this, they are just not where he needs them for his individual approach. Based on that, if he is now increasing the workload or general fitness part of practice, especially within the season, it is absolutely possible that your players were indeed overwhelmed and had every reason to complain. And, as said before, OGS would then be wise to decrease the intensity a little, in order to avoid the disaster that was your season finish. Now in preseason he will obviously increase the workload. But that doesn't mean he can't overwork or overwhelm your team. If there are actual.complaints, as the article suggests, I would lean towards those, who make these complaints. That's all I said. But that's a general thing, as I usually tend to side with the players.

    And you have given me stats without any further source to check where you took them from. And I just looked at our whole discussion, you have not posted a single link to any article in response to me. I have just now seen, that you did so in response to others, but not to me. You also regularly quoted coaches, without giving links to those quotes, as I think should be the case in a discussion like this. I didn't read those posts, as I merely answered posts that quoted me. I apologize for not checking the rest of the thread for your other posts, I think I should have done so, but I really think you could have put in a little more effort as well.
  32. Jul 8, 2019

    #07 makes new threads with tweets in the OP

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    Players crying about doing a bit of running? Then we wonder why we finish f'n 6th.

    Hard work beats talent when talent don't work hard. Simple as.

    More signs of something very rotten at the core of our club's dressing room.
  33. Jul 8, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    I'm not going to spoonfeed you. Go and Google. Wasted enough time already.

    Regarding rest of the post, sorry but same nonsense with no clue whatsoever.

    Again, when did players complain? Nevermind

    Have a good day.
  34. Jul 8, 2019

    UnrelatedPsuedo I pity the poor fool who stinks like I do!

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    You’re looking at the wrong side of the problem.

    Distance covered is not a measure of Team fitness. It’s a potential indicator.

    To analyse your example: Conte probably asks players to press more and push higher. Across 90 minutes that’s a huge increase in distance covered but it’s not a measure of fitness.
  35. Jul 8, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    So Conte's preparation means Chelsea are well equipped to play with intensity, press and cover more distance?
  36. Jul 8, 2019

    HTG Full Member

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    Under these circumstances, it's best to end this. I always assumed it was common practice to provide links to any quotes in a discussion like this, but yeah, it seems more sensible to throw around quotes and numbers and expect the other party to either blindly accept them as true, or have them google some random numbers, which will obviously and with ease point me to their source.
  37. Jul 8, 2019

    UnrelatedPsuedo I pity the poor fool who stinks like I do!

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    No. You miss the point.

    Player A could be capable of covering 10km per match, but if his manager implemented tactics that request him to cover 8.5km, the players fitness is unchanged.
  38. Jul 8, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    It depends on how the team is prepared. All the work in preseason is to get them fitter.

    Any football player can cover 10 KMs. It's covering with intensity, sprints is what matters. That's why the team works so hard in preseason.
  39. Jul 8, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    How hard is it to google, "distance covered by PL clubs 2018-19".
  40. Jul 8, 2019

    ReallyUSA New Member

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    Guys like Pogba, Romelu, and Martial moaning about running? No!