Dominoes draft: R1 - Tuppet vs Sjor/Indy

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Enigma_87, Nov 10, 2017.

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Who would win in the following draft game with all players at their peak?

Poll closed Nov 11, 2017.
  1. Team Tuppet

    70.4%
  2. Team Sjor/Indy

    29.6%
  1. Nov 10, 2017
    #1

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    TEAM TUPPET

    [​IMG]

    VS

    TEAM SJOR / INDY
    [​IMG]

    TACTICS TEAM TUPPET

    A straightforward 4-2-3-1 formation set around the genius of Cruyff. We'll be playing high defensive line and try to play positive attacking football. While holding possession is not the goal with the virtue of my midfield we would have our fair share of possession and we would try to move the ball forward as fast as possible.

    Cruyff is the heart beat of the side, and everything is built around him. Traditionally he is often played as false 9 role as that's the role he played mostly but he was first and foremost a playmaker. which shows in his 36 chances created at WC 1974. If Netherlands had access to a great number 9 I have no doubt that Cryuff would have taken the traditional number 10 position and since we have a great striker to free Cruyff from scoring burden he is free to influence midfield and/or wings as he pleases.

    Up front I have Nistelrooy, deadly finisher whose role is to stay up, push defense back and make room for 3 behind him to do their thing. He doesn't need to be creative or dribble 4 defenders, all he needs to do is to convert the service that is being provided to him from my creative cast and there are very few who can do this job better.

    Boniek and Littbarski are both hard working, creative, mobile wide players who were great dribblers. They would often interchange with Cruyff and each other and can also provide both playmaking and goal scoring from wide areas. Boniek is more direct and provide some excellent off the ball work with his movement and work rate, creating space for Cruyff. Littbarski would be more of a provider with his great dribbling and crossing. Littbarski and Boniek were comfortable on both sides and through the middle, there would be plenty of interchanging and overloading.

    Behind Cruyff we have midfield duo of Davids and Ocwirk. Both were amongst finest midfielders of their generation and deliver a solid base for my attack to act upon with their work rate and technical abilities. I have lot of faith in Davids when it comes to arrest the flow of the game of someone as electric as Laudrup. He was very tenacious, had great athleticism & speed and low center of gravity he could keep up with Laudrup.

    Davids have great help available in the form of Ocwirk. A top class midfielder widely regarded as the greatest post war era player for Austria and the best midfielder of his generation. English media in particular loved him and dubbed him "clockwork" for his consistency. Ocwirk was at the heart of the team which reached the semi-final of the World Cup in 1954. One of the last old-fashioned attacking centre-halves, he was the only other Austrian apart from Sindelaar to make it to Team of the Tournaments. He was also one of the first Austrians to make an impact in Serie A. His style of play later helped to define the position of a holding defensive midfielder. IFFHS voted him 31st greatest European player of the century over the likes of Bozsik and Matthaus.
    Here's a description from Glanville - "In Ernst Ocwirk, tall muscular and dark, possessor of a wonderfully strong and accurate left foot and impeccable technique, last of the great attacking center-halves, they had a player worthy in style and quality of the wunderteam."
    He was also selected as captain of the FIFA XI against England for FAs 90th anniversary match, which also shows how highly he was rated at the time.

    Here Ocwirk's role is to be holder when Davids is roaming around the pitch winning balls, Ocwirk would provide a defensively solid, deep lying playmaking to keep the team ticking.

    Our defense is also very good with two world cup winning full backs in Vogts and Zambrotta, both of who also featured for all star team in those world cups. Both would play as modern fullbacks, defending and attacking in equal measure. Vogts would be slightly more conservative to incorporate Zambrotta's attacking game.

    Thiago Silva and Laurent Blanc forms the defensive pair. Silva with his modern athleticism and all roundedness would play as more aggresive CB, while Blanc is more sweeper-ish and calming presence with his fantastic passing range and dominance in air. Finally In Courtois we have a very reliable young keeper with great reflexes.


    TACTICS TEAM SJOR/INDY

    Formation: 4-2-3-1 (fluid)
    Defensive line: normal
    Style: mixed, team capable of playing both very direct and very possession oriented

    Player profiles and roles:
    GK: Claudio Taffarel -
    One of the best keepers of the 90's. World Champion in 94 and a member of brazilian Hall of Fame.
    LB: Marcelo - Key player in Madrid's back to back CL titles, best modern day wingback alongside Dani Alves. Will have a lot of freedom in the team and should have a great partnership with Nedved.
    RB: Giuseppe Bergomi -Uncle was an extremely versatile defender, who was capable of playing anywhere along the backline although he was primarily a rightback. Quick, athletic, and hard-working player, as a full-back he was known for his strength, stamina and his ability to make attacking runs up the flank, and was also capable of contributing to his team's offensive plays with goals, courtesty of his good right foot and powerful shot from outside the area. Above all, however, Bergomi was known for his excellent man-marking skills.
    Hoettges was playing behind Seeler in WC 66 and Uncle offers everything he offered + more so it should be a great partnership just like on the left side.
    CB: Marcel Desailly - Nicknamed "The Rock", due to his consistency, strength, and hard-tackling playing style, Desailly is considered one of the most accomplished players of his generation, and one of the finest defenders ever, who stood out for his leadership throughout his career. A quick, hard-working and powerful player, who excelled in the air, he combined his aggression, stamina, and ability to read the game, as well as his physical, mental, and defensive skills, with a notable confidence on the ball, which also allowed him to play in the midfield throughout his career.
    CB: Leonardo Bonucci - One of the rare modern defenders that can actually defend. Equally good in both three man defence as well as back four, quality that is very important as he should play in both systems form this team. Bonucci is well known for his technique, passing range, and his ability to launch attacks from the back with his long passes. A tall and strong defender, with a good positional sense, as well as good anticipation, solid tackling, and an ability to read the game and mark opponents, he also excels in the air, and frequently poses a threat from set pieces. He established himself as one of the best defenders in world football, also drawing praise from manager Pep Guardiola, who described Bonucci as one of his "favourite ever players". His unique playing style has led Giovanni Galli to compare him to former sweeper Gaetano Scirea.
    LCM: Paul Scholes - The man needs no introduction, immense footballer. We are using his post 06 version. Probably the most underrated midfielder defensive wise and we dont have to talk about his qualities on the ball. Should enjoy his football in this team and specially paired with Cambiasso who is a good player but will have no problems to let Scholes do all the talking.
    RCM - Esteban Cambiasso - Madrid fans were livid when he left and Inter fans quickly realized why. He was instrumental for them, key player in 5 back to back league titles along with probably their greatest season ever. Defensive b2b player that will do tons of dog work off the ball but is also very capable of playing a good possession game which he showed numerous times for his national team, back in the day when Argentina didnt play like a team managed by Tony Pulis.
    LW: Pavel Nedved - Balon D'or winner from 2003 was a complete, tenacious and consistent two-footed player. Nedved frequently played as a left-sided, offensive wide midfielder or as a left winger throughout his career, due to his crossing ability with his left foot, as well as due to his ability to cut inside and shoot with his right foot, although he was capable of playing anywhere in midfield due to his offensive and defensive work-rate.
    RWF: Uwe Seeler - Probably my favorite "classic" player, you couldnt ask for a better teammate and im pretty sure 99% of the players that played with him would put him in their ideal XI. Teamwork and Workrate at the highest level, and while he was pretty short he was immense in the air, every goalkick would go towards him and more often then not he would win the aerial duel against a much taller defender. But he was brilliant on the ball as well, most often a victim of his own brilliance and selflessness as he would play smart passes and make smart runs but would be ignored by others as they didnt understand that way of playing. Probably the reason why he had such a great partnership with Kaiser, both on the same wave length. Although mainly a striker Uwe was capable playing anywhere in the offensive line and he played this specific role in WC 66 for which he was awarded with a place in the WC All-Star team.
    #10/AM - Michael Laudrup - A quick, intelligent and talented midfielder, known for his pace on the ball, Laudrup is regarded as one of the most effective and versatile attacking midfielders, as well as one of the most skillful and elegant players in the history of the game. Although primarily an offensive playmaker, he was capable of playing in several positions in or behind the front-line. Laudrup is considered by many as one of the best passers of all time, and as one of the most technically accomplished players ever.
    Throughout his career, Laudrup was acclaimed for his technique, balance, elegance, vision, ball control, deep passes and dribbling ability. In regard to his vision, Jorge Valdano Argentinian coach of Laudrup in Real Madrid, said, "[H]e has eyes everywhere." His trademark move – looking one way and passing the other – fooled countless opponents during his career. The Laudrup dribble, a feint also known as the croqueta, was perhaps the best-known part of his game, and involved him quickly moving the ball from one foot to the other away from the defender. Back to his passing, numerous teammates of his have said, "Just run, he will always find a way of passing you the ball." Here we got to the most important part, Seeler and specially Eto'o is a match made in heaven.
    CF - Samuel Eto'o - running and goalscoring machine. With the speed and quality of his final third movement and the creative supporting cast he has goals shouldnt be the problem in this team. In addition to that i can see him having a great partnership with Uwe and their constant swapping of positions should be a big asset.

    Tactics and advantages:
    Defence -
    a more then solid back four consisting of a perfect stopper/sweeper combo, wingback and a full back that can support the attack as well as dropping back and forming a back three. One big asset is also that all 4 players are great possession wise so playing from the back, playing under pressure and launching quick counters wont be an issue.

    Midfield - Ginger prince paired with a player that funnily enough has certain(important) qualities of both long term midfield partners Scholes had during his career. Playing and defensive style similar to Keane and a mental side of Carrick. Even though both are more then good on the ball(Carrick more so then Cambiasso though) when paired with a better or a more dominant partner they will sacrifice their game to the benefit of the team and let the midfield alpha run the game.

    Attack: Hard to decide where the attack is stronger, on goal threat or in of the ball side of the game that is often neglected by the masses.

    Advantages:
    • Potentially great partnership throughout the whole team.
    • Team capable of playing very different styles of football as well as the team that is very strong both on and off the ball.
    • Goal threats, all sorts of goal threats - going behind(Eto'o), individual skill(Eto'o, Laudrup), in the box(Eto'o, Seeler), aerial threat(Seeler) and from distance(Nedved, Scholes).
  2. Nov 10, 2017
    #2

    Enigma_87 You know who

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  3. Nov 10, 2017
    #3

    Moby Dick

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    Why is Seeler out wide?
  4. Nov 10, 2017
    #4

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    Whats the issue?
  5. Nov 10, 2017
    #5

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers

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    Well built team from Tuppet.

    Bit more to think on Sjor/Ind team.
    - Left footed Cambiasso on right? Ideally the duo should be swapped. Laudrup will drift Left and Scholes on right can have room to make his late runs to the box..
    - And not really sold on Bergomi/Seeler flank. I'd have swapped the wingers too. Nedved's workrate should help Bergomi play a tucked in role, which in turn should free Marcelo who can provide width on other flank. Lopsided, but more balanced.
  6. Nov 10, 2017
    #6

    Indnyc Full Member

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    The front 4 is quite fluid with players having the ability to interchange. Seeler could easily interchange with Eto’o
  7. Nov 10, 2017
    #7

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    cheers, good luck @Tuppet
    btw as its the two of us, we agreed indi is the one that will handle the debate and i will only participate in Seeler debate as im more familiar with him.
  8. Nov 10, 2017
    #8

    Indnyc Full Member

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    Cambiasso and Scholes will again be switching as required as both are equally comfortable on both sides. Cambiasso played a lot as a RCM

  9. Nov 10, 2017
    #9

    Indnyc Full Member

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  10. Nov 10, 2017
    #10

    idmanager Full Member

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    Nah, Scholesy's passing range is much better from the left side of the pitch.
  11. Nov 10, 2017
    #11

    Moby Dick

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    If it is between Eto'o and Seeler I would have the former out wide who played there at the highest level, and Seeler is much better in the middle especially his aerial ability.
  12. Nov 10, 2017
    #12

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Cheers. Nice template you two :D
  13. Nov 10, 2017
    #13

    Gio 4 times Redcafe Draft Winner

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    @Šjor Bepo Any more on Seeler playing this role in '66?

    Good match-up this, well balanced.
  14. Nov 10, 2017
    #14

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    As we said it in the OP, its a fluid attack so both will have a lot of chances in the middle as we want them to interchange during the game. At the end of the day we prefer Eto'o in the middle a bit more as we think his final third movement and pace is a fantastic asset considering the creative support he has from the back.
    As for the level of playing, if WC isnt the highest level i dont know what is.
  15. Nov 10, 2017
    #15

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    BTW Seeler played all over the attack in 1970 being the provider for Muller. He was running non stop playing like a second striker and was roaming all over the attack.

    With that being said tho he loved to cut in and in this set up makes more sense to have Nedved on the right, given that Bergomi is more conservative full back and Seeler to be inside left with Marcelo overlapping.
  16. Nov 10, 2017
    #16

    Indnyc Full Member

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    I don't think it makes much of a difference though.. Nedved can cut inside allowing Marcelo to overlap on the left. Bergomi can be the conservative full back with Seeler allowed to have a lot of freedom
  17. Nov 10, 2017
    #17

    Indnyc Full Member

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    I think the key battle is in the midfield. Scholes and Cambiasso form a perfect partnership allowing Laudrup ahead to work his magic. With his passing range, scholes will open defensive gaps. Seeler on the right will take advantage of Zambrotta's forward runs.
  18. Nov 10, 2017
    #18

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    They played some strange 4240 in 66 without a classic striker. Kaiser and Overath in the engine room, Seeler switching between right and center, Emmerich on the left and two headless chickens Haller and Held dropping everywhere. He was awarded with a spot in WC All-Star Team and rightly so as he was comfortably their best player alongside Beckenbauer. Oh and as enigma says, this wasnt the only one he played there, did the same when Gerd Muller was leading the line. If we placed him on the left people would moan how he never played there. Nedved is great on the left as Marcelo would benefit more from having a hardworking midfielder rather then hardworking attacker. Bergomi on the other hand is more then good/capable enough to balance his game between providing support(although Seeler proved he can do without it) and dropping back to form a 3 man defence when Marcelo bombs down the left.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  19. Nov 10, 2017
    #19

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    If people dont have time or just dont want to watch those highlights, @Joga Bonito is probably the only one alongside me that watched them all so you can hear unbiased opinion as well.
  20. Nov 10, 2017
    #20

    oneniltothearsenal Full Member

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    4231 vs 4231 is always a bit of a stalemate tactically for me. Sjor's attack I think has more about it but then again Cruyff.
    Also @Šjor Bepo I thought Seeler was more a second striker in 66 than right wing?

    [​IMG]

    EDIT: ah nevermind you just posted a bunch of videos, I will watch those
  21. Nov 10, 2017
    #21

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    he wasnt an out and out winger, he was switching between right wing and some sort of right inside forward position as Haller and Held played literally everywhere. So pretty much the same role we have for him.
  22. Nov 10, 2017
    #22

    harms Full Member

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    Can you link your Seeler videos here, please? Haven't got a chance to look at his performance against the Soviet Union and it would be interesting to see him in this position @Šjor Bepo
    My recollection was that he way playing up front, even though he regularly dropped back/out wide

    edit: should've refreshed the page first
  23. Nov 10, 2017
    #23

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Yeah I was going purely by aesthetics. He can cover multiple positions in attack and interchange with Eto'o.
  24. Nov 10, 2017
    #24

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    of course out of all games i forget to put that one:lol: will edit in a second.
  25. Nov 10, 2017
    #25

    Indnyc Full Member

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    Another point on the midfield battle, i would argue that ocwirk was more of an attacking midfielder in modern football terms rather than a box to box midfielder.

    Through the later half of his career he became more and more attack minded rather than a defensive player.
  26. Nov 10, 2017
    #26

    Indnyc Full Member

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    @Tuppet

    Couple of questions. In your OP you mention, Ocwirk helped define the role of a defensive midfielder but most references to him seem to be a more attacking midfielder. In the 1950's when he arguably was in his prime, he was shifted more forward to make way for more defensive midfielders.

    http://www.world-football-legends.co.uk/index.php/aut/90-ocwirk-ernst

    Also, you mention Cryuff's main role here is to assist rather than score himself. I.e. the goal scoring responsibility lies mainly on Ruud who has both Bonucci and Desailly to track him. Cambiasso will have a lot more ease to deal with Cryuff alone (like he dealt with Messi without having to worry about Iniesta/Xavi) as presumably Davids is occupied by Scholes. Boniek on your left is going to be against Bergomi which is an even battle.

    There are a lot of small battles here and i believe Laudrup makes a massive difference especially as the opposition doesn't have a dedicated defensive midfielder to block him. He would run the game for us and has the ideal setup to do so. The goal threat for us would come primarily from Eto'o and Seeler but also from the long range shooting of Scholes and Nedved.
  27. Nov 10, 2017
    #27

    Tuppet Full Member

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  28. Nov 10, 2017
    #28

    Tuppet Full Member

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    I just took it from many sources, but the link that you have here says the same thing in first paragraph -
    In the W-M formation inside forwards are roughly attacking midfielders and center halfs are defensive midfielders-
    [​IMG]

    He took the attacking center half position which was a corner stone of the chapman tactic and was mostly on its way out but was still a widely popular tactic in Hungary, Austria and South America. Today attacking center half could either be a ball playing defender or defensive midfielder. It was a player who dropped between the two fullbacks while defending. In this world cup match for example wiki even list him as a defender - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria_v_Switzerland_(1954_FIFA_World_Cup)
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  29. Nov 10, 2017
    #29

    Tuppet Full Member

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    Yeah its true Cruyff's main role is to be playmaker, that has always been his main role throughout his career. He is ofcourse hell of a goal threat, much more than usual number 10s, which is what makes him unique. I very much doubt that Cambiasso can easily keep pace with him and Davids can not with Laudrup. When both Cruyff and Davids are better players than Laudrup and Cambiasso, so I don't know how that works out.
  30. Nov 10, 2017
    #30

    Indnyc Full Member

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    I didn't say Davids cannot deal with Laudrup. I said Davids will have Scholes to deal with which would leave Laudrup space to exploit. My point about Cambiasso was he is perfectly capable of dealing with Cryuff especially since he doesn't have other midfield runners.
  31. Nov 10, 2017
    #31

    Indnyc Full Member

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    In addition to a very good midfield base, we have three exceptional passers.





    behind this beast

  32. Nov 10, 2017
    #32

    harms Full Member

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    It's not like he forbids him to shoot or to score, it's just that he hasn't made him a main goalthreat, which is fair enough. I'm pretty sure than Neeskens outscored him in a few seasons (and, of course, in the World Cup), even though some of those goals were penalties. He still is the likeliest matchwinner here.
  33. Nov 10, 2017
    #33

    Indnyc Full Member

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    I didn't mean Cruff won't shoot or score.. I meant that a lot of the responsibility to score lies with Ruud who is covered well with 2 strong center backs
  34. Nov 10, 2017
    #34

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Good match up this. The first match so far where I've had no gut feeling either way as to who I'll end up voting for.
  35. Nov 10, 2017
    #35

    oneniltothearsenal Full Member

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    Great videos @Šjor Bepo.

    Those have convinced to vote for your side because I think your offense has too much for Tuppet's defense and his offense is more easily contained by the 4231 vs 4231 and going against superior personnel (I rate Desailly-Bonucci+Eto'o > Blanc-Silva+Ruud).

    Now that I see Seeler's playstyle in this role I think your attack will score more goals consistently than Tuppet's attack. Nedved-Eto'o-Seeler is a great synergy imo.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  36. Nov 10, 2017
    #36

    harms Full Member

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    Yeah, even the good old player for player comparison doesn't really give you a straight answer
  37. Nov 10, 2017
    #37

    Tuppet Full Member

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    Davids would have Scholes to deal with in the same way Cambiasso would have Ocwirk to deal with. The version of Scholes that you are using (post 06) was not really a midfield runner breaking free toward opposition but more of a deep lying playmaker running the game using his passing, which is a very similar role to what Ocwirk is playing here. Ocwirk was also a pretty good goal threat and had impeccable passing from deep and Davids himself was brilliant runner from midfield.

  38. Nov 10, 2017
    #38

    Indnyc Full Member

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    What is comes down to is the passing/ability to dictate play from midfield and i feel Scholes does that better than either Davids or Ocwirk. In addition, i would expect Nedved to drift inside to overload the midfield and allow Marcelo to attack the flanks
  39. Nov 10, 2017
    #39

    Tuppet Full Member

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    That may be so, although its really not cut and dried that Ocwirk had less passing ability than Scholes, but that was not the question I was answering with my post. the midfield of Davids and Ocwirk has to deal with Laudrup and Scholes while the midfield of Scholes and Cambiasso has to deal with Cruyff and Ocwirk. There is not really a big enough advantage for either side here. Cruyff had more work rate, better big game mentality and was overall a better player than Laudrup and would contribute in the midfield more. I think Cambiasso is in for a very very torrid time against him.
  40. Nov 10, 2017
    #40

    Indnyc Full Member

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    I would argue that it’s pretty much cut and dry that Scholes is the better passer.

    I agree there isn’t much of an advantage for either side. If Cambiasso struggles against Cryuff then Orwick struggles against Laudrup.

    If we talk about better big game mentality then Silva is probably the weakest link as he time and again has failed on the big stage and would struggle against the interchanging Eto’o and Seeler